Dyno numbers for APR stage 1 2017 RS7 Performance on 100 octane (no 104 oct avail.)

[limeypride]

Yes, completely laughable when your same car with same APR Stage 1 tune on the same model dyno is down 70whp when you're on 100 octane and the other car is on 93 octane.

And yet again, you cite the same singular, disreputable source... nothing more than one YouTube video and you're convinced.

[limeypride]

Yes, completely laughable when your same car with same APR Stage 1 tune on the same model dyno is down 70whp when you're on 100 octane and the other car is on 93 octane.

Yawn, same basis.

[limeypride]

Those rules are all superseded by a newer rule which states you can go as quick as 10.000 with a 2008 or newer model year car provided it has stock turbos. Just be sure to tell the tech inspector your car is stock.

Yet again, show me. Where does it say that? On this one, I'd dearly love for you to be right but your reputation proceeds you... CONGRATS!

[DGVR6]

No, you're flat out wrong. It's not always how you say it but who says it. If you read my original response to him, I was actually extremely cordial. I even used phrases like "you might want to contact APR." I was never rude nor I did offend him; quite the contrary. If you read his response to me, however, he was extremely offensive and rude. He took it as an attack when I was just trying to show him his car is down on power.

Whether your were cordial or not, you come out combative/sarcastic in many of your post. It's hard to decipher emotions through a keyboard especially with your reputation.

So yea it's who says it.

[A3 Turbo]

You're really making yourself just look silly now by challenging me on things that are so easily proven. Is it so difficult to go to APR's website and see what the C7.5 RS7 puts down at the wheels with Stage 1 software on 100 octane? It isn't, so here you go:



That's with a standard exhaust and not a Akrapovic, too.

As for the NHRA rules, the dragstrip website you copied and pasted them from is probably like most other dragstrips' websites which aside from their schedules, don't seem to get updated more than once a decade. Here's the NHRA rule stating you can run as quick as 10.000 without a bar or cage:

http://www.dragzine.com/news/nhra-am...reet-vehicles/

Stuff like this is so easy to find on the net yet you continue to challenge me just like with the other RS7 Performance that put down 660whp. It wasn't fake. That's what they make. Your car is either broken or your IATs went through the roof on the dyno and as a safety precaution the ECU pulled timing and boost resulting in the low power numbers. Not sure why you're so defensive when I'm really just trying to help you understand there's a potential problem with your car.

I'm not arguing with you because that would imply you've a credible position with which I disagree... and yet you've offered nothing beyond uniformed opinions.



Show me. Here's your chance to make a credible argument... so take it and show me where it says that. Here's what I see:



... given the number quoted by Audi on APR's site is a crank number, call me a rebel but I'll take a leap of faith and assume APR's comparison-numbers are also at the crank.

[limeypride]

It's already been explained to you why folks react the way they do... so, listen or don't.

On the topic of the numbers you've posted, I'm happy to be civil again and now I'm intrigued: can you send me the link, please.

[A3 Turbo]

BTW, Ghost originally dynoed his RS7 Performance with APR Stage 1 tune and put down crappy numbers inline with yours. I was the first one to tell him something was wrong with his car. Same exact story as with you with everyone jumping down my throat. On my advice he contacted APR and it turns out he wasn't running the correct RS7 Performance specific tune from APR. So APR sent his local APR dealer the updated file and voila, that's when he went back for redemption and put down the 660whp.

So your car probably has the old inferior tune in it too. But all you want to do is argue with me when I'm trying to help you like I helped him.

[A3 Turbo]

http://youtu.be/7PSV5vrxrXs

Fast forward to 5:00. Other guy with same issues as him with the old file put down 590whp, the same exact number as your car lol. Ghost got the updated file from APR and put down the 660whp.

[limeypride]

BTW, Ghost originally dynoed his RS7 Performance with APR Stage 1 tune and put down crappy numbers inline with yours. I was the first one to tell him something was wrong with his car. Same exact story as with you with everyone jumping down my throat. On my advice he contacted APR and it turns out he wasn't running the correct RS7 Performance specific tune from APR. So APR sent his local APR dealer the updated file and voila, that's when he went back for redemption and put down the 660whp.

