"AUDacIouS4" Allroad Prescision Turbo 5558 build

[casey_tuzziano]

Nice to see someone else doing a BT EA888 build as well! Im currently working on my setup too (B8 A4) with either a 5558 or gtx3582r. Built internals...IE rifle drilled H beam rods, wiseco 9.6:1 pistons, ARP main and head studs, etc. My fueling setup is similar to yours. Ill be running a walbro 450 in the tank, upgraded hpfp up front, either the Opel or Bosch injectors you're using, however the custom intake manifold I am running has ports for a second row of injectors and meth injection. These injectors will be controlled by AEM's FIC. With the port injection, i can go well over 400whp. I need to figure out what size injectors I need to run for the secondaries. As for tuning, I have a guy in NJ that does custom tunes. Im sure I am forgetting somethings, but I am hoping to get everything up and running before car show season!

[AUDacIouS4]

Nice to see someone else doing a BT EA888 build as well! Im currently working on my setup too (B8 A4) with either a 5558 or gtx3582r. Built internals...IE rifle drilled H beam rods, wiseco 9.6:1 pistons, ARP main and head studs, etc. My fueling setup is similar to yours. Ill be running a walbro 450 in the tank, upgraded hpfp up front, either the Opel or Bosch injectors you're using, however the custom intake manifold I am running has ports for a second row of injectors and meth injection. These injectors will be controlled by AEM's FIC. With the port injection, i can go well over 400whp. I need to figure out what size injectors I need to run for the secondaries. As for tuning, I have a guy in NJ that does custom tunes. Im sure I am forgetting somethings, but I am hoping to get everything up and running before car show season!

Great job! You should link your build thread here and I'll add it on to the first post.

Eurodynamic is going to dyno tune me, you may want to contact them.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BdVByBLgDTN/

If you go with a precision turbo, they are only oil cooled so you will need this ATP banjo bolt flared fitting and some 3/8" radiator hose to loop the coolant line back into the block.



I'm going to see what the stock fueling and internals can handle on my setup. I'll probably build a block next summer similar to what you did and then crank up the boost.

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[casey_tuzziano]

Great job! You should link your build thread here and I'll add it on to the first post.

Eurodynamic is going to dyno tune me, you may want to contact them.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BdVByBLgDTN/

If you go with a precision turbo, they are only oil cooled so you will need this ATP banjo bolt flared fitting and some 3/8" radiator hose to loop the coolant line back into the block.



I'm going to see what the stock fueling and internals can handle on my setup. I'll probably build a block next summer similar to what you did and then crank up the boost.

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Cool! http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=795261

[AUDacIouS4]

Shameless plug.....but this motor has a unique sound when you rev it out. I mounted the go pro to the tow hook. I need to get a good microphone once this new turbo setup is done and stick it in the engine bay for some nasty turbo noises.

https://youtu.be/dOm7xtjOqmo

https://youtu.be/XcKK12AZ6Sw

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[KFizz]

Yup. That sounds bad ass for certain.

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[AUDacIouS4]

Got sidetracked... car was at the dealer for two weeks for a aux heater recall and a wheel bearing. The shop that was going to fab up my downpipe and turbo inlet had to move locations on Jan 1, so I'm waiting for them to get setup. Eurodynamic is still working on defining my ECU so I don't want to do the install until they are ready.

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[casey_tuzziano]

So I got my turbo installed, we have the same manifold, and the motor mount bracket will come in contact with the exhaust housing and oil drain. So im fabricating a pipe from the manifold so the turbo will sit top mount. Just a heads up lol

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[hyperunion]

Just playing devil's advocate here!.. look forward to see this build complete.. when all is complete your car should be able to post lower then a 12.1 second quarter mile???. Running any type of gas .. either e85 blend or 93...

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[AUDacIouS4]

So I got my turbo installed, we have the same manifold, and the motor mount bracket will come in contact with the exhaust housing and oil drain. So im fabricating a pipe from the manifold so the turbo will sit top mount. Just a heads up lol

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What turbo are you running? I can orient or "clock" my exhaust and compressor housing in whichever direction I want. Are you able to do that with your turbo? Just wondering, because your picture of the turbo on the motor shows the compressor outlet facing the wrong direction. It should point to 6'- o - clock. I've never read of anyone having an issue with the ATP manifold and turbo contacting anything.

