Stage 3 Advice

[Bob Marley]

How necessary is upgrading MAP sensor to 3 Bar + 4 Bar FPR?

I already have a Bosch 040 FP about to be installed...
Some have told me that the bigger the better when it comes to fuel flow capacity...some say it's not as crucial and the stock 2.7t MAP & FPR can support a stage 3 tune with no problem... is it worth the investment to upgrade MAP & FPR? and would a typical stage 3 tune really take advantage of the larger FPR & MAP? Or is that more Stage 3+?



Here's a list of what I have going as of now before I drop the motor in the car...anything I might be missing or suggestions, please let me know

Just for reference:
♢2.7t APB 2001
♢85mm Hitachi MAF
♢BOSCH 040 Fuel Pump
♢BOSCH 550cc EV14 injectors
♢RS4 Intercoolers
♢K04-26 Turbos
♢Forge Billet Splitter DV'S
♢Custom Stage 3 Tune from Four Rings Industries with all the fixin's
♢3"-2.5" Catless Downpipes
♢2.5" X pipe (This is a B6 Swap Project)
♢Dual 2.5" MagnaFlow Resonators
♢Dual MagnaFlow 14829's

So far...Everything Else is STOCK!
Thanks guys

[Yuppie]

Get Downpipes and exhaust

[blitz2190]

How necessary is upgrading MAP sensor to 3 Bar + 4 Bar FPR?

I already have a Bosch 040 FP about to be installed...
Some have told me that the bigger the better when it comes to fuel flow capacity...some say it's not as crucial and the stock 2.7t MAP & FPR can support a stage 3 tune with no problem... is it worth the investment to upgrade MAP & FPR? and would a typical stage 3 tune really take advantage of the larger FPR & MAP? Or is that more Stage 3+?



Here's a list of what I have going as of now before I drop the motor in the car...anything I might be missing or suggestions, please let me know

Just for reference:
♢2.7t APB 2001
♢85mm Hitachi MAF
♢BOSCH 040 Fuel Pump
♢BOSCH 550cc EV14 injectors
♢RS4 Intercoolers
♢K04-26 Turbos
♢Forge Billet Splitter DV'S
♢Custom Stage 3 Tune from Four Rings Industries with all the fixin's

So far...Everything Else is STOCK!
Thanks guys

what does the tune call for, you shouldn't need an upgraded map sensor and won't be able to use one unless that tune calls for it and the 2.7t comes stock with a 4 bar fpr

the best thing you can do supporting wise is good set of downpipes with HFC's and a good flowing exhaust, those rs4 intercoolers are expensive and are slightly better(fixed because of sticklers for english) than stock besides not blowing apart.

[brandon91891]

what does the tune call for, you shouldn't need an upgraded map sensor and won't be able to use one unless that tune calls for it and the 2.7t comes stock with a 4 bar fpr

the best thing you can do supporting wise is good set of downpipes with HFC's and a good flowing exhaust, those rs4 intercoolers are expensive and not any better than stock besides not blowing apart.

Rs4 intercoolers are most definitely better than stock and there are test done to prove it. You can pick up rs4 coolers for 400 and then you have 300 left over the srm product which I decided to buy a meth kit after much debate. My car is cooler and faster than if I went with just 700 dollar intercoolers. But yes if you don't have an upgraded exhaust yet and downpipes is definitely do that.


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[blitz2190]

Rs4 intercoolers are most definitely better than stock and there are test done to prove it. You can pick up rs4 coolers for 400 and then you have 300 left over the srm product which I decided to buy a meth kit after much debate. My car is cooler and faster than if I went with just 700 dollar intercoolers. But yes if you don't have an upgraded exhaust yet and downpipes is definitely do that.


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the test on here show minimal gains and terrible heatsoak, do you have the proof you car is cooler and faster or is this just your opinion, more likely all the gains you are seeing are from the water/meth. They aren't that much bigger, about the only benift is they are welded aluminium tanks instead of two piece plastic, even the rs6 ones I have are not that much better, better than the rs4's and probably about half as good at cooling than the srm's once heatsoaked(logged temps on both the rs6 and a friends srm's) I'll have to do it again once mine running again and fix his 5k limiter and post it up.

