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  1. #201
    Deactivated Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    Yes and no. UM is out, Jeff is no longer interested as he thinks the fueling is inadequate despite my setup having more rail pressure and injector flow than the MK6 platform that was easily making 400whp???? It sounds like he has other interests to pursue as he's blown off a few other people with BT setups lately. Eurodynamic said they would do it but are swamped until September. I contacted GIAC and they are now interested as they want to develop their bluetooth-flash at home dongle for the B8/B8.5. They are in the process of moving locations and said they would be ready at the end of August. I'm just patiently waiting at this point. The car drives good and I'm hitting 267 g/sec on the MAF up from 220 g/sec on the stock setup that made 290who/335wtq so that roughly equates to around 350whp on 18psi.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Audizine mobile app
    Pretty much what I've been told by Jeff @United. Mirza is back on the bandwagon with mine.

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  2. #202
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casey_tuzziano View Post
    Pretty much what I've been told by Jeff @United. Mirza is back on the bandwagon with mine.

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    "Good evening ladies and gentlemen and thank you for joining the game of the unknown, of longsuffering, of broken promises, of close but no cigar chicanery......you guessed it......"musical tuners"
    350.jpeg

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  3. #203
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    The car drives good and I'm hitting 267 g/sec on the MAF up from 220 g/sec on the stock setup that made 290who/335wtq so that roughly equates to around 350whp on 18psi.
    The K04 hits 290 g/s or more of MAF easily. How do you figure that 267 g/s nets you 350 whp?

    Your stage 2 dyno'd 290 whp? That's epic. Which tune?
    2011 B8 A4 ZF8HP // JHM K04-R // APR v3.1 // 034 HFC // Treadstone TR8 FMIC // Snow Performance Stage 2 WM Injection // Bilstein B12 Pro-kit // Borla Downpipe // // Rockford 8" Woofers // JL 10" Sub // 2200 W // Audison BitOne DSP

  4. #204
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4x View Post
    The K04 hits 290 g/s or more of MAF easily. How do you figure that 267 g/s nets you 350 whp?

    Your stage 2 dyno'd 290 whp? That's epic. Which tune?
    Stage 1+ GIAC E85 race map.
    60% ethanol. Intake/downpipe/FMIC/Meth
    Mustang dyno chart below.

    Running the same ethanol content, I just divided the HP (290) by the MAF g's/sec (220) to get a HP/(g/sec) number then multiplied that by the new peak (267) MAF g/sec. It's just a rough estimate, it could be really rough.
    Keep in mind with Ethanol, the power output per G/sec is far different than gasoline since there is far more energy there with each compression stroke. Its only running 17-18psi across the board.tapatalk_jpeg_1518715796704.jpeg

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  5. #205
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    Stage 1+ GIAC E85 race map.
    60% ethanol. Intake/downpipe/FMIC/Meth
    Mustang dyno chart below.

    Running the same ethanol content, I just divided the HP (290) by the MAF g's/sec (220) to get a HP/(g/sec) number then multiplied that by the new peak (267) MAF g/sec. It's just a rough estimate, it could be really rough.
    Keep in mind with Ethanol, the power output per G/sec is far different than gasoline since there is far more energy there with each compression stroke. Its only running 17-18psi across the board.tapatalk_jpeg_1518715796704.jpeg

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Audizine mobile app
    With ethanol there is actually 30% less energy than gasoline. The reason you can make more power with it is you can advance timing more... but youd see all this in g/s. You can log actual timing too. If you're seing upwards of 22 degrees its taking advantage of the ethanol. You need to be running a tune that specifically takes advantage of this in other words

    https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/et...el_basics.html

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  6. #206
    Active Member Two Rings
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    You get more energy with E85 for each stroke at stoichiometric air fuel ratio

    see those calculation from Nasioc:

    Ethanol specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures is actually higher than gasoline allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned than gasoline.

    Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1
    Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1
    Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb 6.429:1

    If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference.
    100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100%
    100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127% more heat energy
    100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9% more heat energy

    Those are not from me they come from here:
    https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=803341

  7. #207
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars2 View Post
    You get more energy with E85 for each stroke at stoichiometric air fuel ratio

    see those calculation from Nasioc:

    Ethanol specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures is actually higher than gasoline allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned than gasoline.

    Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1
    Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1
    Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb 6.429:1

    If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference.
    100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100%
    100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127% more heat energy
    100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9% more heat energy

    Those are not from me they come from here:
    https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=803341


    You're quoting a random person's post. Of which their own data does not agree.

    They talk about both fuels at stoichiometric and then they compare gasoline at 12.5:1 and e85 at 6.9:1 or almost twice the amount of e85 burning compared to gasoline. Neither one at stoichiometric. and no one here is running anywhere near 6.9:1 air fuel ratios.

    Here are some sources, like the AFDC...

    https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fu...ison_chart.pdf

    Ethanol and fuels like E85. 1.5 gallons of ethanol has the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. A flex-fuel vehicle will experience about 76% of the fuel mileage MPG when using E85 (85% ethanol) products as compared to 100% gasoline. ... Pure ethanol provides 2/3 of the heat value available in pure gasoline.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  8. #208
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    With ethanol there is actually 30% less energy than gasoline. The reason you can make more power with it is you can advance timing more... but youd see all this in g/s. You can log actual timing too. If you're seing upwards of 22 degrees its taking advantage of the ethanol. You need to be running a tune that specifically takes advantage of this in other words

    https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/et...el_basics.html

    Mike
    https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...php?p=13064894

    Mike,

    We talked about all this a few months ago on here and I would encourage you to read through some of it and offer any information that may have been missed. I mostly agree with you except MAF g/'s are not as reliable an indicator of power with ethanol. I was only making 220g/sec running 60% ethanol and 14* of timing on stage 1 but made 290whp. K04 guys pull way more g/sec but make less power running gas. There is more volume of fuel per unit of oxygen, and because of the latent heat properties of ethanol, much more timing and boost can be run since ethanol gives you immunity against detonation. Ethanols effective octane rating is closer to 110-116, it needs less air to be stoich, and consequently less air for combustion. You just have to be able to supply enough E85 to make that happen.

    Chris

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    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  9. #209
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...php?p=13064894

    Mike,

    We talked about all this a few months ago on here and I would encourage you to read through some of it and offer any information that may have been missed. I mostly agree with you except MAF g/'s are not as reliable an indicator of power with ethanol. I was only making 220g/sec running 60% ethanol and 14* of timing on stage 1 but made 290whp. K04 guys pull way more g/sec but make less power running gas. There is more volume of fuel per unit of oxygen, and because of the latent heat properties of ethanol, much more timing and boost can be run since ethanol gives you immunity against detonation. Ethanols effective octane rating is closer to 110-116, it needs less air to be stoich, and consequently less air for combustion. You just have to be able to supply enough E85 to make that happen.

    Chris

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Audizine mobile app

    A dyno can read almost anything. I completely skip over dyno numbers unless we are talking about using them to track changes or to tune a car. Your car making 290whp on that dyno could make 320whp on another dyno or 220whp on another dyno. Dyno setup and calibration means everything.


    With respect to e85, its great stuff. BUT if you arent taking advantage of it by running higher timing you really arent going to see much power increase (some...just not a lot).

    If you have two cars both running timing targets of 14 degrees and one is running regular e10, 93 octane fuel and the other is running e85, you arent going to see much of a difference on a dyno or really in acceleration testing. Maybe a few percent. Where e85 gives the most benefits is it its ability to suppress knock. e85 arguably works better than 104 octane race fuel at knock suppression.

    We have many guys with the 3.0t engine who are running 28 degrees of timing.... yes 28 degrees on the S4 with e85 or even e50. They can only run about 14 degrees on 91 octane. That is HUGE power gains.


