Clutch/Flywheel setup

[AudiTuner1187]

I'm starting to feel some slipping in the extreme torque situations and once it does, it stays hot and keeps slipping even under moderate load. If I'm nice to it, it will never slip, mostly only on hard acceleration in low gears.
So, I'm looking for the best set up without breaking the bank. I have seen lots of people use rs4 hybrid clutch and have no problems with K04's. Anyone feel like that clutch is sufficient for stage 3? I'm not there yet but will be. Also, lots of talk about the dual mass flywheel. Can I safely keep stock flywheel and resurface? Or do I need to get a single mass. If I do go single mass, I don't want lightweight. What flywheel should I use? South bend seems like best but, almost $800 just for flywheel is hard to buy just for some peace of mind. I would love to keep costs below 1k but, doesn't seem like that's going to happen. Any input is greatly appreciated, along with your current set up and how satisfied you are.

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[Clockwerks]

Welcome to my world! I've just completed my clutch saga starting last fall...
The quick answer is that I'm now running a Southbend Stage 3 endurance clutch with a Spec lightweight flywheel. I'm still in the breaking in period as I just got it back last week, but so far it feels great and seems to hold just fine. I'm running GT28r turbo's with meth and mods and the car dyno'ed at 420whp and 410wtq at the wheels. My major concern was cost as well as abilty to hold the torque.
I started this journey with a Clutchmasters 850 dual disc clutch and LWAF that started chattering and slipping once my boost went past about 17 pounds. I sent the clutch back to Clutchmasters for a rebuild and they quoted me $1000 but only warranted for 10,000 miles. Or they would sell me a new kit for $2400...
My mechanic suggested Southbend so I ordered the above and the Fidenza flywheel, which doesn't work with the Souhtbend.. After a ton of calls and emails to and from ECS and Fidanza and returning the clutch for another one, I found out in February that they were not compatible. Meanwhile my mechanic is having to push my car in and out of his shop for 3 months as we try to sort this out and keep trying different things. Finally have it back and my mechanic cut me such a great deal on labor that I just left the allroad to have all the leaking seals replaced. So I'll be writing him an even bigger check this week! So far it feels a lot like my stock allroad clutch and I'm very happy so far. And it was about the most inexpensive route I could find.
Good luck!

[02 A6 2.7T]

So, I'm looking for the best set up without breaking the bank. I have seen lots of people use rs4 hybrid clutch and have no problems with K04's. Anyone feel like that clutch is sufficient for stage 3? I'm not there yet but will be. Also, lots of talk about the dual mass flywheel. Can I safely keep stock flywheel and resurface? Or do I need to get a single mass. If I do go single mass, I don't want lightweight. What flywheel should I use? South bend seems like best but, almost $800 just for flywheel is hard to buy just for some peace of mind. I would love to keep costs below 1k but, doesn't seem like that's going to happen. Any input is greatly appreciated, along with your current set up and how satisfied you are.

From post#7 here: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...light=flywheel .
It looks like a great $550 solution ...

Not sure if this link goes right to it, but still says the B7 Rs4 kit is $137 :
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/a...lutch+kit,1993


And it looks like SRM is selling the TTV flywheels now:
http://sillyrabbitmotorsport.com/ttv-flywheel

To my knowledge the TTV flywheel is a straight bolt on and made specifically for this purpose. It's said to be more forgiving than the B5 Rs4 pressure plate but same holding power or more.

[Wide-66]

Dont by TTV i got them to admit bad machining and weak impulse signal which can lead to misfire. I ended up going with an aasco flywheel with a machined tone ring that had squared off edges and an amd clutch. I really like the combo. This was just my experience and an FYI to others.