[brandon91891]

the test on here show minimal gains and terrible heatsoak, do you have the proof you car is cooler and faster or is this just your opinion, more likely all the gains you are seeing are from the water/meth. They aren't that much bigger, about the only benift is they are welded aluminium tanks instead of two piece plastic, even the rs6 ones I have are not that much better, better than the rs4's and probably about half as good at cooling than the srm's once heatsoaked(logged temps on both the rs6 and a friends srm's) I'll have to do it again once mine running again and fix his 5k limiter and post it up.

First you said no gains then you said minimal gains from stock which is it? . Secondly yes if you can look at flyboy tests you do see that they flow pretty good for there price not the best but not the worst. I'm just trying to show the op that with that extra money you have left over he can buy something more useful like a meth kit to lower iat. And be faster and cooler then if he went with just the srm intercoolers. And no I don't have data and I assume you don't have data too show zero gains do you?


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[blitz2190]

First you said no gains then you said minimal gains from stock which is it? . Secondly yes if you can look at flyboy tests you do see that they flow pretty good for there price not the best but not the worst. I'm just trying to show the op that with that extra money you have left over he can buy something more useful like a meth kit to lower iat. And be faster and cooler then if he went with just the srm intercoolers. And no I don't have data and I assume you don't have data too show zero gains do you?


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well you continue on being hostile, I'll help when I can, also try not regurgitating what you here and research yourself, flow by itself also doesn't mean better, if it can't cool the air its not very good now is it. Start with better parts and that meth kit will do even better. again the gains you are seeing are most likely 90% from the water meth. Not to crap on flyboy as he does a lot of testing, but flow means nothing if its hot air. again you have no proof that it will be faster or cooler just your opinion where i have actaully had the chance to compare them(in both k04 and k24 setups), no water meth but then again thats just masking the problem. Not gonna argue with you anymore though as you seem to have the mentality that your right and everyone else be damned. Also yeah I did for the rs6's but lost my laptop so waiting on my rebuild to do ti again. (in case you didn't know the rs6's are bigger and still have very little gains)

[FlyboyS4]

How necessary is upgrading MAP sensor to 3 Bar + 4 Bar FPR?

You don't need to upgrade either.

The MAP sensor maybe depending on how hard you intend to push the K04's and how the tuning is done.

[FlyboyS4]

those rs4 intercoolers are expensive and not any better than stock besides not blowing apart.

That is not a correct statement.

[blitz2190]

That is not a correct statement.

sorry if you read I revised to minimal, but thats all they don't make a huge increase, for a stage 3 the will suffice, but the heatsoak on them is bad. for less money the fmic setup will cool much better than them. I'm currently(until my engine went poof) running the rs6's and they heatsoak horribly, terrible iats after a few runs, and horrible on the road. I don't disagree that they flow a little better but thats not the whole equation and you know it. How well they cool is much more important otherwise why have an interCOOLER in the first place.

[Bob Marley]

Sorry guys I forgot to add my exhaust setup...its not Stock!

3"-2.5" Catless Downpipes
2.5" X pipe (This is a B6 Swap Project)
Dual 2.5" MagnaFlow Resonators
Dual MagnaFlow 14829's

I'll update original post

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[blitz2190]

Sorry guys I forgot to add my exhaust setup...its not Stock!

3"-2.5" Catless Downpipes
2.5" X pipe (This is a B6 Swap Project)
Dual 2.5" MagnaFlow Resonators
Dual MagnaFlow 14829's

I'll update original post

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Identical to mine minus the x-pipe, if you want a good cooling setup but don't want to spring for the srm's(which just fit very tightly in the b6) you can get the fmic kit. That custom tune you have can it be revised? if not what does it call for(injectors, maf, etc) some tunes will hae you drop to a 3 bar fpr though not common and some will do the map upgrade if really pushing the k04's

[Bob Marley]

Identical to mine minus the x-pipe, if you want a good cooling setup but don't want to spring for the srm's(which just fit very tightly in the b6) you can get the fmic kit.