    On the2.0T, I routinely see 16 degrees of timing on my k04 on really good quality 93 octane here in S FL. On e85 I could likely see 24+ degrees. Thats where your power is going to be gained. And of course from being able to run the higher boost with the higher timing without detonation.


    Bottom line is dont worry about dynos. Take a VCDS timestamp of your car doing speed vs timestamp from 30-100mph. Better yet get a trap speed at the local track. That will tell you the power youre making. It may be great, it may be not great. Im not trying to insinuate that I know only that I wouldnt put weight in what the dynos says if you dont have good control yourself of that dyno (baseline data, dyno calibration data, knowledge of that dyno).


    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  10. #210
    Senior Member Three Rings Perry01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    On the2.0T, I routinely see 16 degrees of timing on my k04 on really good quality 93 octane here in S FL. On e85 I could likely see 24+ degrees.
    16 of timing advance on 93 octane gasoline? Id like to see the data log.

    24 of timing advance on E85? No way. We were recently experimenting with pure (E98) ethanol blends and none of us were even close to that.

    There is also a point of diminishing returns with ethanol. Timing advance reaches a maximum and stock fueling gets taxed.
    CTS K04 / IE custom tune / Wagner FMIC

  11. #211
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry01 View Post
    16 of timing advance on 93 octane gasoline? Id like to see the data log.

    24 of timing advance on E85? No way. We were recently experimenting with pure (E98) ethanol blends and none of us were even close to that.

    There is also a point of diminishing returns with ethanol. Timing advance reaches a maximum and stock fueling gets taxed.
    Heres one on sunoco gas with stock coilpacks and plugs. I can get at least 16 degrees on shell.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLH...w?usp=drivesdk

    Running out of fuel is a good problem to have.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  12. #212
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Heres one on sunoco gas with stock coilpacks and plugs. I can get at least 16 degrees on shell.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLH...w?usp=drivesdk

    Running out of fuel is a good problem to have.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
    4-6.5* Timing pull from the onset of boost to redline, that's more than I would be comfortable with. My car pulls zero timing running GIAC pump or E85. Only occasionally pulls a 1-1/12 * at MBT. That's a really aggressive timing map. A good tune shouldn't be pulling any timing. Do you have good FMIC? These motors and turbocharged engines in general, hate high IAT's. Once heat soaked, its game over! Was it hot and humid when you logged? No need to compare the B8 S4, I have one, its tuned as well, and it feels like a turd when the air temps get to 90* or more, my Allroad even more so unless I'm running meth to cool the charge air.

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    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  13. #213
    Senior Member Three Rings Perry01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Heres one on sunoco gas with stock coilpacks and plugs. I can get at least 16 degrees on shell.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLH...w?usp=drivesdk

    Running out of fuel is a good problem to have.


    Your timing map is way too aggressive. The benefit of 15 of advance is negated by 6 of timing retard. Timing pull on all 4 cylinders over a large portion of your RPM range is not good. A more moderate timing map would probably show 12 of timing advance with zero timing retard and produce the same power more safely.
    CTS K04 / IE custom tune / Wagner FMIC

  14. #214
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry01 View Post


    Your timing map is way too aggressive. The benefit of 15 of advance is negated by 6 of timing retard. Timing pull on all 4 cylinders over a large portion of your RPM range is not good. A more moderate timing map would probably show 12 of timing advance with zero timing retard and produce the same power more safely.

    People misundestand the timing maps and IKC (Ignition Knock Control) system. The timing of 15 degrees is the timing the car is running. This is the timing after the knock retard is taken into account (an average of all cylinders). The timing the car could run without the IKC system making corrections is about 18 degrees on this particular tune I believe.


    There is also old school thought on IKC as being somehow negative. Its not on these more advanced ECUs. The IKC system will retard timing safely preventing any destructive knock and it will add back in timing only after safely determined to do so.


    You may find this hard to believe but I can show you stock logs of several Audi B8 S4 that are consistently knock retarding 12 degrees of timing on most cylinders. yes...12 degrees. The cars are bone stock but running california 91 craptane and theyll likely run that way for a couple hundred thousand miles.

