Please Help! Has Spark, Has Fuel, Still NO Start!

[Peezen]

Hi there everyone. This is my first post after doing a lot of research and trying everything I can to get this car started.

I have a 2003 Audi A4 B6 1.8T. I bought it as a project from a lady who drove until it died. I replaced the head because it had valves that had bashed a few holes in the underside of it after the water pump apparently failed and seized. The head is the same stamped head as the destroyed one, and the valves are good as far as I can tell.

It has a new timing belt and all of the associated gaskets, and the timing seems to be correct. Once getting everything back together I cannot get the car to start. It turns over, the starter sounds nice and strong, it just can't seem to catch and start. There are no codes for the engine when scanned on VCDS.

Here are some details of my process:

1. There are no engine codes at all but I will post a full VCDS scan below
2. I have a new battery installed
3. The ECU box had a couple of inches of water in it so I replaced all three submerged relays, including 219, 373, 395, harness seems ok.
4. I replaced the coolant temperature sensor
5. I swapped the cam position sensor with a few spares = no change
6. I tested the fuse #28 and have voltage when cranking the engine.
7. I removed the spark plugs and coils and cranked the engine and saw spark from each plug
8. the cylinders smelled of fuel, and the plugs were wet when removed, but I tested the fuel pump and it seems to work.
9. Fuel pump was noisy during output tests in VCDS so I replaced the Fuel filter which quieted things down = no change in regards to engine starting
10. fuel escapes from fuel rail when little access valve is depressed
11. All turbo hoses seem to be attached, no visible vacuum leaks
12. New air filter
13. No start with MAF plugged in or not
14. I ran a cold compression test (since I can't start the engine) and I got the following results: 1 - 70ps1, 2 - 40psi, 3 - 45psi, 4 - 70psi. Numbers seem super low and with large differences. Could the bottom end be the problem in the end?

I have lots of experience DIY'ing, and am active on the BMW 850i forum over at bimmerforums, but this situation has me stumped. I bought the car as a fun rebuild project but after all of the work I have put in I am close to just selling the darn thing as a non-working car :(

**EDIT** One thing I noticed was that the Engine label section of the engine scan is marked fail, could this be a problem?

Here is the VCDS scan:

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Saturday, 25 February 2017, 13:36:23:35449


Chassis Type: 8E - Audi A4 B6
Scan: 01,02,03,08,09,0F,11,15,16,17,18,36,37,45,46,55,56 ,57,65,67,69,75,76,77

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Controller: 8E0 909 518 AF
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0003
Coding: 0016751
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 749BD5AA57A3
No fault code found.
Readiness: 0110 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.LBL
Controller: 8E0 927 156 P
Component: AG5 01V 1.8l5VT USA 0910
Coding: 0001002
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 3B093E963A7D
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 8E0-614-517.LBL
Controller: 8E0 614 517 H
Component: ABS/ESP allrad 2328
Coding: 04277
Shop #: WSC 06435
VCID: 2D2D00CEF409
1 Fault Found:
01826 - Sensor for Steering Angle (G85); Supply Voltage Terminal 30
35-00 - -

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 8E0-820-043.LBL
Controller: 8E0 820 043 L
Component: A4 Klimaautomat 1116
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 2A270BD2C5E7
3 Faults Found:
00735 - Potentiometer in Positioning Motor for Air recirculation Flap (G143)
30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent
01206 - Signal for Duration of Ignition Off Time
27-00 - Implausible Signal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 8E0-907-279-8E2.LBL
Controller: 8E0 907 279 E
Component: int. Lastmodul KAN 0305
Coding: 00014
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 341B15AA1723
2 Faults Found:
01504 - Bulb for License-Plate Light (X)
57-00 - Electric Circuit Failure
01800 - Light Switch (E1)
27-00 - Implausible Signal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 8E0-959-655-84.LBL
Controller: 8E0 959 655 C
Component: Airbag 8.4EP 2000
Coding: 0010607
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 370122A60655
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 8E0-953-549.LBL
Controller: 8E0 953 549 N
Component: Lenks·ulenmodul 0308
Coding: 00041
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 3E0F3782296F
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 8E0-920-9xx-8E2.LBL
Controller: 8E0 920 900 L
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. RB4 D36
Coding: 03300
Shop #: WSC 00070
VCID: 2D2D00CEF409
WAULC68E53A254533 AUZ6Z0B0382059
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 8E0-959-433-MAX.LBL
Controller: 8E0 959 433 BB
Component: Komfortger·t T7B 1311
Coding: 11788
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 7297D3B22DB7
4 Faults Found:
00955 - Key 1
35-00 - -
01705 - Selection Switch for Mirror-Adjust (E48)
27-00 - Implausible Signal
01801 - Door Warning Lamp; Drivers Side (W30)
57-00 - Electric Circuit Failure
01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386)
80-00 - Single-Wire Operation

