IAT and Engine Coolant Temps

[sirsycott]

between 204-208 for my coolant temps according to p3 gauge, never logged iat

AMS coolant system, stage 2 , 91 oct , roc euro intake

[whiped]

I have no recent logs on hand but here is one from a few months ago.

Ambient was probably 40 f or so, timing along the bottom is from VCDS and is not seconds. This was with a Stage 1 tune + CTS pulley + CW and the AWE Coldfront HE/Res.



I'll do an up to date one once I go out logging again.

[abamfo]

I'm on a 3.17 ratio. I hit probably somewhere around 19psi-20psi. I have to estimate. The tune will request 1.25 max... usually around 1.2bar. The bypass opens on that. then i keep the bypass closed with CW which will give low boost readings. Somewhere over 18.5psi anyways.

Right now the investment is very low. I actually have a smaller camaro reservoir packed away somewhere from when i upgraded mine. should fit perfectly. gotta go looking through boxes. grr

Right, I forgot about the CW skewing up the figures. Have you had a software upgrade on yours?

I have a 3.21 ratio and can hit around 2300hpa in 3rd no CW (which is the max the APR Stage II+ tune requests), which means I hit around 18.8-9 PSI maximum.

What do you think of the OEM water pump? My shop seems to think it is quite good, Revo never even upgraded it when they came up with their charge cooler. Thinking of doing that modification with the wires so that you can run it 100% of the time but being able to close it when highway driving, etc. Then if it blows up simply replacing with the AWE pump.

Are you considering the KillerChiller unit?

[lowjonathan]

Let me tell you i'm having a heck of a time. I think I may have to have something custom made. Theres a reason APR and AMS use the drivers side of the car to mount their reservoirs... and they mount them below the SC... the worst place you could when it comes to getting air trapped in the system. They dont do that out of preference. They do it bc thats where they have space.

I want a bottle higher up though so bleeding is a breeze. grrr. I'm going to keep messing with it. If I have to go custom i'll let people know so maybe we can get a group buy.

Mike

Great....
Do share if u have fixed in something...As i want to divorce my PLM kit...

[bhvrdr]

I found this in my attic...

google image...



Its so small it probably holds around 6 ounces of fluid. I had tossed it in a parts bin in order to grab a gallon and a half sized reservoir for the SS. I mocked that one up as it does have a nice long shape but it is still way too big. I'm thinking if I had one custom made it would probably max out at less than a gallon fitting it on the driver side up high. Thats not worth it IMO. I'm not going to divorce the system if I cant add much more capacity. I need to check the firewall where the windshield washer bottle is.


I'm not going killer chiller for a couple reasons. I may keep the car as the value drops and use it for a track car. The killer chiller turns off under WOT (the compressor shuts off). So its fine for a 1/4 mile run since the car cools right back down as you go back through staging. For road courses it would be a disaster. You'd do some damage. The other reason is that for right now i'm trying a bit of a sleeper project. My plans may change but for now I want to keep an OEM look to everything.

The water pump was apparently tested by AMS and APR and it can stop at 8psi so they say. To be honest I dont know how it will hold up. We'll have to see how the flow is if I can find a way to increase capacity an appreciable amount.


Mike

[xpoweruk]

I'm sure you could squeeze the Roush Mustang one in somewhere
https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...0-ba/overview/

[bhvrdr]

Yeah I've looked at that one too. Its not the right shape and only has a 1/2 gallon capacity. I'm not 100% it would be worth it at all for that capacity.

Some engineer may know but it seems our system is basically divorced anyways. How much interaction between the engine and SC coolant is there? It doesnt seem like there could be much at all from the diagrams. Otherwise our SC coolant temps and Intake Air temps would be sky high.

When APR tested the "divorced" system they also included a huge reservoir that they hide in the passenger side low down that looks like it adds at least a gallon of capacity. So their slightly lower temps with the system divorced is not really just a test of the system being divorced, its a test of a gallon of added capacity which confounds the results of just divorcing the system. Interestingly, AMS research stated they found no benefit in divorcing the system alone (without adding capacity). They could have done it easily at basically no additional cost (their system already includes a pump and reservoir) but they choose not to.

[Mat@1975]

Hello,

Another advantage of non divorced (like AMS or Stock) is that you will always be warned if you loose coolant on both loops.

BR

Mat

[abamfo]

Yeah I've looked at that one too. Its not the right shape and only has a 1/2 gallon capacity. I'm not 100% it would be worth it at all for that capacity.

Some engineer may know but it seems our system is basically divorced anyways. How much interaction between the engine and SC coolant is there? It doesnt seem like there could be much at all from the diagrams. Otherwise our SC coolant temps and Intake Air temps would be sky high.

