Dealer says I need new engine?!

[momspaghetti]

Hi Guys,

Wondering if you can help me out here. So, last week I had a 'Final Destination' moment driving to Subway and was nearly T-boned when my Audi suddenly lost power. To me it felt like the car was out of gas. The more I pumped on the gas pedal I would get small 'spurts' of movement (which saved me from getting hit at 45mph).

Anyhoo, I used what was left of the cars power to get it safely into a parking space. I shut it off and tried to start it up. It would start up and die after about a second. Assuming my gas gauge had broken I walked to a nearby gas station for a gallon and filled her up. This time, the car started for a bit longer but the idle was really, really rough. I mean it would surge up and down and eventually drop low to the point the whole car would shake like crazy. Since I couldn't drive it in this condition I called for a tow and got it towed over to the Audi dealership for a diagnostic.

After a few days in the shop I get call from the dealership saying that 'We have checked everything and cylinders 1 & 3 are bad. There is an internal valve issue. And your catalytic convertor needs to be changed which could be adding to the problem.'

The services rep then mentioned 'the engine is not worth fixing' and proceeded to quote me $6,000 for a new engine install and Catalytic convertor.

Is this normal? Do cars suddenly just lose compression and valves get damaged to the point of no return? Am I getting bamboozled by the dealership? Did the techs actually open my engine up and see bent valves?

I was also told the timing and belt are fine. Water pump was changed by previous owner four months ago. I recently did an oil change and flushed the coolant (with the right kind) and changed all control arms myself and got an alignment. I have since put on about 100 miles. I have put about 300 miles on it total since buying it in December and am not sure what to do since $6k for an engine is rediculous..

[LINDW4LL]

I'd like to know what led them to the conclusion that cylinders 1 and 3 "are bad". My BS alert is going off, although it's possible. "Valve issues" would not suddenly appear unless your engine jumped timing.

I know the car is at the dealer, but it would be helpful to know which fault codes are appearing. Also, a simple compression test would tell you if you indeed have issues with compression on those two cylinders they mentioned.

[Rausch]

Even if it were to have an "internal valve problem" I wouldn't see the reason for replacing the engine. I would tow it to an independent shop and get a second opinion.

[jettaowner718]

compression test will give you the answers you need in under 10mins

[jquattro]

I know this is superficial, but not actually being there when it happened, what about the coil packs. I have had 2 go out at the exact time before, and another one start only working intermittently before I got home.

If your cat is plugged, that will cause other issues, but you should have had a check engine light before everything happened.

[old guy]

You really need to press the dealer for some more specific information. A split open boost hose would present the same symptons. Easy to check. simply unplug the MAF sensor and see it it runs better.

[A4SoftWalker]

Sounds like when my jet suction pump went out. Good thing I had just ordered one and knew the symptoms of it failing. It happened on Christmas eve 2008 or 2009. I would've been stuck without a car during the Christmas season. This might be your issue. I posted a photo of the issue when I had it back then. Maybe someone can find a link to a jet suction pump thread before I can. There are a few on here.

[momspaghetti]

I forgot to mention, the dealer did say they performed a compression test. What would cause a vehicle to jump timing?

[momspaghetti]

Hi Guys,

Wondering if you can help me out here. So, last week I had a 'Final Destination' moment driving to Subway and was nearly T-boned when my Audi suddenly lost power. To me it felt like the car was out of gas. The more I pumped on the gas pedal I would get small 'spurts' of movement (which saved me from getting hit at 45mph).

Anyhoo, I used what was left of the cars power to get it safely into a parking space. I shut it off and tried to start it up. It would start up and die after about a second. Assuming my gas gauge had broken I walked to a nearby gas station for a gallon and filled her up. This time, the car started for a bit longer but the idle was really, really rough. I mean it would surge up and down and eventually drop low to the point the whole car would shake like crazy. Since I couldn't drive it in this condition I called for a tow and got it towed over to the Audi dealership for a diagnostic.

After a few days in the shop I get call from the dealership saying that 'We have checked everything and cylinders 1 & 3 are bad. There is an internal valve issue. And your catalytic convertor needs to be changed which could be adding to the problem.'

The services rep then mentioned 'the engine is not worth fixing' and proceeded to quote me $6,000 for a new engine install and Catalytic convertor.

Is this normal? Do cars suddenly just lose compression and valves get damaged to the point of no return? Am I getting bamboozled by the dealership? Did the techs actually open my engine up and see bent valves?

