Haldex vs Torsion

[SEXICÄN]

which is better, which one would (not did) u choose and why?

READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION!

[SEXICÄN]

i'll start off by addressing which cars use what (that i know of)

Haldex:
~Subaru~
WRS's (2.5RS, STI)
~Mitsubishi~
Lancer Evolution
~Audi~
TT
A3
A4 FrontTrack(i believe)
A6 FrontTrack(i believe)
~VW~
R32


Torsion
~Audi~
A3 3.2(i believe)
A4 quattro
A6 quattro
A8
S4
RS4
RS6
Q7
S6
R8 (Le Mans)


Not sure of these companies:
~MercedezBenz~
4Matic
~VW~
4Motion
~Mitsubishi~
Eclipse GSX
3000GT
~Nissan~
300ZX

if there are any make/models i forgot to mension or u know where t put one of them, let me know and ill change it.

side note: CARS USING 4X4 TECHNOLOGY IN THIER CARS DON'T COUNT such as:
~Lexus~
IS250 AWD (that AWD is the same as whats in the RX Models


SO LET THE DISCUSSION /DEBATE BEGIN!

[chuckdawg82]

torsion for me. Reason? I dont know. Its cool that haldex is FWD and then AWD when you need it. But all at the same time it makes me wonder what kind of algorythm they used to determine when exactly the AWD system kicks in. I test drove the Volvo S40 and was not satisfied with the Haldex. I actually test drove it and as I was test driving it started to snow a little. Ground got slushy and some nasty traction. I drove a little more aggressively to see how it did. Let me say, even though the S40 has less weight to throw around, the Haldex definitely does not adequately maintain the stability of the chasis. I actually got some drifting and complete lack of traction a couple of times. and this is in light snow. I've had my car in heavy snow up in snoqualmie and I'm definitely happy with my full time AWD. In snow, in rain, in dry.

But if you want to save gas and get a little more speed, haldex is the way.

[Grouse]

Psssht.

you missed one.
and the one i would pick

http://www.arb.com.au/air_locker_design_engineering.htm

ARB. if i'm going to have a true 4 wheel drive i want ARB

[SEXICÄN]

U IDIOT, we are only talking about haldex and torsin.

[Grouse]

How does your in capability to make a good poll make me an idiot.

I'm sorry, but you just need to be spanked.


















<whack>

[biturbo hero]

TORSEN

torque sensing diff.

haldex sucks.
there is no argument. the only reasion audi uses it is cuz the stupid sideways motors in TTs

[SEXICÄN]

what about the 2.0T A3? yes i know its fwd, but why not make it awd?

[chubbychynk]

I had an R32 and didn't like the feel. FWD most of the time and when you stepped on it you could feel the power kick to the rear. Understeer to oversteer. Fun for a while but it gets old and doesn't inspire confidence. Maybe the RWD bias in the Sub and Mits would be better, but I haven't tried those yet so Torsen gets my vote.

[SEXICÄN]

its 0 for haldex and 8 for torsion already, lol

Haldex sucks

[Tifosi]

1) Its Subaru WRX not WRS. Also, IIRC, the STi's are Torsen instead of Haldex as in the regular WRX.

2) Torsen system are mechanical instead of electronically controlled. Torsen reacts quicker and to condition changes as oppose to Haldex tends to be more passive. Basically, Torsen are better than Haldex. They can handle more power than Haldex with the downside of extra weight and more expensive to build.

3) Haldex systems tends to be used on vehicles that started life as either a FWD (Such as A3 or TT) or RWD (X-drive for BMWs). They uses three open electronic differentials to send/switch power around accordingly. I have read somewhere that Audi's future policy on the Quattros will be: Haldex < 250hp > Torsen. Not sure if this is in place already or not, Nico can probably confirm this better, considering he is working at an Audi dealership now.

[SEXICÄN]

At the VW Group, all quattro models at or below 250 hp get transverse engines and a Haldex center differential; anything above 250 hp sits longitudinally and gets a Torsen differential

Hope that helps

[durfA4]

Sorry man not to rain on your parade but there are more than just Haldex or Torsen Center Diffs
Subaru and mitsu use an electronic with varible setting in the STI and EVO MR

the rest use a viscous Coupled open diff

Haldex is a VW Name for electronic Diff

Torsen is used by AUDI, and Hummer, and Few select VW eg. Toureg and Phateon.