[Xplycko]

[IMG][/IMG]

I am about to start that very venture right now tonight. I went with the LUK pressure plate and throw out bearing from Germany and an S clutch disc. I am also going to replace the front and rear transmission seals while I have it out, the input and output shaft, as this is the perfect opportunity. I also went ahead and bought a crankshaft seal for the rear with a crankshaft cover gasket as well. I will have the trans out so now is also the perfect time for that. I will be using my stock DMFW because it is still within tolerance and in good shape overall. I will be having the machine shop mill .060 off of the outer ring to increase pressure from the pressure plate. The clutch surface was within .002 when I turned it in with a dial indicator so I will give it a good scuffing with the small Brillo pad attachment for my small air angle grinder. I have done this in the past with my BMW's and it has never failed me if the flywheel was in good shape. I will try to get some pics for the forum. As on your conundrum, South Bend imo makes the finest clutches you can purchase and there quality excels after the initial purchase as their customer service is fantastic. I ran SB's clutch set's on my 12 valve Cummins pulling trucks. Good luck and God's Speed with your build.

[AudiTuner1187]

Welcome to my world! I've just completed my clutch saga starting last fall...
The quick answer is that I'm now running a Southbend Stage 3 endurance clutch with a Spec lightweight flywheel. I'm still in the breaking in period as I just got it back last week, but so far it feels great and seems to hold just fine. I'm running GT28r turbo's with meth and mods and the car dyno'ed at 420whp and 410wtq at the wheels. My major concern was cost as well as abilty to hold the torque.
I started this journey with a Clutchmasters 850 dual disc clutch and LWAF that started chattering and slipping once my boost went past about 17 pounds. I sent the clutch back to Clutchmasters for a rebuild and they quoted me $1000 but only warranted for 10,000 miles. Or they would sell me a new kit for $2400...
My mechanic suggested Southbend so I ordered the above and the Fidenza flywheel, which doesn't work with the Souhtbend.. After a ton of calls and emails to and from ECS and Fidanza and returning the clutch for another one, I found out in February that they were not compatible. Meanwhile my mechanic is having to push my car in and out of his shop for 3 months as we try to sort this out and keep trying different things. Finally have it back and my mechanic cut me such a great deal on labor that I just left the allroad to have all the leaking seals replaced. So I'll be writing him an even bigger check this week! So far it feels a lot like my stock allroad clutch and I'm very happy so far. And it was about the most inexpensive route I could find.
Good luck!

These are the exact problems I am trying to avoid lol. I appreciate it much. So, looks like your setup cost you about 2k. Thats what I was scared you people were going to say I plan on being exactly where you are in about a year so I dont want to be doing it again when i get another 100 hp.

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[AudiTuner1187]

Dont by TTV i got them to admit bad machining and weak impulse signal which can lead to misfire. I ended up going with an aasco flywheel with a machined tone ring that had squared off edges and an amd clutch. I really like the combo. This was just my experience and an FYI to others.

Looks like about a $1,600 solution. Not too bad for those torque ratings.

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[Xplycko]

Just wanted to ad with my setup I'm out about $500 but I don't plan on going much more than 320hp. So if your going to step way up there like some of these guys past 400hp my setup prob wouldn't work for you.

[AudiTuner1187]

[IMG][/IMG]

I am about to start that very venture right now tonight. I went with the LUK pressure plate and throw out bearing from Germany and an S clutch disc. I am also going to replace the front and rear transmission seals while I have it out, the input and output shaft, as this is the perfect opportunity. I also went ahead and bought a crankshaft seal for the rear with a crankshaft cover gasket as well. I will have the trans out so now is also the perfect time for that. I will be using my stock DMFW because it is still within tolerance and in good shape overall. I will be having the machine shop mill .060 off of the outer ring to increase pressure from the pressure plate. The clutch surface was within .002 when I turned it in with a dial indicator so I will give it a good scuffing with the small Brillo pad attachment for my small air angle grinder. I have done this in the past with my BMW's and it has never failed me if the flywheel was in good shape. I will try to get some pics for the forum. As on your conundrum, South Bend imo makes the finest clutches you can purchase and there quality excels after the initial purchase as their customer service is fantastic. I ran SB's clutch set's on my 12 valve Cummins pulling trucks. Good luck and God's Speed with your build.

