Oil Starvation of Cams?, 1.8T

[fR3ZNO]

Instead of posting in the "questions you thought were too dumb to ask" thread, I figured it would be better to make a dedicated thread. I've also read the 1.8T oil pressure survival guide just to familiarize myself with the oiling system.

About a week ago, I had started to notice a rattle/tick at idle (800 RPM). I first suspected the cam chain tensioner since that was where the sound seemed to be coming from, but what I found odd was that it made this sound at cold idle and hot idle. With other 1.8T's I have found that a cam chain tensioner issue will present itself once the oil has come to operating temperatures.

Clicky Click for video of noise

If RPMs are raised even the slightest amount, 900 RPM or so, the rattle/tick would go away (see video).

Next, I decided to pull the valve cover. Upon removal, I noticed there was unusual wear on the cam lobes for both the exhaust and intake cams.



I failed to pull any of the cam caps to see if there was any wear on the journals. I will have to pull it again to check. I then put the valve cover back and got some oil pressure readings. The readings were done while hot after a 20~ min. drive. Coolant level sensor plug was disconnected to remove the coolant reservoir to access the test port, hence the warning on the DIS.















The pressure gauge was connected to the test port on the oil filter housing.

After seeing these readings, I am stumped as to the cause for the wear I am seeing. The previous owner of the car took good care of it as far as I know, and I have always changed the oil every 5k with high quality synthetic 5W40 and a Mann filter. The car also has never been run low on oil to cause starvation to the oil pump.

My usual step after this would be to pull the oil pan, but if there's no reason to do so, I'd rather not waste my time. Based on the oil pressure readings, I would imagine that the pickup tube is not clogged.

I have been contemplating getting a replacement set of cams and cam chain tensioner as a start. But first I would like to know how to verify oil supply to the cam journals and lobes before replacing the cams?

[fR3ZNO]

Just noticed the line in the Bentley that states "If oil pressure exceeds maximum specification, malfunctions with the high pressure relief valve are indicated" I am guessing that is referring to the Maximum oil pressure (all engines) of 102 psi.

[Luxus Panzer]

My readings from my records. Also using the test port near the oil cooler.

Shell Rotilla T6

Hot oil.


17-18 PSI at idle.
40 PSI at 2K RPM
64 PSI at 3k RPM

All readings taken in 3rd gear, not that it matters.

[fR3ZNO]

Also found this post by CyberPMG with pretty much identical wear pattern and symptoms (sound coming from cam chain tensioner).

When I did get back and mobile, I noticed a ticking noise coming from the back of the engine... sounded like the cam chain tensioner was going bad.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

That almost sounds like injectors pulsing. The injectors on these cars are pretty loud. Your oil pressures look pretty good, so I doubt your pick up is clogged.

The wear on the cam lobes does not look excessive but if I had to guess I would say most of it is from start up when much of the oil has drained out of the head and it takes a second or two for the oil to circulate back in to the galleys and lube the cam jurnals. It may be worth running an oil additive like the one below. This actually will coat everything offering protection on start up until proper oil flow is reached.

Click HERE to order or for more information


You add this every oil change. For the extra protection its worth it.

Jason

[fR3ZNO]

My readings from my records. Also using the test port near the oil cooler.

Shell Rotilla T6

Hot oil.


17-18 PSI at idle.
40 PSI at 2K RPM
64 PSI at 3k RPM

All readings taken in 3rd gear, not that it matters.

Thanks for chiming in. I was running Rotella T6 as well, but on this oil change went to 0W40 Castrol Edge. Mine were taken with the car stationary, not while driving. I would think that a load on the engine could affect oil pressure.

[fR3ZNO]

That almost sounds like injectors pulsing. The injectors on these cars are pretty loud. Your oil pressures look pretty good, so I doubt your pick up is clogged.

The wear on the cam lobes does not look excessive but if I had to guess I would say most of it is from start up when much of the oil has drained out of the head and it takes a second or two for the oil to circulate back in to the galleys and lube the cam jurnals. It may be worth running an oil additive like the one below. This actually will coat everything offering protection on start up until proper oil flow is reached.

You add this every oil change. For the extra protection its worth it.

Jason

I had never heard this particular sound before during my ownership. It is loud enough that you can hear it while in the cabin. So I'm doubting it's the injectors. I do appreciate the input, though!

[AudiA4_20T]

hard to tell if that is something that's happening now or was the result of something a long time ago. I've seen plenty of junkyard cars with similar wear marks that seem to keep chugging along just fine.

[fR3ZNO]

hard to tell if that is something that's happening now or was the result of something a long time ago. I've seen plenty of junkyard cars with similar wear marks that seem to keep chugging along just fine.

Yeah, when I pulled the valve cover, there looked to be a decent amount of oil in the head and on the cams, etc.

I have been to a couple autocross sessions, one in May and another about two weeks ago. So I'm not sure if this occurred during one of those. It's just that the noise doesn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. haha.