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 55: Xenon Range Labels: 4Z7-907-357.LBL
Controller: 4Z7 907 357
Component: dynamische LWR D09
Coding: 00060
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 047B856A0703
3 Faults Found:
01535 - Control Circuit for Right Headlight Range Adjusting Motor (V49)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01534 - Control Circuit for Left Headlight Range Adjusting Motor (V48)
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 8E0-035-1xx-56.LBL
Controller: 8E0 035 195 Q
Component: symphony II NP2 0052
Coding: 01001
Shop #: WSC 91417
VCID: 351D28AE1C59
2 Faults Found:
00878 - Connection to Speaker Front Left
36-00 - Open Circuit
00879 - Connection to Speaker Front Right
36-00 - Open Circuit

End --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Pswish]

A few questions:

1. Did the PO drive it until the timing belt broke?
2. Do you have those voltage errors even after resetting the ECU?
3. Do you have any other symptoms when turning the key before starting?

[Peezen]

A few questions:

1. Did the PO drive it until the timing belt broke?
2. Do you have those voltage errors even after resetting the ECU?
3. Do you have any other symptoms when turning the key before starting?

Hi there,

1. Given the bent valves and head damage on the original head I would suspect that she indeed broke the the timing belt.
2. I have unplugged and removed the ECU several times, and unplugged the battery even more times, though I'm not sure if that has reset the ECU. The VCDS reading posted was done today as the last thing I did to the car before giving up so it is current.
3. No other symptoms when starting up. It sounds like it is cranking strongly and should catch, but just never coughs to life.

I should add that I first replaced the head with another before the current one. That one was a bit damaged but I didn't realize. When I first tried to start the car it cranked over tried to catch, seemed like it did, then snapped one of the cam shafts in half! It turns out that the other camshaft was seized when the caps were tightened down. Re redid the head job with all new parts and a head that turned well on the work bench and here I am with my persistent no start.

Thanks for taking the time to help :)

[old guy]

Since you have low compression across the board I suspect that your cam timing is off. How confident are you with your timing marks between the crank and exhaust cam as well as between the exhaust and intake cam?

[Peezen]

Since you have low compression across the board I suspect that your cam timing is off. How confident are you with your timing marks between the crank and exhaust cam as well as between the exhaust and intake cam?

At this point I'd be willing to take the cover off and check again for sure. Would this cause a no start though, and with no CPS codes?

[old guy]

Your low compression is strictly a mechanical function. You don't need fuel or spark to get compression. Since you don't have good compression you need to figure out why. Bent valves would be an obvious cause. But so can having the cam timing off. You need to take a really close look at all of your timing marks. Also confirm TDC with an indicator instead of just using the timing marks and make sure they both align properly.

[Pswish]

OG will be able to guide you through most of this as I am more skilled at the electrical side of things. I would focus on the symptoms of a broken timing belt. I have a 22 step Staring Problem FAQ/Guide I have been working on and you are on step 22: Other serious engine problems (seized, no compression, missing vital parts, timing is off).

[Peezen]

Your low compression is strictly a mechanical function. You don't need fuel or spark to get compression. Since you don't have good compression you need to figure out why. Bent valves would be an obvious cause. But so can having the cam timing off. You need to take a really close look at all of your timing marks. Also confirm TDC with an indicator instead of just using the timing marks and make sure they both align properly.

Ok, i'm taking it apart again to check the timing and wiliest TDC first and then check cam timing. What do you mean use an indicator?

I will use the Ross-Tech picture for the cam chain timing marks as a reference

[old guy]

Something as simple as a wooden dowel rod will work. Remove the spark plug from the #1cylinder and insert the rod. Closely observe the movement of the rod as your cam and crank marks approach the TDC position. It should correspond with the maximum upward travel of the rod.

[Peezen]

Something as simple as a wooden dowel rod will work. Remove the spark plug from the #1cylinder and insert the rod. Closely observe the movement of the rod as your cam and crank marks approach the TDC position. It should correspond with the maximum upward travel of the rod.

Ok awesome! I'll get this all set up tomorrow and report back here. Thank you so much for all of your help so far :)

[rocket1420]

To gaurantee fuel delivery, pull the fuel rail out and witness fuel coming out of the injectors while the car is cranked.

Did you verify that you put the head back together correctly? Specifically, can you see the tops of the valves with the valve cover off? Or do you have the metal cylinders properly in place?

[Peezen]

To gaurantee fuel delivery, pull the fuel rail out and witness fuel coming out of the injectors while the car is cranked.