So your car probably has the old inferior tune in it too. But all you want to do is argue with me when I'm trying to help you like I helped him.

I can't help you with your interpersonal skills--that's your issue.

I will, however, tell you that 1) I don't buy Ghost's numbers which you use as the basis of your entire position, 2) I'm as confident as I can be that my car is running the right tune (I trust my dealer) and 3) your tone in this response is a shining example of "cordial"--learn from it (or don't).

[A3 Turbo]

You have a lot to learn if you "trust" your APR dealer. Not that they're lying or trying to deceive you. It's just they're quite frequently clueless. They themselves may not even know there's an updated tune or it may not be on the server. Like I said, it was a custom fix and brand new file that APR's lead calibrator had to write for Ghost's car.

Enjoy your car and hubris; I tried!

[limeypride]

You have a lot to learn if you "trust" your APR dealer. Not that they're lying or trying to deceive you. It's just they're quite frequently clueless. They themselves may not even know there's an updated tune or it may not be on the server. Like I said, it was a custom fix and brand new file that APR's lead calibrator had to write for Ghost's car.

Enjoy your car and hubris; I tried!

Nice punctuation; I'm impressed.

It's already been explained to you why folks react the way they do... so, listen or don't.

On the topic of the numbers you've posted, I'm happy to be civil again and now I'm intrigued: can you send me the link, please.

So the link... no?

[DGVR6]

You have a lot to learn if you "trust" your APR dealer. Not that they're lying or trying to deceive you. It's just they're quite frequently clueless. They themselves may not even know there's an updated tune or it may not be on the server. Like I said, it was a custom fix and brand new file that APR's lead calibrator had to write for Ghost's car.

Enjoy your car and hubris; I tried!

What's the lead calibrators number again?

[A3 Turbo]

Here's the first time I'll be non-cordial.

Are you really that retarded that you can't go to APR's website and locate the dyno charts?

Nice punctuation; I'm impressed.



So the link... no?

[A3 Turbo]

I'm not posting his number on the web lol.

What's the lead calibrators number again?

[limeypride]

Here's the first time I'll be non-cordial.

That's the second time you've made me laugh.

Are you really that retarded that you can't go to APR's website and locate the dyno charts?

Be credible; cite your sources--I'm not doing it for you. So, where's the link?

[Chris Morales]

Limey, drag racing your car should not be a problem. I am aware of the new car rule Vol is citing. Almost all drag strips' websites recite those old roll cage rules. Both the 1/4 mile dragstrips I go to are over 70 miles away and are heavily trafficked by Corvettes, Hellcats, GTRs, and numerous other late model cars running in the 10s with no roll cages. I've also been numerous times running 10s and this issue has never come up. Your situation there is no different than mine. Just make sure you have a helmet, and go out and race your car. I think you're ruling yourself out without trying. Call the dragstrip and ask if you need assurance.


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[Chris Morales]

https://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_u...c75rs6rs7.html

On the charts, choose stage 1 100 octane and "power and torque at the wheels" from the drop down menus. Those are for standard RS7s but I guess the numbers should at least be the same for your car.

Different dyno type and obviously different unit. But maybe it is worth checking with APR to make sure you have their latest and greatest. They can tell you by email if you provide your VIN.


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[limeypride]

Limey, drag racing your car should not be a problem. I am aware of the new car rule Vol is citing. Almost all drag strips' websites recite those old roll cage rules. Both the 1/4 mile dragstrips I go to are over 70 miles away and are heavily trafficked by Corvettes, Hellcats, GTRs, and numerous other late model cars running in the 10s with no roll cages. I've also been numerous times running 10s and this issue has never come up. Your situation there is no different than mine. Just make sure you have a helmet, and go out and race your car. I think you're ruling yourself out without trying. Call the dragstrip and ask if you need assurance.


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On your final note, sadly, that's where the information came from. However, you're right--there's no harm in trying and I spoke to Don on the same topic earlier and he echoed similar thinking... I think it's clear I need to try again in earnest.