For the record the issues with the RS4 intercoolers has been hashed back and forth tirelessly ...but I honestly got them at a good price and wether or not they are a small improvement over stock or huge improvement...they are an improvement...

I got the set for less that $300 shipped with OEM Rs4 Hoses... it was a no brainer. Some day I will upgrade to ERs or AWE...yes we all Know That They are Better than RS4s & Stock ICs especially in the dead of summer... BUT I have a lot going on $$ just to get this swap done properly & running by spring/summer.... so $700 -$1100 intercoolers weren't high on the priority list. RS4's are fine for now...however they are OEMish...& I wouldn't recommend anyone paying over $350 for a set. In the end...knowing what I know now...if I was more familiar with the platform when deciding I would have used my OEM Intercoolers (in great shape btw) and saved that $300 towards the swap...like a FSI coil conversion for example.


As for the FMIC suggestion...thanks but its out of the question as I refuse to Chop up my front bumper as it is a fairly Rare B6 Ultrasport 6 speed bumper & grill...and I love my Fog lights

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[erykv1]

it may be different on a b6, but running rs4 intercoolers require choppoing of the radiator core support / inner fender. either way you will be chopping something, lol.

[Bob Marley]

it may be different on a b6, but running rs4 intercoolers require choppoing of the radiator core support / inner fender. either way you will be chopping something, lol.

This is true...but mods & cuts will be hidden..I don't mind that...but a FMIC requires quite a bit more chopping and removal of Front fogs...I'll hold out until I can afford really good SMICs and keep my esthetics up front intact

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[blitz2190]

it may be different on a b6, but running rs4 intercoolers require choppoing of the radiator core support / inner fender. either way you will be chopping something, lol.

on the b6 you can fit up to the srm sized ones with no chopping, The rs6's fit on mine and the srm's on a friends as well as another that I helped wire and put together so your good there. though with any I would recommend making a set of shrouds, no sense in using the b5 ones unless you already have them you cheap(free) money. if you have some patience you can mock up a set with cardboard for a mold then fiberglass them for not a whole lot, takes about a day to mock them up maybe less if you good.

[Bob Marley]

on the b6 you can fit up to the srm sized ones with no chopping, The rs6's fit on mine and the srm's on a friends as well as another that I helped wire and put together so your good there. though with any I would recommend making a set of shrouds, no sense in using the b5 ones unless you already have them you cheap(free) money. if you have some patience you can mock up a set with cardboard for a mold then fiberglass them for not a whole lot, takes about a day to mock them up maybe less if you good.

I got a set of cheapies B5 shrouds. APR has a DIY on fitting the RS4 ICs & modifying Stock shrouds...when I purchase a "Real" set of ICs they will likely include bigger, better shrouds as well

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[blitz2190]

I got a set of cheapies B5 shrouds. APR has a DIY on fitting the RS4 ICs & modifying Stock shrouds...when I purchase a "Real" set of ICs they will likely include bigger, better shrouds as well

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as long as they were cheap hack them up and make them fit, I only suggested that if you haven't bought a set yet.

[FlyboyS4]

For the record the issues with the RS4 intercoolers has been hashed back and forth tirelessly ...but I honestly got them at a good price and wether or not they are a small improvement over stock or huge improvement...they are an improvement...

Here's a look I took a long time ago. I'm not too interested in trying to go at it again since so much depends on how you drive the car and what you want to believe matters.

[Bob Marley]

Here's a look I took a long time ago. I'm not too interested in trying to go at it again since so much depends on how you drive the car and what you want to believe matters.

Very thorough testing...further reinforcing the point of how practical RS4 ICs are IF you can find them cheap..they're performance is respectable at the very least.

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[blitz2190]

Very thorough testing...further reinforcing the point of how practical RS4 ICs are IF you can find them cheap..they're performance is respectable at the very least.

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that's the key, if they are very cheap then they are worth it, my point was at the typical $400 there are better options

[Bob Marley]

that's the key, if they are very cheap than they are worth it, my point was at the typical $400 there are better options

Agreed...at that point I'd stay stock & scrape up another $300 or so...but if you get anywhere south of $300. Go for it...just don't brag youre running the greatest ICs

All Facts considered...I'm happy with my RS4 choice thus far.