Quaife is similar to Torsen

So the question is not would you pick Torsen but how much does the Haldex SUCK.

[Grouse]

ARB you wankers

[Railslider]

^^Good call

[SEXICÄN]

yes i realize there are different types of awd systems, but this thread is just about haldex and torsen( if you missed the point).

yes i know that some systems also use fwd with a torsen rear axel differ., and other such variations, but please stick to Haldex and Torsen, thanks.

[SEXICÄN]

along with all that, audi isnt the only company that uses "torsen": celica GT4, Diablo VT, etc.

[jsamans]

Originally posted by SEXICAN
At the VW Group, all quattro models at or below 250 hp get transverse engines and a Haldex center differential; anything above 250 hp sits longitudinally and gets a Torsen differential

Hope that helps

A4 2.0t quattro is only 200 hp and I don't think it has Haldex....

The Audi frontraks are all front wheel drive only.

The A3 3.2 is transverse mounted and uses Haldex.

You should know this stuff!

Sincerely, Jimmy Barrier

[Hassmeister]

Originally posted by jsamans
A4 2.0t quattro is only 200 hp and I don't think it has Haldex....

The Audi frontraks are all front wheel drive only.

The A3 3.2 is transverse mounted and uses Haldex.

You should know this stuff!

Sincerely, Jimmy Barrier

^^^ yea right, Jimmy don't know schmidt.

[SEXICÄN]

Eh, lol

[im_cecil]

Yeah, perhaps you should really consider reviewing your training materials if you're going to sell the stuff. This is pathetic. Shame on you.

It's TORSEN, not Torsion.

The A3 uses Haldex.

Why in the world would FrontTrak cars have Haldex (from your list)? Uh, Haldex is an all-wheel drive system. A FrontTrak with Haldex doesn't even make sense.

You won't get very far telling people that Haldex sucks when, uh, the TTs which you are purportedly selling have that system.

VW's 4Motion in the Passat is the same as the Torsen system in the A4/A6/A8. You did know that 4Motion and quattro are just marketing terms, right? And that either name can and does refer to either Haldex or Torsen.

As others have noted, there are many other all wheel drive systems. People will cross-shop the Mercedes 4Matic system with quattro (again, just brand names) regularly. It would behoove you to be able to speak intelligently about them instead of just saying one sucks or that you don't know anything about 4Matic. And other companies use Haldex. Do they suck too? Or, sticking to the discussion, per your request, are you just ignoring them?

[SEXICÄN]

No training has happened yet so get off my nuts!

Talk about mr. know it all. I'm going to point you at a website that states that the 4motion and the quattro in A4 A6 and A8 are in fact NOT the same. Please do more research before you try and make a valid point. http://www.geocities.com/gkurka2001/...tion_4wd_2.htm

im_cecil, i know some cars out there(Hyundai. Kia. etc) that suck very badly, but if i was selling those i wouldn't tell every customer i had they did. You have got to be one of the most idiotic, stupidest people here to open your mouth and to post anything up here in the PNW, i think you should stick with posting in the South West forum where no one cares what you think(just like they think here).

Like i said before, i love it how everyone will criticise me just becuase i work for audi, but go on everyone, fill free to take shots all you want, i'm a big boy, i can take it.

As for the names of system, quattro, 4matic, 4motion, etc, yes i know they are terms used by the man. I was born 2 days ago, not yesterday

Lets take a look at other AWD systems just to make you happy im-cecil:
Porsche PSK (Hydro-Electronic differential clutch)
Mercedes 4-Matic
Nissan Skyline GT-R's ATTESA E-TS PRO
Volkswagen-Haldex system(Volkswagen's 4motion)
Honda's SH-4WD system
Viscous Coupling differential
Viscous Coupling Differential Lock
Torsen differential - Audi Quattro system

There might be more, but thats not what this thread was talking about.


To end this all with im_cecil, unless you can make a valid point in your post, please don't post in the PNW again unless you can actually post some facts. THANKS

[SEXICÄN]

THis is also from that site:

quattro:










4motion:

[SEXICÄN]

sure i may be wrong on some parts, but who is right 100% of the time. Obviously your not.

Back on topic: I choose "TORE-TION"

And i would hate for audi to make their vehicales in to the cheaper haldex systems of quattro, but who knows

[im_cecil]

Ha Ha!!

So you wish Audi would not use the cheaper and inferior Haldex? What do you think is already in the TT and the A3? What're you going to tell potential customers? Gee, they're both called quattro. How can that be???