[IowaRS7]

My local track still follows the old rules and will not budge, so I can not run there. I had to drive 70 miles away to race at another track. Really comes down to track owner and their risk tolerance.

[limeypride]

https://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_u...c75rs6rs7.html

On the charts, choose stage 1 100 octane and "power and torque at the wheels" from the drop down menus. Those are for standard RS7s but I guess the numbers should at least be the same for your car.

Different dyno type and obviously different unit. But maybe it is worth checking with APR to make sure you have their latest and greatest. They can tell you by email if you provide your VIN.

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Nod, agreed--there's enough doubt here for me to follow-up... but the metaphor, "don't shoot the messenger", is a tough pill to swallow in this case.

That said, the math and drivetrain losses that emerge from these two APR graphs (crank:wheel) are a little "off" to say the least. Torque losses based on their posted crank-to-wheel numbers are approx. 6%--folks have argued that 20% is too high but 6% seems far too low. The equivalent HP losses are slightly over 10%--more believable but even so. Hence, I remain skeptical... but not so much so that I won't follow up.

[limeypride]

My local track still follows the old rules and will not budge, so I can not run there. I had to drive 70 miles away to race at another track. Really comes down to track owner and their risk tolerance.

This was my takeaway from the phone conversation with Pacific Raceways but I think perhaps it's time I ignore that and just give it a go...

I've yet to find another venue that doesn't require a passport (slight embellishment there but you get my point).

[IowaRS7]

I wish I had an AWD dyno nearby. Fun experience to have the car on the dyno!!

How did you prepare for the dyno run? Have you had 100 octane in the tank for a while and running the tune for a while? Also, was the car allowed to cool down some before doing the run or did you pull in and hop on?

While dynojet dynos are supposed to read out somewhat close for any given factor, there are numerous variables that make that generalization one that I would not subscribe to unless I had correlation study results between the units I was comparing results for.

If you have other comparible dyno results from other cars on that unit, that would mean more to me than anything else.

[limeypride]

I wish I had an AWD dyno nearby. Fun experience to have the car on the dyno!!

Nod, I had a nice time chatting with folks.

How did you prepare for the dyno run? Have you had 100 octane in the tank for a while and running the tune for a while?

Not as much as I'd like.

Also, was the car allowed to cool down some before doing the run or did you pull in and hop on?

Thoroughly cooled down for each run--oil temp around 190 or thereabouts.

If you have other comparible dyno results from other cars on that unit, that would mean more to me than anything else.

Nod, I do... and I considered that data useful, too, so I mentioned it wayyyyyyyyyy earlier in this thread--apparently, it's not the popular thinking.

[IowaRS7]

This was my takeaway from the phone conversation with Pacific Raceways but I think perhaps it's time I ignore that and just give it a go...

I've yet to find another venue that doesn't require a passport (slight embellishment there but you get my point).

You could go claiming you have no idea what the car will run since you have never had it out to a track. Might be good for one run until they see your results

[IowaRS7]

Nod, I do... and I considered that data useful, too, so I mentioned it wayyyyyyyyyy earlier in this thread--apparently, it's not the popular thinking.

I consider that very useful as that is the only data you truly have to correlate results on that dyno. Ideally you would have stock numbers to show changes from the tune to validate gains, not necessarily absolute numbers. One could change the tune to pump gas, let the ECU settle in and take it back to the same dyno and see what happens. If you have similar gains to the APR claims between tunes, you know things are likely good to go and the numbers are just what that dyno is going to show, if the gains are lacking, you can further investigate. Another thing to consider is logging the car while on the dyno using VCDS or the APR bluetooth dongle. Having some additional information to review never hurts and it's so much easier to get that data while on the dyno vs on the road since you have to hit crazy speeds to get good data.

[IowaRS7]

I followed the Ghost thread and have watched the videos, I think I linked that for one of your threads a while back given it was a performance model related topic. I believe at that time you validated with APR you had the most current file. I find it hard to believe that if APR truly had a different tune for the performance model they would release it and charge more money for it. Why not? The only plausible explanation is that it has not been tested or validated enough for them to feel good releasing it. APR has certainly released new revisions over time for their tunes as they learn and validate performance to be able to back their claims. Maybe there is something in the pipeline.