I was also told the timing and belt are fine. Water pump was changed by previous owner four months ago. I recently did an oil change and flushed the coolant (with the right kind) and changed all control arms myself and got an alignment. I have since put on about 100 miles. I have put about 300 miles on it total since buying it in December and am not sure what to do since $6k for an engine is rediculous..

Sounds like when my jet suction pump went out. Good thing I had just ordered one and knew the symptoms of it failing. It happened on Christmas eve 2008 or 2009. I would've been stuck without a car during the Christmas season. This might be your issue. I posted a photo of the issue when I had it back then. Maybe someone can find a link to a jet suction pump thread before I can. There are a few on here.

Thanks, I'll check that out soon as I get it home

[momspaghetti]

You really need to press the dealer for some more specific information. A split open boost hose would present the same symptons. Easy to check. simply unplug the MAF sensor and see it it runs better.

You're right. the rep was very vague in describing what was wrong. I will be in there monday to pay for the diagnostic and hopefully will be able to talk to a tech.

[momspaghetti]

I know this is superficial, but not actually being there when it happened, what about the coil packs. I have had 2 go out at the exact time before, and another one start only working intermittently before I got home.

If your cat is plugged, that will cause other issues, but you should have had a check engine light before everything happened.

hmm yeh I will ask them about coil packs. It did actually have a check engine light related to cat. I kind of neglected it for a bit. I wonder if a clogged up cat would present these symptoms?

[momspaghetti]

I'd like to know what led them to the conclusion that cylinders 1 and 3 "are bad". My BS alert is going off, although it's possible. "Valve issues" would not suddenly appear unless your engine jumped timing.

I know the car is at the dealer, but it would be helpful to know which fault codes are appearing. Also, a simple compression test would tell you if you indeed have issues with compression on those two cylinders they mentioned.

Im going to be checking back with fault codes. Not really strapped with cash right now so looks like i'm going to either try and solve this one myself or wait and save up a bit. What would cause a car to jump timing?

[Gin+]

What would cause a car to jump timing?

Anyone's guess really (improper tensioner nut torque etc..) but you really need more details from the dealer to make any sort of logical reasoning.

[LT1FirebirdSLP]

Yea, more details. Of course they want you to think you need a new engine. Money in their pocket. Ask many questions, ask for proof, if they don't answer to your satisfaction, go elsewhere.

[jpulll]

My guess is vacuum leak, sensor malfunction or a fuse/relay popped. If the belt was changed, properly, you shouldn't have to worry about timing issues. Only other thing that can cause you to destroy an engine on this platform (stock engine, stock boost), would be improper oil changes - leading to the oil pressure light. Running the engine dry will destroy the engine.

When you go into the dealership, ask for the list of codes, ask them what procedures they used to come about their decision that the engine is toast.

That diagnosis gives the impression that they're just trying to get you into a new car. Either way, it's money for the dealership.

Like many say, VAGCOM is your best friend in these kinds of situations.


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[BlueBoostedAudi]

" To me it felt like the car was out of gas. The more I pumped on the gas pedal I would get small 'spurts' of movement"

This happened to me the other day...
After that the car wouldn't start.
I checked if I had spark first and I didn't have any spark.
So lucky for me I had a crankshaft sensor in my basement which I was thinking was the problem and it sure was I changed it and it started right up!
However I don't think this is ur problem but it could be...
Did your vehicle sound different when turning it over after it wouldn't start? Like any weird/loud/quite noises?
The codes that came up on ur car would help alot!
I don't think u would need a new engine. Not at all!
Even if it was valves went bad, the head would just need rebuilt. The bottom end should still be good even if it jumped timing.
Sounds like it is a bad case of stealership!!!
I would immediately take it somewhere else if I were you.
Actually I would figure out what's wrong with the car and fix it myself.
Good luck keep us updated!
P.S .... If you want a new engine I have a fully built engine I would sell to you for $6,000!!!

[walky_talky20]

So they don't fix engines anymore? lol

Would like to see code printout and compression numbers from their "diagnosis".

From your description it sounds to me like it all of a sudden was getting a bad air/fuel mixture. Perhaps the fuel pump died, or a major sensor failed (coolant temp, MAF, crank sensor, etc), or even just an intercooler hose popped off. The fact that it still ran when you pumped the pedal really makes it seem like a mixture or air metering issue. A mechanical failure is possible, but it's tough to rule things out until we have compression numbers. Needing an entire engine is almost certainly wrong, though.