Besides the obvious engineering differences, the choice between the 2 has absolutely nothing to do with horsepower, as you claimed in an earlier post. The Haldex system works on transverse mounted engines. Conversely, Torsen can only be applied to longitude configurations. So by your claim, somehow Audi will magically put Torsen on the upcoming A3 3.2?

And BTW, 4Motion as installed in the B5 VW Passat is Torsen. Magic, huh? Guess what, the engine is longitudinally mounted.

My point was not to inject other all-wheel drive systems into your discussion, per your wishes. But rather to show that your treatment of the 2 systems that you want to discuss is misguided and severely lacking. No, you are not expected to know everything, but given that perhaps you should consider being a bit more humble and not repeatedly tell people that they are idiots and should shut the hell up when they try to provide you with correct information. If that's going to be your sales technique, coupled with highly spotty product knowledge, then good luck to you. (Again, Haldex in front wheel drive cars?)

"Mr. Customer, Haldex sucks. Audi doesn't use it -- it's left to their downmarket brand, VW."
"Oh, what about the A3? That looks cute."
"That has Torsen. Much better."

People would not be jumping all over you and would be more polite to if you were to them. Give to get. You asked for additions and corrections, but don't accept them very well. So the Northwest forum is your own private club? I just stumbled in here. Why would you put a technical post in a regional forum? Only Northwest people know anything about cars?

[chuckdawg82]

im_cecil...

I think as a salesperson sexican here is smart enough not to say haldex sucks to his customers. I work on the sales floor part time at CC, i know not to say stupid sh!t as to discourage buying one product over the other. If a customer likes it, you agree. Sales is as simple as that. Once the customers sets a target, you sell it to them.

The whole transverse-longitudinal thing, he said:

"At the VW Group, all quattro models at or below 250 hp get transverse engines and a Haldex center differential; anything above 250 hp sits longitudinally and gets a Torsen differential"

...He did mention Haldex on transverse and torsen on longitudinal. But as far as the hp "line" I'm also skeptic about that.

As for putting a technical post in the NW forum. We can post whatever the hell we want here...who said you had the right to critique what our topics are? or perhaps we want to discuss by ourselves. what...do you feel left out?

[SEXICÄN]

who are you im_cecil? Why are you even in here. What is your point by making pointless posts?

Sorry Cecil since you probably have a TT and your bitter about not having TORSEN, but leave the PNW alone with you bitter ranting

[SEXICÄN]

That post about the VW Group, was just talk.... HENCE WHY I SAID EXACTLY FROM VW GROUP

[SEXICÄN]

Originally posted by im_cecil
Ha Ha!!

So you wish Audi would not use the cheaper and inferior Haldex? What do you think is already in the TT and the A3? What're you going to tell potential customers? Gee, they're both called quattro. How can that be???

Besides the obvious engineering differences, the choice between the 2 has absolutely nothing to do with horsepower, as you claimed in an earlier post. The Haldex system works on transverse mounted engines. Conversely, Torsen can only be applied to longitude configurations. So by your claim, somehow Audi will magically put Torsen on the upcoming A3 3.2?

And BTW, 4Motion as installed in the B5 VW Passat is Torsen. Magic, huh? Guess what, the engine is longitudinally mounted.

My point was not to inject other all-wheel drive systems into your discussion, per your wishes. But rather to show that your treatment of the 2 systems that you want to discuss is misguided and severely lacking. No, you are not expected to know everything, but given that perhaps you should consider being a bit more humble and not repeatedly tell people that they are idiots and should shut the hell up when they try to provide you with correct information. If that's going to be your sales technique, coupled with highly spotty product knowledge, then good luck to you. (Again, Haldex in front wheel drive cars?)

"Mr. Customer, Haldex sucks. Audi doesn't use it -- it's left to their downmarket brand, VW."
"Oh, what about the A3? That looks cute."
"That has Torsen. Much better."

People would not be jumping all over you and would be more polite to if you were to them. Give to get. You asked for additions and corrections, but don't accept them very well. So the Northwest forum is your own private club? I just stumbled in here. Why would you put a technical post in a regional forum? Only Northwest people know anything about cars?

I wish audi would make a $20,000 race car with 500hp and 485ft. lbs, but wishes don't always come true..

As for me saying that the Haldex is cheaper(which it is) but inferior? Not once did i say that. Don't put words into my mouth if thats the way you feel about the system.