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[casey_tuzziano]

What turbo are you running? I can orient or "clock" my exhaust and compressor housing in whichever direction I want. Are you able to do that with your turbo?

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Yes I can clock my turbo. I have the oil drain straight up and down right now. I never thought about clocking it slightly. I know the max is 15 degrees. I'm going to try that tonight and see if it works lol

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[AUDacIouS4]

Nice to see someone else doing a BT EA888 build as well! Im currently working on my setup too (B8 A4) with either a 5558 or gtx3582r. Built internals...IE rifle drilled H beam rods, wiseco 9.6:1 pistons, ARP main and head studs, etc. My fueling setup is similar to yours. Ill be running a walbro 450 in the tank, upgraded hpfp up front, either the Opel or Bosch injectors you're using, however the custom intake manifold I am running has ports for a second row of injectors and meth injection. These injectors will be controlled by AEM's FIC. With the port injection, i can go well over 400whp. I need to figure out what size injectors I need to run for the secondaries. As for tuning, I have a guy in NJ that does custom tunes. Im sure I am forgetting somethings, but I am hoping to get everything up and running before car show season!

That guy in NJ wouldn't happen to be Mirza would it? A guy I know around me works with Mirza for a lot of B5 tuning and said he can custom tune anything.

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[casey_tuzziano]

That guy in NJ wouldn't happen to be Mirza would it? A guy I know around me works with Mirza for a lot of B5 tuning and said he can custom tune anything.

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Yup. I actually was talking to him yesterday. He is going to make me a base tune, then we are going to Dyno tune when I have a day off from work. Peter Blais from IE was going to do it, but he didn't feel comfortable tuning it remotely. Oh well...Mirza did an incredible stage 2 tune when I had my k03. I trust him haha

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[AUDacIouS4]

Just playing devil's advocate here!.. look forward to see this build complete.. when all is complete your car should be able to post lower then a 12.1 second quarter mile???. Running any type of gas .. either e85 blend or 93...

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I would hope I could run mid 11's. I'm not really a 1/4 mile guy though, but I would probably hit the drag strip just for kicks once its done. Who knows? We'll have to see how much the stock fueling can handle, especially running E85.

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[AUDacIouS4]

That ATP log-style manifold has proved problematic on many BT builds on VW applications due to turbulent flow characteristics. It just doesn't flow well as it's a crude and not very well engineered piece. That said, this is awesome that you're going the BT route on this platform and I wish you ease and success! I'll be following this closely just as I have many other FSI/TSI builds over the last decade.

I would use UM over GIAC if both were making the same offer, but in this case I think it was wise to go GIAC so long as they make good on their promise.

I love you and hate you for this information. I read a bunch of those Vw vortex links regarding the ATP manifold and decided to return mine. Now on the hunt for something else. Contacted VF engineering to see if they have any of their 2.0t manifolds collecting dust somewhere. There is JDL design $$$. Also contacted Bluewater performance about making another "slowone" manifold.

Other than that, here's an idea: take a OEM manifold, cut the turbine housing off and weld on a T3 flange and wastegate flange.

Buy once cry once??

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[B8_Dude97]

My route would be custom tubular manifold because
A)top mount turbo
B)twin scrollllllllllll

Easily a 1000 for the manifold but like you said buy once cry once. U can easily take it offf have it modified for a k04(because who wouldn’t want a top mount turbo) and make at least some money back if you ever decided to sell the car


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[AUDacIouS4]

My route would be custom tubular manifold because
A)top mount turbo
B)twin scrollllllllllll

Easily a 1000 for the manifold but like you said buy once cry once. U can easily take it offf have it modified for a k04(because who wouldn’t want a top mount turbo) and make at least some money back if you ever decided to sell the car


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Check this out!! $1200 usd

They make a twinscroll version as well
http://wig-art.de/turbo-manifold/VW/...ess-steel.html


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[casey_tuzziano]

Check this out!! $1200 usd

They make a twinscroll version as well
http://wig-art.de/turbo-manifold/VW/...ess-steel.html


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Dude, you did it. Im ditching my atp manifold too, so i was going to make a tubular manifold, but now that you found this 🤔🤔🤔 here's where I want mine to be


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[AUDacIouS4]

Dude, you did it. Im ditching my atp manifold too, so i was going to make a tubular manifold, but now that you found this 🤔🤔🤔 here's where I want mine to be


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The more I started to look into Euro companies the more I realized how many options there are for something like this. Some are less expensive. There was an OBX Racing (chinese junk maybe?) one on Ebay that "looked" nice and was only $500... you wanna try it first??