When APR tested the "divorced" system they also included a huge reservoir that they hide in the passenger side low down that looks like it adds at least a gallon of capacity. So their slightly lower temps with the system divorced is not really just a test of the system being divorced, its a test of a gallon of added capacity which confounds the results of just divorcing the system. Interestingly, AMS research stated they found no benefit in divorcing the system alone (without adding capacity). They could have done it easily at basically no additional cost (their system already includes a pump and reservoir) but they choose not to.

If you run the killer chiller in conjunction with a heatsink I'm not sure why you can't track the car, probably just need to ensure you have a strong pump. You will likely not get the "below ambient" temperatures during regular driving like they advertise with no heatsink but your temps will be much closer to ambient all the time.

I agree that it's not a completed integrated loop but I can't see how coolant in the expansion tank (which in my car is extremely hot after a decent period of driving) mixes with coolant coming off the heatsink and doesn't effect the temps dramatically.

It will be interesting to see the results for the updated CPS kit which APR is bringing out.

[bhvrdr]

Possibly. But on a road course the killer chiller would pretty much never be on for the entire 30 minute session. I dont see that working out real well. Even their company says this is a no, no.



Does anyone know of a 160 degree thermostat that will work in our cars? Anyone tried one?


Mike

[SPONGE]

Question to those that ran stacked heat exchangers.
I see that some of you ended up going to a brand name core afterwards.
Was the stacked set up comparable or significantly worse than the core.

I see Bhvrdr (Mike) ran stacked and now has the Revo HE. What is your impression on the switch?

[bhvrdr]

Keep in mind all i added was a side mount. Then i upgraded my center with revo and still have the sidemount in place. Others who have stacked have added much bigger hx than my sidemount. Id think those guys are doing well. For me it was a small but noticeable difference adding the smhx (maybe 5 to 8 degrees or so) but huge adding the revo (another 15 deg C)

Mike

[SPONGE]

Keep in mind all i added was a side mount. Then i upgraded my center with revo and still have the sidemount in place. Others who have stacked have added much bigger hx than my sidemount. Id think those guys are doing well. For me it was a small but noticeable difference adding the smhx (maybe 5 to 8 degrees or so) but huge adding the revo (another 15 deg C)

Mike

This information is giving me food for thought. I can save some funds by stacking an aftermarket dual pass heat exchanger with the OEM, then run finish off the heat soak with Water Meth (AEM kit and custom tune.)
vs
buying a PLM with or without res and running the AEM kit.

I'm Trying to find the right blend of savings and benefit. (Core, custom bracket, hoses plus installation (which might total $800 or less) vs PLM / Revo ($900 / $1100 Kit plus installation Fee upward of $250+) Both with the addition of the Water Meth kit ($400 plus accessories $100 plus install) Retune ($300)

[SCHOUGY]

I picked up the new APR CPS recently and Im not entirely convinced.

APR Stage 2 w/DP, AWE S-FLO Intake, APR CPS.

72F on Saturday when I was testing.
Torque was reading 44C before I started. At the end of my run (60-150mph), IAT climbed to 87C and coolant was at 105C. I get that I'm pushing the car harder etc,etc...but this seems really high to me.

Even when I wasn't pushing the car and normal city driving when it was ~57F out, I was seeing 45-50C cruising temps at 35-40mph and hit almost 75C when the wife and I pulled over for about 5-10min with the car still running.

I feel like I wasn't even close to this when I had the stock cooler. Has anyone else seen anything similar with the new APR CPS?

I emailed APR and haven't heard back yet.

[scottycs]

Sounds like you need to bleed the system.

I picked up the new APR CPS recently and Im not entirely convinced.

APR Stage 2 w/DP, AWE S-FLO Intake, APR CPS.

72F on Saturday when I was testing.
Torque was reading 44C before I started. At the end of my run (60-150mph), IAT climbed to 87C and coolant was at 105C. I get that I'm pushing the car harder etc,etc...but this seems really high to me.

Even when I wasn't pushing the car and normal city driving when it was ~57F out, I was seeing 45-50C cruising temps at 35-40mph and hit almost 75C when the wife and I pulled over for about 5-10min with the car still running.

I feel like I wasn't even close to this when I had the stock cooler. Has anyone else seen anything similar with the new APR CPS?

I emailed APR and haven't heard back yet.

[SCHOUGY]

pardon my ignorance...doesn't the new APR CPS have an auto-bleed?

[whiped]

Don't you love misleading marketing?

You will still need to bleed the air pockets out of the SC side of the "U".

There are two plastic bleed screws on the back of the SC under the plastic cover.

Be very careful with these, they like to break.

[SCHOUGY]

I would hope that the shop that did the install would've done this but I'll check with them. Thanks

[rgvsq5]

Don't you love misleading marketing?

You will still need to bleed the air pockets out of the SC side of the "U".

There are two plastic bleed screws on the back of the SC under the plastic cover.

Be very careful with these, they like to break.