I personally never said that about them putting Haldex in under powered cars(that was from AutoWeek and THEY(AutoWeek) talked to a VW GROUP. I guess you forgot i work for AUDI and not VW, how would I personally be able to talk to a VW group about that?

"The car featured sophisticated 4-link front suspension, designed to eliminate torque steering. All wheel drive was later introduced as an option, using an expensive Torsen center differential which helps avoid loss of traction by using a 50:50 power distribution under normal conditions, and gave excellent superior handling on slick surfaces. The B5 Passat shared its platform with the Audi A4. Power came from entirely new 1.8, 2.0, 2.3 and 2.8 petrol engines, including a 1.8 L turbocharged 4-cylinder, or 2.8 L V6. The 1.8 L engine in the Passat and Audi A4 has a lower oil capacity than transverse applications of the same engine, and suffers from oil sludge problems as a result. Two transmission options were available: a 5-speed manual and a 5-speed automatic transmission."

To add to that, the passat having Torsen being "magic"? hardly. it would be stupid of VW/AUDI to change that system for the B5 Passat and the B5 A4(being on same platform). Think about it money wise, it wouldn't be the smartest thing to make one with haldex and change it to torsen for A4. God you must not be very educated if you didn't come up with that conclusion all on your own.

Your knowledge of me makes me laugh. Please continue with your feble rants about how "good i am as a salesman". it makes me smile to know i'm not a moron like yourself. Unlike the obvious, i'm not in my region forum trying to tell everyone that Haldex sucks and Torsen is SO FAR SUPIERIOR or to prove that i'm in any way smarter than anyone else. You come in here for 2 days and you already "know me" don't cha. Get a clue.

What also makes me laugh is how you think "this is how i'm going to sell cars". But i guess your right, that is how i'm going to sell cars. You honestly must not be one of the smartest people to be in the South West if your assuming thats what i am going to say to customers.. Do you think that even more than 90% of the clientel are going to give two shits and a fuck about what the B5 4motion Passat had for their AWD system? If you think yes, then please don't post in the PNW regional again. Your just making yourself look stupider and stupider by every post. Please stop trying to make all these assumptions about my "spotty product knowledge" and the way i sell cars.

Obviously you have never seen me sell cars so how, in your right mind, would this be what i'm saying:

""Mr. Customer, Haldex sucks. Audi doesn't use it -- it's left to their downmarket brand, VW."
"Oh, what about the A3? That looks cute."
"That has Torsen. Much better.""

The peolpe here in the PNW give me shit CAUSE THEY KNOW ME and we are here to help one another out with mistakes/incorrect info/etc. Since your new to the PNW and to AZ(as it appears) you wouldn't realize that now would you. The people in this regional forum are actually close related and are friends. Obviosly your not from around here and wouldn't know this, but that is your stupidity to not read our other threads to find out how we are as a regional section here on AZ. Sorry this section isn't like your South West, maybe you would be more "respected" down there than you are with your post up here.

You will notice that more of the people in this section is going to side with me on this comment about us being friends(except Grouse cause he is jealous of the Half Mexican half Polish people here ), cause in fact we are. I can honestly say that i have met more than 75% of the people in this regional section where as you can say you have met what % of people in the South West? EXACTLY. Keep it civil as we were before you started posting, thanks.

Nico

(my negativity is now gone towards im_cecil and now ready to get back to what this thread is really about)


Back on topic, i really do hope audi doesn't change anyting about using Torsen. I would be more than happy to pay the extra money for it rather than save on money for some electronic AWD.

[Zapjackson]

Well, me being the new owner of an S4 coming from an R32 with Haldex, I would have to say that it really depends on what you need. I mean with the Haldex unit im assuming you get better gas mileage.....but maybe thats just the V8, coming from the VR . The Haldex unit seemed to be constantly working, changing torque from front to back when things get slippery. But I'm also positive that the Torsen would be able to handle higher HP, and be less likely to have problems. And it's also nice to know that Audi has been using this system for quite a while, and only recently started using the Haldex in a wider array of cars. So i think it all is a matter of opinion here. There really isn't a good or bad. I think I remember hearing about a promotional thing with Audi/VW that stuck a car with Torsen and a car with Haldex in the mud, and the Haldex seemed to do better getting out. But i did like the aftermarket Haldex controllers! My .02!

In the end: Id take Torsen.....just because of the fact that it is simpler.....and its got history.

[Jifffy]

front wheel drive owns joo