Also CTS makes this although it says for transverse layout only.. not sure why

http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/product...ged-371-2.html

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[AUDacIouS4]

Dude, you did it. Im ditching my atp manifold too, so i was going to make a tubular manifold, but now that you found this 🤔🤔🤔 here's where I want mine to be

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Hey, found this:
http://ardesign.org/B7-Audi-A4-Vband...Ard-B7-TMM.htm



......and JDL design has a top mount jig for the B7 that will wotk for us and I'm waiting to hear back on the price, so either way those are two solid options!!!!!

[casey_tuzziano]

Hey, found this:
http://ardesign.org/B7-Audi-A4-Vband...Ard-B7-TMM.htm



......and JDL design has a top mount jig for the B7 that will wotk for us and I'm waiting to hear back on the price, so either way those are two solid options!!!!!

Hey man! Sorry for the late response but I would be of interest, but I'm actually making my own. I took measurements yesterday and I'm getting the material today. My tank of argon should be delivered Monday so I'll see how it comes out. I've never fabricated a manifold before haha.

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[AUDacIouS4]

Update:
I just heard back from Eurodynamic tuning.....2 weeks and they will be ready for me. JDL design can make a top mounted tubular manifold for me based off the B7 jig they have. I've veen working with Four Seasons Tuning in Anaheim for the rest of the fab work and they don't forsee any issues with using a B7 jig on a B8. Does anyone know if there would be any clearance issues? Looking at photos of the engine bays it appears like there is just as much, if not more room in the B8 for the manifold.

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[Perry01]

I just went out to my garage and compared my B7 to my B8 and the B8 has much more space. The first picture is (stock) B7:



And B8 with HFC:

[casey_tuzziano]

Update:
I just heard back from Eurodynamic tuning.....2 weeks and they will be ready for me. JDL design can make a top mounted tubular manifold for me based off the B7 jig they have. I've veen working with Four Seasons Tuning in Anaheim for the rest of the fab work and they don't forsee any issues with using a B7 jig on a B8. Does anyone know if there would be any clearance issues? Looking at photos of the engine bays it appears like there is just as much, if not more room in the B8 for the manifold.

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Our B8s have so much more room for activities! Glad you found someone to make a manifold haha. Mirza sent me his base map yesterday so I can upload it when I get home and get back into things.

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[Mars2]

I'm really confused with your injector flow number's.
First GDI injector number are normal stating @100Bar but you saying @5bar
from your link: https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.co...irect-injector
it say's that Audi flex fuel flow 1050CC/mn or 718G/mn or 66LB/hr

But if you check the Golf 6 GTI injector 06H 906 036 G on this same site:
https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.co...irect-injector
it got exactly same number's!!!! 718G/mn
https://www.oscaro.com/injecteur-bos...2702064-3902-p

So I don't know if this source can be trusted.

Also 718G/mn is like 718/60 so 11,96G/s. And that is pretty low and don't fit with the number's from Nostrum that give Golf MK6 injector for 12.7G/s at 100 bar
06H 906 036 P is what you get now at VW if you order 06H 906 036 G. I checked on ETKA. Sorry can't post picture of the screen shot that I got.

https://www.nostrumshop.com/wp-conte...v-pressure.png

Also I think you swapped the part number of LDK and LNF. According to this and the set of LDK injector I got the part number is 0261500055 and those are flowing 18% more than GTI 6.
I got set of those.
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showth...=43120&page=33
Also the website stating 312cc/mn @5bar does not mean any thing because to compare would need to know @100 Bar.