[rollerton]

I am helping a friend with an 03' that makes the exact same noise, only LOUDER. Like super super super loud, it sounds like an 80's Rabbit diesel lots of the time. I replaced the head on that car about 3 months ago after it overheated and it didn't make the noise before the head job or afterwards, until about 2 weeks ago. On this car it does not make the noise on very cold start, but after a few minutes it starts slowly to get noisy. And then it'll be noisy sort of intermittently; sometimes the noise will stop for a few minutes and then come back. Always goes away at about 1200-1600 rpm. The chain tensioner was replaced with new OEM about a year ago and the pads are perfect, and it doesn't do it at cold start so I'm pretty sure it's not the CCT, even though it is coming from that area.
I think it's a lifter. I mean what else could it be?
I may try heavier oil in it before I start taking it apart (if i ever do), or maybe a Seafoam or Liqui-moly treatment? To see if it's sludgyness or buildup in that area or something. If it's a lifter I kind of think it can't cause any damage and it'll eventually stop on it's own (or not).
I'm not sure...but I don't want to take it back apart!
The wear on your camshaft looks totally normal to me, I've seen all kinds of weird wear on the lobes, but that doesn't look out of the ordinary from my experience. The lifter surface will leave that kind of wear because they top is not machined perfectly flat, but very slightly cupped so that the camshaft causes the lifter to spin slightly as it goes up and down. That helps with lubricating the lifter on the sides.

[walky_talky20]

Mine had a tick at idle. I confirmed excellent oil pressure. I replaced all of the exhaust lifters and it went away. I also replaced all the exhaust valves at the same time, but that's another story. lol

[fR3ZNO]

I am helping a friend with an 03' that makes the exact same noise, only LOUDER. Like super super super loud, it sounds like an 80's Rabbit diesel lots of the time. I replaced the head on that car about 3 months ago after it overheated and it didn't make the noise before the head job or afterwards, until about 2 weeks ago. On this car it does not make the noise on very cold start, but after a few minutes it starts slowly to get noisy. And then it'll be noisy sort of intermittently; sometimes the noise will stop for a few minutes and then come back. Always goes away at about 1200-1600 rpm. The chain tensioner was replaced with new OEM about a year ago and the pads are perfect, and it doesn't do it at cold start so I'm pretty sure it's not the CCT, even though it is coming from that area.
I think it's a lifter. I mean what else could it be?
I may try heavier oil in it before I start taking it apart (if i ever do), or maybe a Seafoam or Liqui-moly treatment? To see if it's sludgyness or buildup in that area or something. If it's a lifter I kind of think it can't cause any damage and it'll eventually stop on it's own (or not).
I'm not sure...but I don't want to take it back apart!
The wear on your camshaft looks totally normal to me, I've seen all kinds of weird wear on the lobes, but that doesn't look out of the ordinary from my experience. The lifter surface will leave that kind of wear because they top is not machined perfectly flat, but very slightly cupped so that the camshaft causes the lifter to spin slightly as it goes up and down. That helps with lubricating the lifter on the sides.

Interesting input, much appreciated.

Only difference with my scenario is that it does make the noise after a cold start and RPM's settle to 800, like in the morning before I leave for work.

Mine is also intermittent at times, noise will go away for maybe 10-20 seconds and come back.

The wear is unusual to me at least, my family has had a few 1.8T B5 Passats that I've done work on and haven't seen wear on the lobes like that before.

Mine had a tick at idle. I confirmed excellent oil pressure. I replaced all of the exhaust lifters and it went away. I also replaced all the exhaust valves at the same time, but that's another story. lol

I've bent my fair share of valves in my time

[BARRY]

every 1.8t i've opened has wear like that...as those are the back side of the cams any wear there that doesn't catch a finger nail should be ignored. same with the lifters/buckets...if they show zero wear, back of camshaft should be ignored.

cheers to LiquiMoly MoS2...i use Motul 8100 5w-40 and LiquiMoly MoS2 exclusively on all of my vehicles. same with my friends and family.

[CyberPMG]

How many miles are on the car? I'm assuming this is the original oil pump. With wear on the cam, you might want to get a compression test done and replace the cam. Check to make sure the valves aren't sticking.

[fR3ZNO]

every 1.8t i've opened has wear like that...as those are the back side of the cams any wear there that doesn't catch a finger nail should be ignored. same with the lifters/buckets...if they show zero wear, back of camshaft should be ignored.

cheers to LiquiMoly MoS2...i use Motul 8100 5w-40 and LiquiMoly MoS2 exclusively on all of my vehicles. same with my friends and family.

Yeah, didn't catch anything with my fingernail.

How many miles are on the car? I'm assuming this is the original oil pump. With wear on the cam, you might want to get a compression test done and replace the cam. Check to make sure the valves aren't sticking.

160k miles, original oil pump as well as far as I know. Thanks for the advice, I'll check to see what compression numbers I'm getting.

[Paperclips43]

Yeah, didn't catch anything with my fingernail.



160k miles, original oil pump as well as far as I know. Thanks for the advice, I'll check to see what compression numbers I'm getting.

Any update with this? You discover the source and potential solution to your tick?