    This is a bone stock car...

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    I used to freak out about timing corrections as well.

    If I wanted to run a less aggressive timing map, I have one available but I definitely dont. As I was saying, when I run shell 93 octane I can get 16 to 17 degrees of timing and I have yet to try the R8 coilpacks and yet to experiment with 2 different spark plug solutions from OEM. I plan to do that this summer.

    My IATs are very well controlled so i'm very pleased with that. They never get higher than 30F over ambient on back to back torture testing. Couldnt ask for much more there. This is obviously evidenced in the aggressive timing maps and the IKC that you see. If my IATs were not controlled, my tune is setup (as is the stock tune) to default to a lower timing map so you will actually see LESS timing retard when your IATs are out of control because you are stuck on low timing maps.


    I definitely do not want to run a 12 degree timing tune. I can make 16 degrees consistently right now so i'd be leaving power on the table. (you can always retard timing but you cant add timing without a re-tune). This also gives me room for if I want to add a splash of e85, an lucas booster, or a splash of 100 octane.



    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    4-6.5* Timing pull from the onset of boost to redline, that's more than I would be comfortable with. My car pulls zero timing running GIAC pump or E85. Only occasionally pulls a 1-1/12 * at MBT. That's a really aggressive timing map. A good tune shouldn't be pulling any timing. Do you have good FMIC? These motors and turbocharged engines in general, hate high IAT's. Once heat soaked, its game over! Was it hot and humid when you logged? No need to compare the B8 S4, I have one, its tuned as well, and it feels like a turd when the air temps get to 90* or more, my Allroad even more so unless I'm running meth to cool the charge air.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Audizine mobile app

    Exactly my point. If you are seeing zero timing retard on both pump fuel and on e85 then your car is not benefiting from the e85 much. Your ECU cant automatically run higher timing targets. It can automatically retard but not run higher than what its timed for. Meaning, if you are running the same 14 degrees on 93 octane as you are on e85... well.... then your running the same timing.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  15. #215
    Senior Member Three Rings Perry01's Avatar
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    Tuners try to write files with zero timing retard. Justify it if you want to but a tune with timing pull on all four cylinders from 2500 RPM to redline is not okay. Your knock sensors are are warning your ECU that cylinder pressures are getting too high and detonation (Engine damage) may occur. You may never have a problem with your aggressive timing map but it is not a chance I would take.

    Flex fuel compatible vehicles have the ability to increase timing with the use of E85. Thats why there is an ethanol sensor that determines the amount of ethanol in the fuel. Based on the ethanol blend, the ECU advances timing accordingly. APR piggybacks this with their E85 file and advances the timing even more.

    This discussion has little to no bearing the big turbo topic of this thread so Im done.
    CTS K04 / IE custom tune / Wagner FMIC

  16. #216
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    People misundestand the timing maps and IKC (Ignition Knock Control) system. The timing of 15 degrees is the timing the car is running. This is the timing after the knock retard is taken into account (an average of all cylinders). The timing the car could run without the IKC system making corrections is about 18 degrees on this particular tune I believe.


    There is also old school thought on IKC as being somehow negative. Its not on these more advanced ECUs. The IKC system will retard timing safely preventing any destructive knock and it will add back in timing only after safely determined to do so.


    You may find this hard to believe but I can show you stock logs of several Audi B8 S4 that are consistently knock retarding 12 degrees of timing on most cylinders. yes...12 degrees. The cars are bone stock but running california 91 craptane and theyll likely run that way for a couple hundred thousand miles.

    This is a bone stock car...

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    I used to freak out about timing corrections as well.

    If I wanted to run a less aggressive timing map, I have one available but I definitely dont. As I was saying, when I run shell 93 octane I can get 16 to 17 degrees of timing and I have yet to try the R8 coilpacks and yet to experiment with 2 different spark plug solutions from OEM. I plan to do that this summer.