Coud you please clarify a bit more those number?
Could you give your source that show's that 0261500087 flow 20% less than 0261500164.

Sorry I'm shopping for new injector for my KO4 E85 EA888 GEN2 and your post is making me very confused.

[AUDacIouS4]

I'm really confused with your injector flow number's.
First GDI injector number are normal stating @100Bar but you saying @5bar
from your link: https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.co...irect-injector
it say's that Audi flex fuel flow 1050CC/mn or 718G/mn or 66LB/hr

But if you check the Golf 6 GTI injector 06H 906 036 G on this same site:
https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.co...irect-injector
it got exactly same number's!!!! 718G/mn
https://www.oscaro.com/injecteur-bos...2702064-3902-p

********&*THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT INJECTORS, ONE IS HDEV 5.1 (GTI) THE OTHER IS HDEV5.2 ALLROAD **********

So I don't know if this source can be trusted.

Also 718G/mn is like 718/60 so 11,96G/s. And that is pretty low and don't fit with the number's from Nostrum that give Golf MK6 injector for 12.7G/s at 100 bar
06H 906 036 P is what you get now at VW if you order 06H 906 036 G. I checked on ETKA. Sorry can't post picture of the screen shot that I got.

https://www.nostrumshop.com/wp-conte...v-pressure.png

Also I think you swapped the part number of LDK and LNF. According to this and the set of LDK injector I got the part number is 0261500055 and those are flowing 18% more than GTI 6.
I got set of those.

**********that injector ending in 055 is the GM ecotec injector, the "big one" flows 15g/sec vs the opel @ 12.7g/sec

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showth...=43120&page=33
Also the website stating 312cc/mn @5bar does not mean any thing because to compare would need to know @100 Bar.

Coud you please clarify a bit more those number?
Could you give your source that show's that 0261500087 flow 20% less than 0261500164.

Sorry I'm shopping for new injector for my KO4 E85 EA888 GEN2 and your post is making me very confused.

^^^^^^^^I corrected two things above in your response

FOR REFERENCE
Bosch GDI injector for 15/16 A4/ALLROAD
0 261 500 164

I understand your confusion and thank you for digging deeper. All the information I posted is accurate, but as you pointed out the flow rates are not consistent. I spent hours online just finding the information I have. That link to the Bosch motorsport .au was literally the only site that listed info on that 0 261 500 164 GDI injector other than the corresponding Bosch data sheet. If you search for "Bosch sales data sheets" you can find detailed info on those HDEV 5.1 (2013)and 5.2 (2015). I'll search again as well.

I'm glad you found that chart from Nostrum showing flow rates, that was not available last I checked. Its frustrating when all the static flow rates listed aren't consistent. Your calculations on g/sec for that 0 261 500 164 cant be made( I did the same thing) as the flow rate in cc/min @100 bar need to measured @5bar to show consistent resluts against the others. G/sec changes with pressure and until Nostrum or another third party injector cleaning/flow testing site measures that we can only guess. But its a HDEV5.2 718cc/min injector vs the LNF opel injector thats is 318cc/min. That opel injector has its own issues when run in the mk6 as its spray pattern is for a different engine. (See nostrum az thread link on 1st post)

Based on that Nostrum chart, I wonder if that 0 261 500 164 injector in my Allroad falls right in line with the blue line on the chart just based on the numeric succession from Bosch number 0 261 500 163 to 0 261 500 164. That would mean it flows around 12.5-13.0 g/sec @5bar. I only say that based on flow numbers I've come across that listed every Bosch injector by number and the corresponding flow rates. Again, I'm drawing an assumption here. I sent an email to Nostrum about the injector in my Allroad and they have not tested the newer HDEV5.2 injectors yet. The info for LDK/LDF info I posted was off Nostrums site and from the link I posted on the 1st post to the AZ thread.

Again, thank you for seeking clarification and I apologize to everyone for not filling in some of the gaps in the information. I did my best to be as accurate as possible based on my research. I would encourage you guys to do some research and report back as I think a new thread dedicated to injectors and fueling is needed as more of us pursue these big turbo setups.

I will gladly update any info I've posted if it is found to be inaccurate.