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[blitz2190]

Agreed...at that point I'd stay stock & scrape up another $300 or so...but if you get anywhere south of $300. Go for it...just don't brag youre running the greatest ICs

All Facts considered...I'm happy with my RS4 choice thus far.


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they will do fine but if your going to be running an agressive tune even on k04 plan on better down the road, or at least an W/M kit. I'm running the rs6's(got them for my favorite price aka free) until I swap to the stk I'm working on, then either the biggest fmic i can stuff in the b6 or srm's.

[FlyboyS4]

they will do fine but if your going to be running an agressive tune even on k04 plan on better down the road, or at least an W/M kit. I'm running the rs6's(got them for my favorite price aka free) until I swap to the stk I'm working on, then either the biggest fmic i can stuff in the b6 or srm's.

Would you quantify some of the statements you are making? When you are describing the condition of heat soak, and cooling under that condition, what are you defining as being heat soaked?
When describing that one product cools better than another, how is that temperature reading being made?
Can you post a chart showing a comparison of the products you have evaluated?

[blitz2190]

Would you quantify some of the statements you are making? When you are describing the condition of heat soak, and cooling under that condition, what are you defining as being heat soaked?
When describing that one product cools better than another, how is that temperature reading being made?
Can you post a chart showing a comparison of the products you have evaluated?

heat soak is pretty easy to get, it quickly absorbs heat making it very inefficient, and for some reason they don't dissipate the heat well like other better designed cores, and rightfully so as they are old by today standards. This is based on logging the iats on my car compared to stock, now I can't log the rs4's again(I only have the rs6's) but once the two cars are running again this summer I would be more than happy to log them compared to stocks as well, while they perform better I don't believe it's enough to justify the asking cost of what you normally see rs4 or rs6 go for, I just happen to get some in trade for work. When a fmic kit can be had for the same price and be much more efficient. a set for $250 maybe 300 if ing perfect shap maybe but not a penny more.

[FlyboyS4]

heat soak is pretty easy to get, it quickly absorbs heat making it very inefficient,

You want the IC to quickly absorb heat, that is how it is transferred out of the charge air.

and for some reason they don't dissipate the heat well like other better designed cores, and rightfully so as they are old by today standards.

What IC's did you compare? How did you measure the temperature change? What was the change?

When a fmic kit can be had for the same price and be much more efficient.

How is this efficiency being measured? What is the efficiency of a FMIC vs the RS4 SMIC's?

Having some information to work with would go a long way towards illustrating how the RS4 IC compares to alternatives. Absent knowing ambient temperature conditions, vehicle speed, mass airflow through the intake, charge air pressure, temperature going into and then out of the core, time passage, it is very difficult to make a persuasive case that one product outperforms another.

[blitz2190]

You want the IC to quickly absorb heat, that is how it is transferred out of the charge air.



What IC's did you compare? How did you measure the temperature change? What was the change?



How is this efficiency being measured? What is the efficiency of a FMIC vs the RS4 SMIC's?

Having some information to work with would go a long way towards illustrating how the RS4 IC compares to alternatives. Absent knowing ambient temperature conditions, vehicle speed, mass airflow through the intake, charge air pressure, temperature going into and then out of the core, time passage, it is very difficult to make a persuasive case that one product outperforms another.

first take a sentence as whole not just pick the part that makes it sound like it makes a point for you, while I did say they absorb it quickly in that same sentence I also said they don't dissipate the heat well making for a poor intercooler. second I planned on logging more than just the iats as that would be a useless log by itself, you seem to just want to argue. I'll log what I can when I can and share my findings, its not like I'm trying to pick a fight just advising that for the money there are better options, you seem to be picking a lot of fights on here lately. And by more efficient I mean its stays closer to ambient temps under load, do you need a lesson on how they work or are you being purposefully obtuse. Obviously to make a fair comparison all those variables will be the same or a close as possible. as far as what they were compared to, another shop was running an fmic(ebay special I believe) and averaged(from memory) around 15-20 degrees cooler on average, also compared(and I plan to log these as I have access) to my friends srm's.