    My IATs are very well controlled so i'm very pleased with that. They never get higher than 30F over ambient on back to back torture testing. Couldnt ask for much more there. This is obviously evidenced in the aggressive timing maps and the IKC that you see. If my IATs were not controlled, my tune is setup (as is the stock tune) to default to a lower timing map so you will actually see LESS timing retard when your IATs are out of control because you are stuck on low timing maps.


    I definitely do not want to run a 12 degree timing tune. I can make 16 degrees consistently right now so i'd be leaving power on the table. (you can always retard timing but you cant add timing without a re-tune). This also gives me room for if I want to add a splash of e85, an lucas booster, or a splash of 100 octane.






    Exactly my point. If you are seeing zero timing retard on both pump fuel and on e85 then your car is not benefiting from the e85 much. Your ECU cant automatically run higher timing targets. It can automatically retard but not run higher than what its timed for. Meaning, if you are running the same 14 degrees on 93 octane as you are on e85... well.... then your running the same timing.
    Your AFR is way too rich for a DI engine. 0.79 lambda is 11:1. DI motors can safely run 12.5:1-13:1 AFR or 0.84-0.89 lambda. The recipe for tuning is Fuel/timing/boost. You have high timing offset by rich fueling to create bore wash and cooling to combat the pre-detonation that WILL occur at those timing levels on 93 octane. You can tune for power or tune for boost, not both.
    When I tuned Subarus we only saw 2-3* max timing gain from 91-93 octane, with all other parameters remaining unchanged. Most people on k04 are seeing 12* or less max timing on pump gas with timing being at or near zero during MBT.

    I disagree with your statements regarding timing maps. A properly tuned timing map will leave a small amount of headroom in timing advance for those optimal occasions. A log showing minimal to no timing pull is optimized because its running the total allowable safe timing before knock is present based on lots of logs and dyno time to verify.

    Please don't feel like we're ganging up on you. Your input is valued. And I don't mean to be rude, but could this discussion take place on a more appropriate thread? K04 follow up maybe?

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    Last edited by AUDacIouS4; 07-17-2018 at 11:40 AM.
    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  17. #217
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    You're quoting a random person's post. Of which their own data does not agree.

    They talk about both fuels at stoichiometric and then they compare gasoline at 12.5:1 and e85 at 6.9:1 or almost twice the amount of e85 burning compared to gasoline. Neither one at stoichiometric. and no one here is running anywhere near 6.9:1 air fuel ratios.

    Here are some sources, like the AFDC...

    https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fu...ison_chart.pdf

    Ethanol and fuels like E85. 1.5 gallons of ethanol has the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. A flex-fuel vehicle will experience about 76% of the fuel mileage MPG when using E85 (85% ethanol) products as compared to 100% gasoline. ... Pure ethanol provides 2/3 of the heat value available in pure gasoline.
    Sorry but should your should learn to read But I agree it take te advantage of using MAX power reach. E85 like to run reach.
    Should read his full study before


    Fuel AFRst FARst Equivalence Lambda
    ---- ----- ----- Ratio -----
    =======================--====================================

    Gasoline stoich 14.7 0.068 1 1
    Gasoline Max power rich 12.5 0.08 1.176 0.8503
    Gasoline Max power lean 13.23 0.0755 1.111 0.900

    =======================--====================================

    E85 stoich 9.765 0.10235 1 1
    E85 Max power rich 6.975 0.1434 1.40 0.7143
    E85 Max power lean 8.4687 0.118 1.153 0.8673


    =======================--====================================

    E100 stoich 9.0 0.111 1 1
    E100 Max power rich 6.429 0.155 1.4 0.714
    E100 Max power lean 7.8 0.128 1.15 0.870


    =======================--====================================

  18. #218
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars2 View Post
    Sorry but should your should learn to read But I agree it take te advantage of using MAX power reach. E85 like to run reach.
    Should read his full study before