[AUDacIouS4]

I just went out to my garage and compared my B7 to my B8 and the B8 has much more space. The first picture is (stock) B7:



And B8 with HFC:

Thank you!

Our B8s have so much more room for activities! Glad you found someone to make a manifold haha. Mirza sent me his base map yesterday so I can upload it when I get home and get back into things.

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Good to hear, I'm glad your making headway!
It's been hard for me just sitting on all the parts For my build and not being able to install them.
If you make some breakthroughs in the fueling department with your flex fuel parts, there will be a lot of excitement.

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[Mars2]

Don't get me wrong i'm not complaining you as your post is almost the only one with info on those bosch GDI injector. I was so happy to find it.

some little mistake I see:

- You say ing 0 210 500 164 is 718CC/mn it is not check on your link it's 1050cc/mn@ 100Bar or 718cc/g@100 Bar gazoline have density less than 1.
- Those measurement from bosch website are all made at 100 bar, so does Nostrum when they cote 25G/s. why make it at 5bar when no GDI system is ever at that low pressure. Mine run at 150 Bar. 5 bar is good for comparing port injectior not direct high pressure injector's.
- if LDK make 13g/s @ 5bar how much will they make at 100 bar (Increasing the fuel pressure will increase the injector flow rate as follows: Square Root (New Pressure/Old Pressure) that is the formula fro flow in tube vs pressure. So 13g/s@ 5bar would be about 58G/s at 100bar.
even if that calculation is bit of a short cut it does not work at all.

Again i'm thankful to the work you did and just opening question to try to understand that " BALCK MAGIC" GDI injector's Flow rate. As you say it's very very difficult to get any info.

[AUDacIouS4]

Don't get me wrong i'm not complaining you as your post is almost the only one with info on those bosch GDI injector. I was so happy to find it.

some little mistake I see:

- You say ing 0 210 500 164 is 718CC/mn it is not check on your link it's 1050cc/mn@ 100Bar or 718cc/g@100 Bar gazoline have density less than 1.
- Those measurement from bosch website are all made at 100 bar, so does Nostrum when they cote 25G/s. why make it at 5bar when no GDI system is ever at that low pressure. Mine run at 150 Bar. 5 bar is good for comparing port injectior not direct high pressure injector's.
- if LDK make 13g/s @ 5bar how much will they make at 100 bar (Increasing the fuel pressure will increase the injector flow rate as follows: Square Root (New Pressure/Old Pressure) that is the formula fro flow in tube vs pressure. So 13g/s@ 5bar would be about 58G/s at 100bar.
even if that calculation is bit of a short cut it does not work at all.

Again i'm thankful to the work you did and just opening question to try to understand that " BALCK MAGIC" GDI injector's Flow rate. As you say it's very very difficult to get any info.

Good find! Thats interesting, the data listed on the 0 261 500 164 injector from here has changed since I posted it a few months ago.
https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.co...irect-injector

Like you said, We'll have to be careful to make sure all the units of measurement and pressures are consistent when posting data.

I've logged 2850psi rail pressure in my Allroad which equates to about 195bar running 70% ethanol, so it looks promising for hitting 400whp on my stock fueling. I'm just concerned about the high pressure side when the fuel demand is increased since I haven't found any info on the OEM Hitachi HPFP.

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[AUDacIouS4]

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte...30808203.html#

Screenshot_20180212-105027.jpeg

[Mars2]

Good find! Thats interesting, the data listed on the 0 261 500 164 injector from here has changed since I posted it a few months ago.
https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.co...irect-injector

Like you said, We'll have to be careful to make sure all the units of measurement and pressures are consistent when posting data.

I've logged 2850psi rail pressure in my Allroad which equates to about 195bar running 70% ethanol, so it looks promising for hitting 400whp on my stock fueling. I'm just concerned about the high pressure side when the fuel demand is increased since I haven't found any info on the OEM Hitachi HPFP.

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195 Bar on the OEM 06J-127-025-J I'm very impress. I thought to push so much pressure with B8.5 flexfuel injector I would need to upgrade to at least Stage 1 VIS HPFP Kit or maybe stage 2.
That vis good news.
Did you log how many mS your injector open for?
How much WHP and Torque do you have at the moment?