[BlueBoostedAudi]

So they don't fix engines anymore? lol

Would like to see code printout and compression numbers from their "diagnosis".

From your description it sounds to me like it all of a sudden was getting a bad air/fuel mixture. Perhaps the fuel pump died, or a major sensor failed (coolant temp, MAF, crank sensor, etc), or even just an intercooler hose popped off. The fact that it still ran when you pumped the pedal really makes it seem like a mixture or air metering issue. A mechanical failure is possible, but it's tough to rule things out until we have compression numbers. Needing an entire engine is almost certainly wrong, though.

Yes I agree with you! I would almost bet that a hose popped off or a sensor went bad...
Like I said he has a bad case of STEALERSHIP!!!

[A4SoftWalker]

Here is a thread (clicky-me) on jet suction pump failure. Did you notice any braking issues? It's a little bit easier to manage with a stick shift car because you can keep the revs up to prevent the engine from dying.

Here is a picture of when the jet suction pump separated in my car way back then and where it's located in the engine bay:



Good luck finding whatever it is that went wrong. I highly doubt it's a WHOLE engine. If it isn't never go to that dealer again. Thats definately a stealer. Back when I was a kid my dad drove over 55 miles to buy his Mercedes. I couldn't figure it out then when we had a local Mercedes dealership. Now I understand it was a stealership...

[Bmase]

Even if it was the engine 6k seems a little excessive, Maybe 2500 with a used engine and labor. Ask for the codes that were pulled. Also when you tried starting it did it sound any different while cranking. Like said above sounds like a large vacuum leak.

[dak503]

i had a similar problem with the wife's a6 3.0. i had to feather the gas pedal to get it to start. and if i let off the gas it would stall. the car felt like it had no power. i scanned with my VAGCOM.and much to my disbelief it was the coolant sensor. if i remember correctly. it effects the air fuel ratio. the way the car was shaking and stalling . i thought it was something timing related. you really need to scan the car and see for yourself whats going on.

[AudiA4_20T]

It also sounds like they might not be messing with him and the car possibly did jump timing.

[DarkoNova]

I've also been told by a few guys that used to work at dealerships that if they didn't feel like working on/diagnosing a car, they'd tell the owner something big was wrong. Something that would cost a ton of money to fix, like a new engine, just so the owner would hopefully take the car somewhere else...

I'm betting either they don't want to work on it or it actually is something timing related.

[Seerlah]

They are in the business to make money, and that is why I don't trust most shops. Guy tried to take advantage of my mother saying she needed a new steering rack for my Maxima. She was just bringing it in for a muffler to be replaced under warranty, doing me a favor. She called me up told me that they said there was a problem that needed $1,300 to fix. Drove my Audi there in anger, knowing they tried to pull a fast one on my mother. Inspected, and boot clamp on the inside tie rod was simply broke. Was actually the wrong shop that had the muffler replaced, took car from that place, went to correct shop and they put on a new zip tie for me free of charge. Standard residual fluid...which is one reason the boot is there to begin with. Crooks!

With your situation, bent valves does not equal new engine, no matter how you look at it (ie replace bent valves or simply swap on a replacement cylinder head. this is of course, assuming what they said was the truth). Get your car towed home and we will walk you through diagnosing the car yourself. Pay whatever you need to from the dealership, have car towed home, fix car with the assistance of Audizine members, save yourself and bank account from getting raped, then after the car gets fixed contact Audi of America and explain how the dealership tried to take advantage of you. I say this in hopes that you will be reimbursed by them, due to lack of moral ethics from the dealership you put your trust and faith in.

Once car is back at your residence, go to Advanced Auto or Auto Zone and rent the compression tester...free of charge. You put down a deposit for the tool, and you get it back when you return the tool. Deposit will be price of the tool. Get your compression numbers to confirm bent valves or not, as mentioned above. But I'm leaning towards bullsh*t on that diagnosis and the dealership needs the extra money for overhead. This is assuming though. They could have diagnosed it correct...but that still does not equate to $6,000 new engine to fix the issue.

[dak503]

if they are just going off a scan they could misdiagnose this. i had misfires on 2 cylinders so i changed the spark plugs. the car had 100,000 miles on the original plugs. so i figured that was my problem. i didn't pay any mind to the coolant sensor fault because the gauge was working correctly. changing the did nothing and soon after i could even get the car to start anymore. so i started to search the net and found out the coolant sensor was the problem. i swapped it out and the car started right up.