Did you verify that you put the head back together correctly? Specifically, can you see the tops of the valves with the valve cover off? Or do you have the metal cylinders properly in place?

I'll test the injectors tomorrow as well. As for the head being on correctly I'm not sure what you mean as it only goes on one way as far as I can tell when the head bolts line up and the sprocket lines up with the rest of the timing components, etc...

As for the tops of the valves, they are hidden below the lobes of the cam shafts. Can you maybe explain to me what you mean in a simpler way?

Thanks for the continued support, I really want to get this car running!

[Peezen]

Also, This is a snippet from the above VCDS scan. Does anyone know what the "Redir Fail" means here for the engine label? Is this a problem?

Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Controller: 8E0 909 518 AF
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0003
Coding: 0016751
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 749BD5AA57A3
No fault code found.
Readiness: 0110 1101

Thanks!

[rocket1420]

I'll test the injectors tomorrow as well. As for the head being on correctly I'm not sure what you mean as it only goes on one way as far as I can tell when the head bolts line up and the sprocket lines up with the rest of the timing components, etc...

As for the tops of the valves, they are hidden below the lobes of the cam shafts. Can you maybe explain to me what you mean in a simpler way?

Thanks for the continued support, I really want to get this car running!

The head is made of a lot of parts. Cam's, valve cover, seals, timing chain, tensioner, etc. This is an example of a head put together incorrectly. It is missing pieces.

[rocket1420]

Also, This is a snippet from the above VCDS scan. Does anyone know what the "Redir Fail" means here for the engine label? Is this a problem?

Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Controller: 8E0 909 518 AF
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0003
Coding: 0016751
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 749BD5AA57A3
No fault code found.
Readiness: 0110 1101

Thanks!

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ge=1&_k=yrgoko

[old guy]

To guarantee fuel delivery, pull the fuel rail out and witness fuel coming out of the injectors while the car is cranked.

Here's a visual to go with this. This will allow you to witness the spray pattern as well as measure the amount to see if all are spraying evenly.

[Captain_Panic]

I would really lean toward the timing having moved when you put the belt on. The first time I did it when replacing the water pump and tensioner, everything was great. When I went to line up all up after the head gasket, it took me four or five tries. Make sure you rotate it by hand several times just to be certain.

[Peezen]

I would really lean toward the timing having moved when you put the belt on. The first time I did it when replacing the water pump and tensioner, everything was great. When I went to line up all up after the head gasket, it took me four or five tries. Make sure you rotate it by hand several times just to be certain.

Ok so after todays tests I have the following additional information:

1 - Yes, the head is properly assembled with all parts present and accounted for.
2 - I tested the fuel injectors with little jars and all injectors deliver fuel (see picture)
3 - I checked the timing again and it all looks bang on. I provided a picture as well as the Ross-Tech image I used for reference.
4 - I inserted a long extension in the spark plug tube and it appears as though cylinder 1 is at it's highest when the crank is set to TDC as per the timing marks

Is there perhaps a better way to test spark? Any other ideas as to why it won't start or the compression numbers are so low?

[Pswish]

Just some things to consider, I'm not sure it is 100% applicable but this info seems right:

"A low compression reading in one cylinder normally indicates an exhaust valve issue. Low compression readings in adjacent cylinders are typically a sign of a blown head gasket. If every cylinder returns low compression levels, it could be an indication of worn-out rings and cylinders. If this is the case, you may need to have the entire engine rebuilt." www.reference.com

"An interference type engine means that the valve's stroke and piston's stroke take up the same space in the cylinder, so the timing belt essentially keeps them from smashing into each other, since they do it at different times. If the timing belt snaps, they run into each other, causing bent valves (most common), cylinder head or camshaft damage, and possibly piston and cylinder wall damage." thegarage.com

[old guy]

Cam timing looks good. How did you previously confirm spark? Have you checked all four of your engine management fuses? 29, 32, 34 and 43.

[Rausch]

Put some oil into each cylinder and do another compression test and see if your compression comes up. Rule of thumb is 90-100 psi compression to start an engine, but you should have more than that. I would quit focusing on fuel and spark till you figure out the low compression.

[old guy]

Put some oil into each cylinder and do another compression test and see if your compression comes up. Rule of thumb is 90-100 psi compression to start an engine, but you should have more than that. I would quit focusing on fuel and spark till you figure out the low compression.

Good point. Putting the cart before the horse.

Do as Rausch suggested and put a few drops of oil in each cylinder. Also make sure that the throttle body is opened when cranking. Remove the throttle intake hose and visually confirm.

[Peezen]

Good point. Putting the cart before the horse.

Do as Rausch suggested and put a few drops of oil in each cylinder. Also make sure that the throttle body is opened when cranking. Remove the throttle intake hose and visually confirm.