Well..if this is the case can i just slap south bend stage 3 clutch on with stock DMFW? As long as FW is within spec of course. We might be getting to my 1k mark

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-south-be...t/k70286ssokt/

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[Xplycko]

I personally have no qualms with the DMFW. I ran one on an E30 BMW with a 2.5 stroker and a single 40mm screw. I was making an estimated 410 hp at 20psi, around 15psi is was really friendly and would still get stupid through 3rd gear. A lot of these guys like to run a new flywheel every clutch swap and there is nothing wrong with that if you have the coin. I am a Locomotive Millwright and we re use some hard parts as long as they are in spec. Some will say never re use a flywheel and some will be the exact opposite. In the end you have to be comfortable with your decision. I personally re use them if they are in good shape, but then again I don't abuse them 24/7 either and always brake my new clutches in for 500 miles before I ever turn up the heat. I like to think sense we have quality German parts at our disposal they are better built and the quality is more often much better than the norm. If the base of the flywheel is within tolerance I would just scuff it up, if you find a place that can turn that's rare but very fortunate. Never turn the base where the clutch disc goes with anything but a rock though. If it's turned with cutting dies the surface will not mate with the new clutch disc properly. I would also like to ad that the single mass flywheels can often be turned down several times and the lightened one's are nice but can make a lot of noise. The lightened flywheel doesn't make more hp but it lets you put more to the pavement. I personally don't track my car but could see where every little pony sent to the wheels would be beneficial.

[02 A6 2.7T]

A brand new LuK DMFW can be had on Amazon.com for under $340 shipped ... part number DMF027 ...

[V1nny]

From post#7 here: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...light=flywheel .
It looks like a great $550 solution ...

hat solution looks fantastic, and I am seriously consider it for my stage 3. My only concern extremely cheap $137 clutch from rockauto. Can it b a real OEM part at this price, or some Chinese copy that's going to fail soon?

[02 A6 2.7T]

hat solution looks fantastic, and I am seriously consider it for my stage 3. My only concern extremely cheap $137 clutch from rockauto. Can it b a real OEM part at this price, or some Chinese copy that's going to fail soon?

If it's LuK, it's the real deal, not Chinese. IMHO, everything I've gotten from Rockauto is the exact brand and part number it was listed as on their website ...

[Xplycko]

hat solution looks fantastic, and I am seriously consider it for my stage 3. My only concern extremely cheap $137 clutch from rockauto. Can it b a real OEM part at this price, or some Chinese copy that's going to fail soon?

It is all legitimate, the box and clutch have Germany engraved on them. From what I have gathered Rock Auto is purely in the business of wholesale to the public. The exact same setup from other retailers is $250+

[AudiTuner1187]

Wow, seems almost too good to be true. But, I guess there's plenty of competition on pricing. 550 bucks for full set up is a steal if it can handle 400 ft lbs. Looks like I'll have to give it a go and pray I'm not going thru same thing next year.

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[Xplycko]

I will let you know just how good it holds in 500 miles ;/

[V1nny]

Just off the phone with SRM, They warned me that B7 RS4 clutch does not hold on properly tuned stage 3 B5. I was ready to buy, now is just scratching my head, not sure what's to buy..
I have high mileage APB with almost 50K on stage3, and was planning to swap for low mileage APM engine from 03 Allroad.

[Xplycko]

That's weird because the clutch is rated over 380hp. Are you going to be making over that with a stage 3 tune? I am ignorant here with hp to tunes with there being so many. The only problem I see is where maybe the tuned cars have a more dramatic or savage spool up causing slippage on the initial hard boost.

[V1nny]

If B7 RS4 clutch is rated only 380hp at the crank, it totally makes sense, as most K04 stage 3 S4 make bit more than that. It should be rated in torque, but hp approximation may be ok.