    Fuel AFRst FARst Equivalence Lambda
    ---- ----- ----- Ratio -----
    =======================--====================================

    Gasoline stoich 14.7 0.068 1 1
    Gasoline Max power rich 12.5 0.08 1.176 0.8503
    Gasoline Max power lean 13.23 0.0755 1.111 0.900

    =======================--====================================

    E85 stoich 9.765 0.10235 1 1
    E85 Max power rich 6.975 0.1434 1.40 0.7143
    E85 Max power lean 8.4687 0.118 1.153 0.8673


    =======================--====================================

    E100 stoich 9.0 0.111 1 1
    E100 Max power rich 6.429 0.155 1.4 0.714
    E100 Max power lean 7.8 0.128 1.15 0.870


    =======================--====================================

    I am respecting Audacious request to stop posting about this in his thread. We can take it over to the K04 thread or something. I dont see anything you just posted that I disagreed with. Again, no one here is running e85 at 6.9:1 AFR or even 9:1 AFR and the only tuner taking advantage of our e85 sensors is Audi and APR. Its a good discussion but lets take it to another thread.

    Thanks
    mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
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  19. #219
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Here's a few shots of the plumbing. I had to bend the metal lip along the frame rail and also the bumper brace to give the pipes a little more room since the fab shop had them sitting so close they were rubbing slightly and causing a vibration. It's a pretty tight squeeze in there since the manifold is for a B7. If the manifold was altered slightly to accommodate the B8 engine bay, there is quite a bit of room for plumbing. There is a picture of the 710N mechanical DV, the OEM wire harness has a plug with two wires soldered together to complete the circuit. I was reading on HYDE16 MK6 big turbo build and he actually ended up returning to the OEM N75 and using a TurboSmart Kompac DV which would be similar to a GFB DV+, but said the N75 restored overall drivability. You can also see that the once black Precision Turbo wastegate has now turned burnt orange. Hmmmm... I may try the NGR Performance screen instead of the K&N filter ti give me some more room to play with. http://ngrperformance.com/product/turbo-filter-black/
    Attached Images
    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  20. #220
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Here's a quick sound clip video. The mic was inside the engine bay.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q9q...ature=youtu.be
    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  21. #221
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Installed an ECS catch can. I just bought the can and plumbed it in between the PCV outlet and turbo inlet piggybacking the OEM PCV. Does anyone know if the complete kits block off the OEM PCV entirely? No one makes a kit for the flex fuel metal intake manifolds except ECS and their full kit didn't look worth the money to get fancy steel braided lines and some other brackets. Are there any problems with how mine is setup? Would I benefit from blocking off the OEM PCV entirely?

    Also, and this was happening before when I had the stock turbo on, does anyone have oil residue on the valve cover near the solenoids as pictured? I have residue all along that entire exhaust side at each solenoid.20180729_175018.jpeg20180729_175046.jpeg

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    Last edited by AUDacIouS4; 07-29-2018 at 06:11 PM.
    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  22. #222
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    Pictures won't load for me; however i did the same thing you did, just bought the catch can and made my own bracket/lines. I bought the 2 adapters separately. Now with the bigger turbo, I'm using an 034 Motorsports pcv delete plate and made new lines to the can. From the looks of it, the complete kit blocks off the pcv.
    For the oil on the passenger side of engine, those AVS solenoids like to seep oil. Getting new o-rings will do the trick

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  23. #223
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    I checked my catch can the other day and it was bone dry......then I double checked the installation instructions......somehow during my installation wizadry I switched the feed/return lines into the can.....LOL!! NAVzabM.jpeg

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    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  24. #224
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    Any progress on a quad exhaust? Really want to see if it can be done cleanly.