[deyrag]

you could also post in the regional forum and see if there is anyone local that would be willing to take a look at it.

[SleeperAvant]

I forgot to mention, the dealer did say they performed a compression test. What would cause a vehicle to jump timing?

Get the dealer to give you the compression numbers for each cylinder.

Like everyone else said, it's good to get a second opinion, if you have AAA or tow coverage, I would definitely do this.

[Jeremyboukaia]

A clogged cat would def show you the same signs. Stay away from the dealer. You could do a compression test your self with a simple tester from autozone. Vary easy to do. Also if you jumped timing you could have bent valves. Just buy a used/ rebuilt oem head and gaskets and replace the head and timing belt. I had missfires only on one cyclinder so I bought a reman head. Problem solved. the head cost 500$ plus 100$ for the gasket kit. I already had arp head bolts so I was good there. It took all day sat and half day Sunday I was driving Sunday night. Problem fixed


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[tegraphile]

A clogged cat would def show you the same signs. Stay away from the dealer. You could do a compression test your self with a simple tester from autozone. Vary easy to do. Also if you jumped timing you could have bent valves. Just buy a used/ rebuilt oem head and gaskets and replace the head and timing belt. I had missfires only on one cyclinder so I bought a reman head. Problem solved. the head cost 500$ plus 100$ for the gasket kit. I already had arp head bolts so I was good there. It took all day sat and half day Sunday I was driving Sunday night. Problem fixed


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Looks good. Well done.

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[momspaghetti]

My guess is vacuum leak, sensor malfunction or a fuse/relay popped. If the belt was changed, properly, you shouldn't have to worry about timing issues. Only other thing that can cause you to destroy an engine on this platform (stock engine, stock boost), would be improper oil changes - leading to the oil pressure light. Running the engine dry will destroy the engine.

When you go into the dealership, ask for the list of codes, ask them what procedures they used to come about their decision that the engine is toast.

That diagnosis gives the impression that they're just trying to get you into a new car. Either way, it's money for the dealership.

Like many say, VAGCOM is your best friend in these kinds of situations.


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Thanks, I just looked up what VAGCOM is, going to be buying here in a min

[momspaghetti]

if they are just going off a scan they could misdiagnose this. i had misfires on 2 cylinders so i changed the spark plugs. the car had 100,000 miles on the original plugs. so i figured that was my problem. i didn't pay any mind to the coolant sensor fault because the gauge was working correctly. changing the did nothing and soon after i could even get the car to start anymore. so i started to search the net and found out the coolant sensor was the problem. i swapped it out and the car started right up.

Im hoping that its just a coolant sensor. they're so cheap!! Going to order one online and see if swapping them out works.

[momspaghetti]

They are in the business to make money, and that is why I don't trust most shops. Guy tried to take advantage of my mother saying she needed a new steering rack for my Maxima. She was just bringing it in for a muffler to be replaced under warranty, doing me a favor. She called me up told me that they said there was a problem that needed $1,300 to fix. Drove my Audi there in anger, knowing they tried to pull a fast one on my mother. Inspected, and boot clamp on the inside tie rod was simply broke. Was actually the wrong shop that had the muffler replaced, took car from that place, went to correct shop and they put on a new zip tie for me free of charge. Standard residual fluid...which is one reason the boot is there to begin with. Crooks!

With your situation, bent valves does not equal new engine, no matter how you look at it (ie replace bent valves or simply swap on a replacement cylinder head. this is of course, assuming what they said was the truth). Get your car towed home and we will walk you through diagnosing the car yourself. Pay whatever you need to from the dealership, have car towed home, fix car with the assistance of Audizine members, save yourself and bank account from getting raped, then after the car gets fixed contact Audi of America and explain how the dealership tried to take advantage of you. I say this in hopes that you will be reimbursed by them, due to lack of moral ethics from the dealership you put your trust and faith in.

Once car is back at your residence, go to Advanced Auto or Auto Zone and rent the compression tester...free of charge. You put down a deposit for the tool, and you get it back when you return the tool. Deposit will be price of the tool. Get your compression numbers to confirm bent valves or not, as mentioned above. But I'm leaning towards bullsh*t on that diagnosis and the dealership needs the extra money for overhead. This is assuming though. They could have diagnosed it correct...but that still does not equate to $6,000 new engine to fix the issue.