[AudiTuner1187]

I will let you know just how good it holds in 500 miles ;/

Perfect, I'm extremely curious.

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[V1nny]

Just bought South Bend Stage 2 Endurance Clutch, rated at 470ft/lbs and 12 lbs single mass flywheel, ECS gave me a decent deal on a combo.

[julex]

12lb FW will rattle the tranny gears like mad and the anti-judder parts of ECU will go mad since the weight of FW is way off what it has hardcoded inside. I had couple of these in past so I know. The TTV Fw is a perfect medium ground here.

Extremely light FW tend to cause bad jerking of car when coasting in low speed, low rpms and coming on/off light throttle - like that crwaling traffic situation and you simply want to stay in 2nd gear at around idle rpms.

[4rings2turbos]

RS 4 clutch will NOT hold stage 3. It doesn't hold my aggressive stage 2+

A 12lb flywheel does chatter and wouldn't recommend it someone that will mind the bit of clatter at idle. It's barely louder than my mild exhaust though and my car is becoming more extreme bit by bit so it's all very fine. I do not experience extra judder like Julex mentions, though I'm just one experience. I will likely consider a steel SMFW next time though.

[V1nny]

I would say 12lbs is not extremely light. There are many SMFW in the range of 8-9 lbs on the market. Hoping it is not going to be too bad.
same part reviewed at 034 site:
Nice and light! Fits great.
My stock DMFW was falling apart and I got this to replace it. The engine revs much happier now, and holy shit is this thing light compared to the stock part! Had to heat up the flywheel a bit to install over the crankshaft, as mentioned by 034.

NGP sells same part with the warning:
Please Note: Some vehicles will have increased noise from the transmission / throw-out bearing when using a lightweight flywheel. This is normal and not predictable from vehicle to vehicle. (some are louder than others)

[4rings2turbos]

I think mine (Fidanza) is like 11.x, IIRC. It really won't be too bad for you I'm sure. The extra rev response is really worth it to me. SO MUCH LIGHTER than stock.

[chris86vw]

In my experience the weight is less significant in the issue with rattling of the gear boxes than the fact that the light weight units are also single mass vs the stock dual mass which can absorb any vibrations caused by imbalances.

The clutch and flywheel setup in my A3 is actually silent right now, no louder than a stock dual mass is and there is no audible gear rattle despite it being close to half the weight. But I have just been driving it around locally with no hard runs and being easy on the clutch. If I go out and beat the snot out of it, launch it a bit, get it hot then it will rattle for a few days. This experience being identical on other cars I own(ed) that were switched to single mass flywheels it seems a lot of the rattling is related to deposits on the flywheel and pressure plate and how that may alter the overall balance of the assemble. This is something that the dual mass is designed to absorb and you never notice. A slightly heavier flywheel may not be thrown off as much by those deposits so it is less noticeable, so yes weight is still a factor, but if your flywheel is rattling a lot sometimes just driving it around easy can clear it up. Driving around means actually operating the clutch not just getting on the highway and putting miles on it. Think of it like cleaning up some deposits that are causing brake judder only easy use is what cleans it up not a bunch of repeated hard stops.

[4rings2turbos]

Really light flywheels chatter out of the box.

Not all light flywheels chatter but all light flywheels are single mass so that's a bit of a moot point. (there are a rare few lightened dual mass flywheels, yes, but they are so expensive and rare and not that light that anyone should even consider them.) Like julex said adding a couple pounds and getting steel LWFW is enough to quell the gear rollover. Indicating that weight is a significant factor.

Also worth noting that dual mass flywheels can't handle the clamp pressure that single mass can, another reason to move to single if you're looking for power.