Now, could his tune have been new for a certain box code or ECU revision and it was not quite right out of the gate? Seems possible, and maybe that is all that happened, not some new build for the performance model car. Not sure we will ever know answers to the Ghost story. I wonder Limey as you recall, there was not a tune for our ECU revision available and APR released it after I had my shop submit the request. Maybe there is something in that release for our ECU revision that needs to be looked at? I don't know and unfortunately don't have an AWD dyno to check that out. I do hope to make it back to the track soon to test out the 104 file and that might give me the results needed to put that to rest. I felt pretty good with the results I had the first time out on the 93 oct map with the stock tires and a 3500 DA.

I personally have never had an issue with APR tunes being not as advertised, but have had other company tunes that were not, only to find out that the file was not quite right or that someone had uploaded the wrong thing. I know Mickey had issues with EPL and his tune as advertised. It happens, and the only way to validate is to use some measure of comparable results. The problem with Dynos in my experience is that you have no idea how to observe and control for the variables. You would hope that all shops properly maintain and setup the equipment per the manufacturer suggestions but that is not the case. At the track there are variables, but they are easily accounted for.

[Chris Morales]

My local track still follows the old rules and will not budge, so I can not run there. I had to drive 70 miles away to race at another track. Really comes down to track owner and their risk tolerance.

Is it an NHRA track? Did you actually show up and try to race? I'm wondering if it's a situation of someone not knowing what he is talking about (or not knowing what you are talking about). This is the first I've heard of this happening for a newer car.

Here is the statement of the NHRA rule: http://www.dragzine.com/news/nhra-am...reet-vehicles/

I looked up the IHRA rules and the rulebook contains a substantially identical exception for 2008 and newer street cars.

[IowaRS7]

Is it an NHRA track? Did you actually show up and try to race? I'm wondering if it's a situation of someone not knowing what he is talking about (or not knowing what you are talking about). This is the first I've heard of this happening for a newer car.

Here is the statement of the NHRA rule: http://www.dragzine.com/news/nhra-am...reet-vehicles/

I looked up the IHRA rules and the rulebook contains a substantially identical exception for 2008 and newer street cars.

Yes, it is and the owner does allow for a hand full of open test and tune days but very little compared to the other track I had to go to. I spoke directly to the owner and he emailed me their track rules as well. They can certainly require cars off the street to meet their requirements at their discretion. Most of the events there are NHRA sanctioned events, so not as open to general public racing. The other track is very open to the public paying to race and have fun. A much different experience between the tracks.

[limeypride]

I followed the Ghost thread and have watched the videos, I think I linked that for one of your threads a while back given it was a performance model related topic. I believe at that time you validated with APR you had the most current file. I find it hard to believe that if APR truly had a different tune for the performance model they would release it and charge more money for it. Why not? The only plausible explanation is that it has not been tested or validated enough for them to feel good releasing it. APR has certainly released new revisions over time for their tunes as they learn and validate performance to be able to back their claims. Maybe there is something in the pipeline.

Nod, I recall... and I agree they'd release something if they have it--perhaps it's still coming and Ghost had an early, early beta. The tune I have right now was validated by my local dealer (in whom I have a great deal of confidence) but there's no harm hearing it again straight from the horse's mouth. I'll post back what they say.

I still don't understand the underlying math in the variance betwee APR's crank and wheel numbers but, that aside, let's say their wheel numbers are accurate. If so, my torque results are higher and horsepower numbers lower. If I look at my first run, both numbers are lower than APR. The second run was whack in my opinion since it showed over 800 aw torque so I dismissed it. My suspicion is the tune wasn't afforded enough time with the 101 octane gas to fully adapt--my bad but time wasn't on my side.

[HeelBuff]

Cracks me up. Limeypride, you are being trolled by the infamous Vol 4.0 who has been banned from this site multiple times. His newest incarnation joined this site 4/28 this year but magically has detailed knowledge of Ghost and all the historical data associated with that car, APR, etc. Also his posting pattern fits Vol's to a T.