Thanks for all the input and damn, some shops are just flat out unprofessional. I'm hoping my issue is something small like a MAF sensor or coolant sensor. I used AAA and got it towed home. Today I removed the catalytic convertor to see if it ran better without (assuming maybe bad cat was causing issue.) and still...idles and shakes like crazy. So cat is not issue. Ordering new coolant sensor tonight to see if that works. If not, ordering MAF sensor. Another member mentioned investing in VAGCOM. I'll be looking into that as well. Really really hoping the dealer was lying and its not bent valves. If thats the case, then I might just sell it on craigslist. Im pretty good with suspension components and what not but valve work seems daunting.

Heres the quote dealer sent me home with:

[IMG][/IMG]

[AudiA4_20T]

Thanks for all the input and damn, some shops are just flat out unprofessional. I'm hoping my issue is something small like a MAF sensor or coolant sensor. I used AAA and got it towed home. Today I removed the catalytic convertor to see if it ran better without (assuming maybe bad cat was causing issue.) and still...idles and shakes like crazy. So cat is not issue. Ordering new coolant sensor tonight to see if that works. If not, ordering MAF sensor. Another member mentioned investing in VAGCOM. I'll be looking into that as well. Really really hoping the dealer was lying and its not bent valves. If thats the case, then I might just sell it on craigslist. Im pretty good with suspension components and what not but valve work seems daunting.

instead of wasting your time buying random parts and denying the fact that your engine could be screwed, go to AutoZone and pick up a $25 compression tester kit. In ~15 minutes you'll be able to rule out one of the biggest possible issues.

[momspaghetti]

Get the dealer to give you the compression numbers for each cylinder.

Like everyone else said, it's good to get a second opinion, if you have AAA or tow coverage, I would definitely do this.

'1 and 3 leak down at 35 and 50 percent and leaking into crankcase'. Idk what that means, guess I should have probed the dealer for more data.

[momspaghetti]

instead of wasting your time buying random parts and denying the fact that your engine could be screwed, go to AutoZone and pick up a $25 compression tester kit. In ~15 minutes you'll be able to rule out one of the biggest possible issues.

So will data from compression readings 100% guarantee my engine is damaged? Another member mentioned that his readings were off and a coolant sensor fixed his issue.

[AudiA4_20T]

So will data from compression readings 100% guarantee my engine is damaged? Another member mentioned that his readings were off and a coolant sensor fixed his issue.

Yes. absolutely nothing except your engine being damaged will cause compression readings to be off

[Rausch]

'1 and 3 leak down at 35 and 50 percent and leaking into crankcase'. Idk what that means, guess I should have probed the dealer for more data.

Means cylinders number 1 and 3 had 35 and 50 percent leakage when doing a cylinder leak down test. Saying that it went to crankcase would indicate your piston rings are not sealing. I don't know why they would say bent valve and not worn rings. Do what everyone else says and check your compression first before replacing any other parts. Compression specs are 130-200 psi.

[SleeperAvant]

Means cylinders number 1 and 3 had 35 and 50 percent leakage when doing a cylinder leak down test. Saying that it went to crankcase would indicate your piston rings are not sealing. I don't know why they would say bent valve and not worn rings. Do what everyone else says and check your compression first before replacing any other parts. Compression specs are 130-200 psi.

Bingo.

I recently did a compression test on my engine, with 260,000kms (and relatively healthy) and they all came back within spec:

Cyl 1 - 170 psi
Cyl 2 - 170 psi
Cyl 3 - 165 psi
Cyl 4 - 160 psi

So OP, if your engine doesn't report numbers similar or within the 130-200 psi range, the answer is your engine is the problem.

[Charles.waite]

Yea, definitely don't start playing parts darts with this. Check compression first, a tester is cheap and easy to use, you just pop the spark plug out, screw in the tester, and crank the engine 4-5 times. Rinse, repeat for each cylinder. If any cylinder is low then you've got some internal damage. if none are low then you have issues outside of the engine, like a bad injector, bad spark plug, bad coil pack, etc...

[momspaghetti]

Bingo.

I recently did a compression test on my engine, with 260,000kms (and relatively healthy) and they all came back within spec:

Cyl 1 - 170 psi
Cyl 2 - 170 psi
Cyl 3 - 165 psi
Cyl 4 - 160 psi

So OP, if your engine doesn't report numbers similar or within the 130-200 psi range, the answer is your engine is the problem.

Hey thanks for the PSI numbers. Going to be testing compression here in an hour or so.

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