[chris86vw]

[QUOTE=4rings2turbos;12263842]Really light flywheels chatter out of the box.[quote]

I've run down to a 7lbs in one of my 1.8ts and depending on clutch or how I was driving, it did or did not chatter. Before that it has a 21lbs flywheel never ran it that heavy, I think I was able to trim down to about 17 or 18lbs, it chattered at times especially if I was out having fun. Commute for a few days and it would quiet down.

I've had two nearly identical weight flywheels in my A3 and one chattered often and was hard to get to clean up and balance out, the current one almost never chatters and cleans up well, it is the lighter of the two.

So I don't disagree but my point was that weight is not the pure cause.

Not all light flywheels chatter but all light flywheels are single mass so that's a bit of a moot point.

Not entirely moot.

The point was that people focus too much on the weight and discount too much the change to a single mass. The main advantage of the dual mass in helping to quiet the transmission is not it's overall weight but rather that it can absorb the engine vibrations and not transmit them to the gears. Most people have little experience with both let alone different weights in a single application so they just say oh this is lighter that must be why. Yes the weight is still a factor but understanding the cause, vibrations transmitting through an object that isn't balanced and unable to absorb them, can help you deal with the chatter and still be able to run a very light flywheel.


Going back to the 1.8t (transverse) for a moment. The stock dual mass flywheel was very heavy, but the disc and pressure plate were actually extremely light. When people went to the steel flywheels I noted above that start at ~21lbs and add the matching clutch (mk3 vr6) the overall weight is very close to what the complete stock dual mass was. This was not a weight reducing solution it was just to get rid of weak dual mass flywheels and pressure plates that would explode, the rattled.

[4rings2turbos]

7lbs is crazy light

[V1nny]

pretty educational. I can't wait to find out, but still looking for someone in Washington DC area to do the engine swap and clutch install.

[Xplycko]

Good stuff guys. So 4ring if the rs clutch won't hold on a stage 2 your making over 380 at the crank or LUK is fibbing to us. I am going to look into this clutch I just bought because I eventually want to go to stage 2 and I will be upset if it slips. Are you pushing a lot of boost 4ring?

[4rings2turbos]

I'm running a lot of boost and it won't hold my launches. If you don't launch and your tune isn't as aggressive then likely you'll be fine at stage 2. I also have 325 series R compound rear tires so there is a crap ton of grip and very little slip- all the weight is sent to the clutch and it can't handle it.

I've never dyno'd but my car gave an F21 allroad on a mild tune a run for it's money in the mountains. I brushed it off as the tires but he said no, he had a hard time pulling me on the straights. It must be a healthy stage 2 motor, plus I have about 200lbs weight shed.

[Xplycko]

Nice bro! Well I prob won't launch much just spirited driving. And yeah I have seen your sick wide azz tires lol. Who's stage 2 are you running?

[4rings2turbos]

A customized Daz tune

[Xplycko]

Right on. Those are no longer available right?

[4rings2turbos]

His stuff moved on to Vag Autowerks, or he was working with them or something like that? Apparently they're difficult to contact or changed their name or deleted their Facebook. I know nothing for sure only that everyone suggests Stuklr now :)

[Xplycko]

I have a buddy here who has a friend that does a vag tune. He remotely accesses my laptop with all the software needed. I would like to learn to tune myself but man it scares me a little tbh. I about have my car completely squared away then its tune time. Sorry for the derail in post.

[4rings2turbos]

I started to look into it but decided that since I don't understand coding language that I should run away haha.

Daz remotely tuned my car every time, pretty cool!

[Xplycko]

Right on.

[Robsa6]

Well I'm running a Fidanza LWF and an RS4 pressure plate and s4 disc and I launch it, rev the shit out of it, and generally drive it like I stole it every time I'm in it and it's working for me. This is after 2 ClutchMasters FX300 clutches that died within 5 months each. This one is going on 6 months and no sign of slipping or chattering. I'm Stage 3 with PJ KO4's and in an A6. Don't know what I'll go with next but I'm getting good at pulling the engine and transmission to change it out!