Ok great, I'll add some oil, and take the hose of the TB and do another compression test and report back.

I tested the spark by pulling the coils and plugs and tried starting the car while the laid out in the open. All sparked.

[old guy]

Ok great, I'll add some oil, and take the hose of the TB and do another compression test and report back.

I tested the spark by pulling the coils and plugs and tried starting the car while the laid out in the open. All sparked.

How confident are you with your compression gauge accuracy? Have you used it before and gotten acceptable readings?

[Peezen]

How confident are you with your compression gauge accuracy? Have you used it before and gotten acceptable readings?

At this point I'm not confident about any of it, but I've used it once before and got readings around the 200psi mark on an Audi V6 a few months ago.

The process is as follows?

1 - remove all coil packs and spark plugs
2 - remove fuel pump fuse and injector fuse
3 - screw in compression tester
4 - put the accelerator to the ground and crank the engine for 5 revolutions
5 - read tester
6 - repeat for the rest of the cylinders

[Rausch]

That's correct.

[rocket1420]

Do a leak down test. Figure out where the air is escaping. Intake, exhaust, crankcase, cylinder to cylinder, probably another possibility or two I can't think of.

[3g_bishi]

Ether the head wasn't machine correctly, if you even got it machines. Or head gasket was over torqued. When all 4 are low. It's ether a head, timing or valves. Nothing else. That right there is your problem. Check timing. Maybe your 180 out. If timing is good take the head off.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[Peezen]

So I did a compression test again and then again with oil in each cylinder. Here are the results:

Cyl - 1: 80psi/95psi with oil
Cyl - 2: 50psi/70psi with oil
Cyl - 3: 50psi/95psi with oil
Cyl - 4: 80psi/95psi with oil

I installed the head gasket following the instructions from the Haynes manual I have at home, I thought I was being careful, and I have the proper tools. As far as the head goes, I did not have it machined when I replaced it.

I'm pretty certain that the timing is correct. All timing marks line up on the crankshaft pulley along with the cam shafts, and I have the correct configuration of the cam chain.

So the head is the problem?

[coffeysm]

I'd do a leak down test like someone previously stated. If you take the schrader valve out of your compression tester and put each cylinder at TDC for the compression stroke and blow some compressed air through the hose you'll be able to hear where it's coming from. It will save you from having to buy a new tool

[Rausch]

So your compression readings did improve. Try putting some more oil and doing one more compression test. If it doesn't get any better than you will have to do a cylinder leak down test.

[old guy]

And make sure that your throttle plate is open when performing the compression test.

[Rausch]

Compression specification is 130-203 psi and no lower than 108psi.

[crazyquik22023]

Do a leak down test. Figure out where the air is escaping. Intake, exhaust, crankcase, cylinder to cylinder, probably another possibility or two I can't think of.

That's right, also could be escaping into the radiator/coolant passages.

[Peezen]

I'd do a leak down test like someone previously stated. If you take the schrader valve out of your compression tester and put each cylinder at TDC for the compression stroke and blow some compressed air through the hose you'll be able to hear where it's coming from. It will save you from having to buy a new tool

Today I will check that the throttle plate is opening and do a compression test again on each cylinder, and then again with more oil, being careful to check that the plate is open each time and report back.

In terms of making a home leak down tester, My compression tester has one hose so I don't know how I would go about adding compressed air. Any direction on doing a leak down test at home would be appreciated.

Thanks so much to everyone so far in helping me get my car back on the road!

[Peezen]

Ok, so with a little more oil in each cylinder the values grew to:

1-115psi
2-80psi
3-110psi
4-100psi

I made sure that the TB flap was open for each, though it doesn't open all the way flat when powered as it can when I use my fingers when the car is off. Perhaps that is normal as I have adapted the TB a few times now in VCDS.

[Rausch]

How much oil are you adding? I would add a little more oil and do one more compression test. Then put it back together and see if it starts.

[Peezen]

How much oil are you adding? I would add a little more oil and do one more compression test. Then put it back together and see if it starts.

I've added about a table spoon each time. So there is about two table spoons in each cylinder now. Add more?

[Rausch]

Add two more table spoons.

[rocket1420]

Today I will check that the throttle plate is opening and do a compression test again on each cylinder, and then again with more oil, being careful to check that the plate is open each time and report back.

In terms of making a home leak down tester, My compression tester has one hose so I don't know how I would go about adding compressed air. Any direction on doing a leak down test at home would be appreciated.

Thanks so much to everyone so far in helping me get my car back on the road!

Buy one at Harbor Freight or eBay. I suspect the head is warped. Make sure though before you pull the head. You should also get a machinist's straight edge (about $20 on Amazon) and feeler gauges if you don't have them to measure deflection of the head and block when you pull the head again.