[miketweedie]

The more I started to look into Euro companies the more I realized how many options there are for something like this. Some are less expensive. There was an OBX Racing (chinese junk maybe?) one on Ebay that "looked" nice and was only $500... you wanna try it first??

Also CTS makes this although it says for transverse layout only.. not sure why

http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/product...ged-371-2.html

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DO NOT BUY AN OBX ONE!!!! I put one on my BT 1.8T swapped MK2 Gti, and it cracked in about three weeks. I literally re-welded the thing once a month, it was garbage.

[AUDacIouS4]

DO NOT BUY AN OBX ONE!!!! I put one on my BT 1.8T swapped MK2 Gti, and it cracked in about three weeks. I literally re-welded the thing once a month, it was garbage.

Eeewww!!! That sucks!

[AUDacIouS4]

195 Bar on the OEM 06J-127-025-J I'm very impress. I thought to push so much pressure with B8.5 flexfuel injector I would need to upgrade to at least Stage 1 VIS HPFP Kit or maybe stage 2.
That vis good news.
Did you log how many mS your injector open for?
How much WHP and Torque do you have at the moment?

I'll go out and log injector duty cycle, rail pressure, injector pulse width, and...........pump duty cycle and report back.

[Mars2]

Any update of the Log?

Many think the 5Th injector his involved in the fueling with engine hot. It is not. it's just a cold start feature.

5th injector on B8.5 is only their for Very Very cold start . It's not involved into the fueling as soon as temperature is above -10°C ( very cold) see page 23 of this document.
http://vwgtraining.co.uk/recursos/v4...gic_SSP439.pdf

Cold start valve N17 is what we call 5th injector see page 21

[AUDacIouS4]

Any update of the Log?

Many think the 5Th injector his involved in the fueling with engine hot. It is not. it's just a cold start feature.

5th injector on B8.5 is only their for Very Very cold start . It's not involved into the fueling as soon as temperature is above -10°C ( very cold) see page 23 of this document.
http://vwgtraining.co.uk/recursos/v4...gic_SSP439.pdf

Cold start valve N17 is what we call 5th injector see page 21

Yes, 5th injector is for cold starts with E85, but can be used for supplemental fueling like the mk5/6 GTI guys did.

Here is 4th gear from 3000rpm to 6200rpm with 49% ethanol, meth off.

My car dynoed at 291whp/336wtq with 60% ethanol On a mustang dyno GIAC stage 1+ e85 race map: post#http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12853655

20180215_090957.jpeg20180215_090044.jpeg20180215_084944.jpeg

[AUDacIouS4]

One more, this parameter was labeled "fuel pressure" in VCDS, not sure what exactly it measures. Its in kPa relative.......relative to what? Disregard the blue line, its just RPM on the y-axis
20180215_085010.jpeg

[AUDacIouS4]

This was posted by Unitronic on the mk6 big turbo discussion.....we'll see how the fueling holds up with 100 more whp
Screenshot_20180129-145722.jpeg

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[AUDacIouS4]

20180215_102316.jpeg

[Perry01]

One more, this parameter was labeled "fuel pressure" in VCDS, not sure what exactly it measures. Its in kPa relative.......relative to what?

VCDS labels “fuel pressure” as actual high fuel pressure relative to the VCDS label “High Fuel Pressure specified”

[AUDacIouS4]

VCDS labels “fuel pressure” as actual high fuel pressure relative to the VCDS label “High Fuel Pressure specified”

"High fuel pressure: specified"
for my tune is 17.0905 MPa across the board which is 2479 psi or 171 Bar

"Fuel pressure" exceeds that at peak tq

Peak tq @3857 rpm: 18690 kPa = 2710.75 psi = 186.9 Bar
Peak power @ 5300 rpm: 17410 kPa = 2525 psi = 174 Bar
@6193 rpm: 16440 kPa = 2384 psi = 164 Bar

Keep in mind, I'm only on a stage 1 tune, It all depends on the requested values and ethanol content which is probably less aggressive on a stage 1 vs 2 vs big turbo setup.

I'll fill up with a full tank if E85 this weekend and that should get close to about 70% ethanol and log again.

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