  25. #225
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muffinman92 View Post
    Any progress on a quad exhaust? Really want to see if it can be done cleanly.
    I'm not doing anything with my exhaust. I think Casey was going that route with his big turbo build. If you pop the diffuser off, the bumper has provisions for quad tips. I'm willing to bet an A4 s-line diffuser would work. I have a B8 S4 sitting in my driveway and just by eyeballing, it looks damn close to the same as the Allroad profile.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  26. #226
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    I wanted to, but I'm going towards more of a sleeper look now.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  27. #227
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    I'm not doing anything with my exhaust. I think Casey was going that route with his big turbo build. If you pop the diffuser off, the bumper has provisions for quad tips. I'm willing to bet an A4 s-line diffuser would work. I have a B8 S4 sitting in my driveway and just by eyeballing, it looks damn close to the same as the Allroad profile.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Anyway you can do some measurements to see how close? I am willing to be a guinea pig

  28. #228
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Tuning coming soon. GIAC is moving into a new facility and should be contacting me soon to schedule some dyno time.

    A tuned MK7 GTI tried to race me from a slow roll off the light a few days ago....lifting off at 70mph I was a bus length ahead....and I had the AC on and a bunch of crap in the back. I'm not sure if that's good or not but this setup looks promising. 226e5dbc8f90277dd4ef920291400c36.jpeg

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    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  29. #229
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    5 weeks with a catch can.....its bone dry.......why do we "need" this again?

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    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    5 weeks with a catch can.....its bone dry.......why do we "need" this again?

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Audizine mobile app
    Because $$. I had this on the top of my list of things to do as who wants oil residue throughout the intake tract. But it would seem Audi worked out the majority of the pcv and oil separation issues when they went through the oil consumption phase.
    Others will say carbon build up....youre still going to have it until we have an injector spraying upstream on the regular.
    This is a legacy mod for profit, and another failure point. Update/replace the pcv at 80-100k with carbon cleaning and possibly new injectors since your in there anyway.


    Jeff

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLAllroad View Post
    Because $$. I had this on the top of my list of things to do as who wants oil residue throughout the intake tract. But it would seem Audi worked out the majority of the pcv and oil separation issues when they went through the oil consumption phase.
    Others will say carbon build up....youre still going to have it until we have an injector spraying upstream on the regular.
    This is a legacy mod for profit, and another failure point. Update/replace the pcv at 80-100k with carbon cleaning and possibly new injectors since your in there anyway.


    Jeff
    "Legacy mod for profit" has a nice ring to it. Thankfully the catch can is the only one of those that I've fell victim to. I'm sure it's much more functional on the Gen1 E888 oil burner. I had zero oil consumption before the BT stuff and noticed very liitle residue in the intake tract before said catch can was installed. The fab shop that builds lots of Audi/VW big turbo setups and built mine, said if I didn't run one I would risk blowing out the rear main seal eventually. I assume they meant deleting the OEM PCV though, which I did not.

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    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  32. #232
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    Installed a Grimmspeed MBC in between the N75 as a failsafe for the future. Its set at 25psi. Despite having the MBC in place it doesn't allow the boost to increase up to 24psi anyway. Hmm.


    https://1drv.ms/x/s!Aps3OX1AcJ0Alz1Tu_GlBs0C04g2

    GIAC is going to tweak my wastegate duty cycle and charge pressure specified maps

    Suddenly one day the boost went to the moon, literally......31.5psi. Found the lower wastegate banjo bolt had loosened up. The car was super fast though!. The throttle closes down when this overboost condition occurs from 88% to 35% so less than half of that boost makes its way into the engine.
    https://1drv.ms/x/s!Aps3OX1AcJ0Alz8znUzpbtG6iKeW
    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  33. #233
    Veteran Member Four Rings hyperunion's Avatar
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    Plan to hit a quarter mile track by fall??

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    B8.5 A4 Premium +, ZF8, APR Stg II+ E85, APR HFC Downpipe, APR Carbon Intake, APR Intercooler, APR T.M. Delete, AWE Quad Exaust, ECS turbo inlet hose, H&R coilovers , H&R F&R Sway Bars, Q5 4 Piston Brembo upgrade, ECS Slotted rotors and stainless lines, OZ Ultraleggeras, Piaa, 3M Crystalline, Xpel Ultimate. IG: "Veritech1"

    RIP: B6 A4 Sport, AWE GIAC rSK04, Bilstein PSS9, OZ SL.