[FlyboyS4]

first take a sentence as whole not just pick the part that makes it sound like it makes a point for you, while I did say they absorb it quickly in that same sentence I also said they don't dissipate the heat well making for a poor intercooler. second I planned on logging more than just the iats as that would be a useless log by itself, you seem to just want to argue. I'll log what I can when I can and share my findings, its not like I'm trying to pick a fight just advising that for the money there are better options, you seem to be picking a lot of fights on here lately. And by more efficient I mean its stays closer to ambient temps under load, do you need a lesson on how they work or are you being purposefully obtuse. Obviously to make a fair comparison all those variables will be the same or a close as possible. as far as what they were compared to, another shop was running an fmic(ebay special I believe) and averaged(from memory) around 15-20 degrees cooler on average, also compared(and I plan to log these as I have access) to my friends srm's.

Debating the performance of a product without evidence to refer to does tend to be difficult. When you can point to some results versus other products that illustrate what you are saying maybe we can move forward. If you want to call challenging an unsubstantiated claim 'picking a fight' o.k.

[vavJETTAw36]

Debating the performance of a product without evidence to refer to does tend to be difficult. When you can point to some results versus other products that illustrate what you are saying maybe we can move forward. If you want to call challenging an unsubstantiated claim 'picking a fight' o.k.

...The mans got a point. You've got 0 evidence yourself. 0 basis for argument.

[Bob Marley]

For some strange reason RS4 intercoolers (and RS6 By default) stir up allot of controversy whenever mentioned...don't know why..? When I was considering them I read thru some old threads first & the argument was the same...I started this thread regarding FPRs & MAP sensors...lol

In the end...it's all opinion & little facts with most products discussed on a forum...

Conclusion, if you need a pair of SMICs...and only have about $200 - $300...Grab a pair of RS4 or RS6 and make it work...Don't Grab CX Racing Ebay models...or ...save up a lil more & at least get SRM or better. IF you have a good set of stock ICs already...just hang on to em till you can afford the better brands...the RS4/RS6 is not enough of an "UPgrade" to justify the cost.

Based on Flyboys testing...(which still has its limits) RS4 ICs can "Flow" with the best of em...ER,AWE,SRM...etc. However good Flow is only 1 aspect of a good IC.

Based on some "Real World Testing" RS4/RS6 ICs apparently still succumb to some cooling challenges more consistent with a Stock IC. An IC that addresses both Flow & Cooling would always be the best choice.

They're are several Audis making Big power with Stock & RS4 ICS, but may not be Able to maintain said performance over a period of time due to heat buildup... generally Heat buildup is inevitable. ..the better IC you have...the more time you're setup can maintain peak performance.

At the end of the day..."how long" you can maintain performance is what a good IC will afford you


Let's leave this alone guys

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[FlyboyS4]

Based on some "Real World Testing" RS4/RS6 ICs apparently still succumb to some cooling challenges more consistent with a Stock IC. An IC that addresses both Flow & Cooling would always be the best choice.

Would you be able to point me to the real world testing you a referring to?

[Bob Marley]

Would you be able to point me to the real world testing you a referring to?

Referring to the "testing" by blitz2190. He says he's driven with them (rs6 ics) and looked at or logged the IATs ... as well as noticed the decrease in performance with the build up of heat...compared to a previous set of "name brand" ICs he's run on the same car. This is as "Real world" as we have gotten as of yet as far as comparison... unless someone else chimes in...surely this "testing" is full of holes & inaccuracies...but still worth considering IMHO. Neither testing could be used solely to prove much other than my previous statement. I don't believe any blanket statement can be made based on the information provided. Hell I have a pair of RS4s that I haven't run yet...so I'm team RS4. I have never run them, but I hope they perform well for my tune and current setup, I'll be sure to update after my build..but at this time I can't provide my personal experience, so I'm dependent on others biased or not.

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[insomniacxp1]

Flyboys done the actual testing, there is no argument now.