In short, illegitimi non carborundum.

[Ze_Nardo6]

I know Mickey had issues with EPL and his tune as advertised. It happens, and the only way to validate is to use some measure of comparable results. The problem with Dynos in my experience is that you have no idea how to observe and control for the variables. You would hope that all shops properly maintain and setup the equipment per the manufacturer suggestions but that is not the case. At the track there are variables, but they are easily accounted for.

I used the same dyno and track to compare my baseline figures to my stage 1 figures. The dyno I use reads incredibly low in comparison to most (mustang dyno - figures in signature). That being said, when I went back for my stage 1 numbers, they were not where they should've been over my baseline numbers. That was my first indication that something was wrong. Then I went to the track to validate my concern, to which it was. I emailed Tony and he dedicated a ton of time to digging into my issue, and almost immediately. Within a week I had a revised version of the tune. Wasn't able to get back to the track but at the same dyno, 2 weeks later and in hotter temps, it put down significantly better figures. I didn't care to take it all the way back to the track (120 mile round trip) to validate as using the same dyno, calibration, operator 2 weeks apart would likely remove variables from the equation. This is a rare example where I find dynos useful

[limeypride]

Cracks me up. Limeypride, you are being trolled by the infamous Vol 4.0 who has been banned from this site multiple times. His newest incarnation joined this site 4/28 this year but magically has detailed knowledge of Ghost and all the historical data associated with that car, APR, etc. Also his posting pattern fits Vol's to a T.

In short, illegitimi non carborundum.

Thanks... noted.

Banned from a car forum; I didn't even know anyone was watching. // I say that because myself and others have asked numerous times for a certain thread to be made "sticky" but heard nothing in return.

[Chris Morales]

It happens quickly when you F with a vendor. The vendor complains to the eye in the sky, and the instigator's account get blocked quickly. Don't mess with the revenue stream.

[limeypride]

It happens quickly when you F with a vendor. The vendor complains to the eye in the sky, and the instigator's account get blocked quickly. Don't mess with the revenue stream.

Indeed.

[kouzman]

Yet again, show me. Where does it say that? On this one, I'd dearly love for you to be right but your reputation proceeds you... CONGRATS!

He is correct. Newer cars can run ad low as 10.00 on stock turbos. Only requirement below 11.50 is a fire jacket. Google NHRA rulebook and you will find everything yoi need.

[limeypride]

He is correct. Newer cars can run ad low as 10.00 on stock turbos. Only requirement below 11.50 is a fire jacket. Google NHRA rulebook and you will find everything yoi need.

Yup, thanks... acknowledged. The track near me apparently doesn't honor those new rules. The rules posted on their site are perhaps out-of-date so I verbally confirmed--same story. So I guess I'll need to make the best possible use of my one and only run (assuming after that, they won't let me run again).

[Chris Morales]

Bet you get to run all night with no issues. There are three sets of rules: the written rules, the known rules, and the enforced rules.


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[limeypride]

Bet you get to run all night with no issues. There are three sets of rules: the written rules, the known rules, and the enforced rules.


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That would sure be nice... I'll let you know when it happens.

[ndabunka]

Can you explain how a live video of an RS7 putting down 660whp on a Dynojet could NOT be credible? I can't think of a way to fake something like that. Dynojets are inertia based and can't be manipulated outside of which correction factor you use. Other dynos like Mustang Dynos, Dyno Dynamics etc absolutely can be manipulated to essentially read however you want but unless something has changed recently, there's no real way to fake a Dynojet.

If you look at APR's own dyno data, you can see your still way down on power. And I've never seen a tuned RS7 drop off power like yours with RPM. They usually hold peak HP all the way to redline.

Lots of ways including "juicing" the Dyno by using the wrong correction factors or the wrong gear while on the dyno, etc. Surely you are just trying to get Limey's goat.. LOL

[cobrario]

The old saying: opinions are like a-holes applies here for dynos as well, and certain forum members for that matter...fwiw I put down 526 on a Mustang but have the fastest Stage 1 car to date, guess my car is broke too.