  34. #234
    Senior Member Three Rings AUDacIouS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperunion View Post
    Plan to hit a quarter mile track by fall??

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    I probably will once the tune is done just for your sake and anyone else who is curious. I'm in the process of selling my wheels so that I can buy some lightweight 20" or 19" for DD and performance. If I can hit mid 11's I think that's going to be pretty respectable for this setup. I am more interested in hitting up some of the local tracks and decimating my previous lap times And maybe embarrassing some M3's and P-cars

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Audizine mobile app
    2010 S4: Stasis Touring
    2015 Allroad GIAC E85/APR FMIC/ECS intake/034 HFC, driveline inserts, UCA's/KW V3/H&R sways/20x10 Vossen x Work VWS1

  35. #235
    Veteran Member Four Rings hyperunion's Avatar
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    Can't go wrong with either oz ultraleggeras or the neuspeed wheels like my rs10s.. tho not sure about the lower offset you would need!. Would have to go s5/a5 spec!.. but yeah to hit that high 11 second would be a first!. Definitely have to go far faster then a 12.1.. no pressure!..
    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    I probably will once the tune is done just for your sake and anyone else who is curious. I'm in the process of selling my wheels so that I can buy some lightweight 20" or 19" for DD and performance. If I can hit mid 11's I think that's going to be pretty respectable for this setup. I am more interested in hitting up some of the local tracks and decimating my previous lap times And maybe embarrassing some M3's and P-cars

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Audizine mobile app
    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    B8.5 A4 Premium +, ZF8, APR Stg II+ E85, APR HFC Downpipe, APR Carbon Intake, APR Intercooler, APR T.M. Delete, AWE Quad Exaust, ECS turbo inlet hose, H&R coilovers , H&R F&R Sway Bars, Q5 4 Piston Brembo upgrade, ECS Slotted rotors and stainless lines, OZ Ultraleggeras, Piaa, 3M Crystalline, Xpel Ultimate. IG: "Veritech1"

    RIP: B6 A4 Sport, AWE GIAC rSK04, Bilstein PSS9, OZ SL.

  36. #236
    Senior Member Three Rings Perry01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDacIouS4 View Post
    Installed a Grimmspeed MBC in between the N75 as a failsafe for the future. Its set at 25psi. Despite having the MBC in place it doesn't allow the boost to increase up to 24psi anyway. Hmm.


    https://1drv.ms/x/s!Aps3OX1AcJ0Alz1Tu_GlBs0C04g2

    GIAC is going to tweak my wastegate duty cycle and charge pressure specified maps

    Suddenly one day the boost went to the moon, literally......31.5psi. Found the lower wastegate banjo bolt had loosened up. The car was super fast though!. The throttle closes down when this overboost condition occurs from 88% to 35% so less than half of that boost makes its way into the engine.
    https://1drv.ms/x/s!Aps3OX1AcJ0Alz8znUzpbtG6iKeW
    I installed a MBC in line to try to solve and overboost issue. It proved to be difficult to set it accurately and it just created more problems. Maybe its limiting your boost. I created a few charts with the data from your logs.

    I would defiantly have GIAC tweak your N75 duty cycle although according to your log, it looks to be pretty maxed out to 5,000 RPM then it tapers off a bit.



    How is the turbo lag down low? Your log shows only 5 PSI at 3,000 RPM and 10 PSI at 3,600 RPM. Unless your big turbo is pushing a huge volume of air into your motor, I suspect there is quite a bit of lag. It also isnt producing the boost pressure I would expect. Hopefully your tuner can rectify this.




    Id have GIAC look at your timing map as well. It looks to be all over the place.




    Keep us posted with your progress.
    Last edited by Perry01; Yesterday at 10:51 PM.
    CTS K04 / IE custom tune / Wagner FMIC

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