It's going to take an act of God for me to get these screws loose. Tried both sides with a large philips bit and it spun right around without budging the screw... Essentially stripping them out. My next option is to lock a pair of channel locks on them and go HAM. However, I should probably have some backup bleeder screws on hand. :|

[whiped]

It's going to take an act of God for me to get these screws loose. Tried both sides with a large philips bit and it spun right around without budging the screw... Essentially stripping them out. My next option is to lock a pair of channel locks on them and go HAM. However, I should probably have some backup bleeder screws on hand. :|

I had no issue getting them out with a normal phillips multiple times. Then one time, *pop*... F*********k

Here is a quick DIY

Go to the hardware store and buy the following:

2x M8-1.00 x16 bolts (0.56 ea)
2x M8 O-rings (0.34 ea)

Compare the Bolt to the stock one in the picture below:

From top to bottom:

Completed Replacement
Bolt with bleed slit cut into it
Stock Plastic Bolt.

The first thing to do is cut a slit in the side of the bolt that goes most of the way up. This is what is used to actually bleed the system.

You then need to taper the bottom ~6mm of the bolt. (This is because only part of the hole is tapped)

I used a Dremel for both of these.



When you go to replace the stock ones do not tighten these ones too much. They should be snug but not tight!

Note: The stock bleed screw is 15 mm long, the bottom 5mm of it is tapered, the slit is 12mm long from the bottom.



I bought some extra hardware last time I was at the store to make some bleed screws for people. If anyone here is interested I can knock some out for you as well.

@SCHOUGY, even if they did the small air pockets could have moved and be stuck there now. I'd bleed it yourself just to be safe.

Be careful though, those SOBs ruined my weekend.

[JD S4]

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like the area between the two firewalls has way more room for a resevoir for cooling than anyone in the bay.. Most of the meth kits stay in there - couldn't we get someone to make a large resevoir to fit between the two spaces that could be used for either meth or as a divorced/integrated coolant res? The ones under hood are always tiny and going to the trunk is a PITA (though huge)..

[rgvsq5]

I had no issue getting them out with a normal phillips multiple times. Then one time, *pop*... F*********k



@SCHOUGY, even if they did the small air pockets could have moved and be stuck there now. I'd bleed it yourself just to be safe.

Be careful though, those SOBs ruined my weekend.

Quick update: One of mine just snapped. :|

How did you remove the portion stuck in SC once head broke off?

[whiped]

Ouch. Are you Chris in the FB group?

I think your best bet is to cut/drill a slit into it and try to remove it with a flathead.

Using an extractor the thing just crumbled to pieces.

[dave1078]

I would hope that the shop that did the install would've done this but I'll check with them. Thanks

Curious to know if bleeding improves your IATs. I was looking at a CPS.

Can anyone else running just an upgraded heat exchanger (APR, AWE, etc) chime in on their results?

[SCHOUGY]

Curious to know if bleeding improves your IATs. I was looking at a CPS.

Can anyone else running just an upgraded heat exchanger (APR, AWE, etc) chime in on their results?

That is what I was wondering if anyone else had logged temps while WOT for a long while or even just cruising around with traffic and such.

[scottycs]

I replaced them with metal bolts from Lowe's.

Also, those temps seem extremely high. I don't log, but I have iats wtih my P3 and new chip.

[whiped]

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like the area between the two firewalls has way more room for a resevoir for cooling than anyone in the bay.. Most of the meth kits stay in there - couldn't we get someone to make a large resevoir to fit between the two spaces that could be used for either meth or as a divorced/integrated coolant res? The ones under hood are always tiny and going to the trunk is a PITA (though huge)..

My meth was a very tight fit between the firewalls. It has a 1.15 gallon tank, you couldn't go much bigger.

[whiped]

Curious to know if bleeding improves your IATs. I was looking at a CPS.

Can anyone else running just an upgraded heat exchanger (APR, AWE, etc) chime in on their results?

AWE kit, I divorced the loops but it shouldn't make much difference other than pressure.

[dave1078]

AWE kit, I divorced the loops but it shouldn't make much difference other than pressure.

Thanks for this. Are these 4th gear runs? Curious how a stock HX would look.

[whiped]

1/4 passes.

1st to top of 4th.

Stock HX would probably look like the light purple(Run 10). Quickly up to 75+ then the ECU would dump power to keep it from going boom.

[bhvrdr]

1/4 passes.

1st to top of 4th.

Stock HX would probably look like the light purple(Run 10). Quickly up to 75+ then the ECU would dump power to keep it from going boom.

Yeah I ran the stock hx for quite some time and would see upwards of 84C on a WOT run. Timing would go down to 13-15 degrees or so. Revo now only gets up to 65C or so and timing holds nicely upwards of 20 degrees on 93.

[SCHOUGY]

1/4 passes.

1st to top of 4th.

Stock HX would probably look like the light purple(Run 10). Quickly up to 75+ then the ECU would dump power to keep it from going boom.

what was ambient during these runs

[whiped]

Err... 60-ish

[B8 S4]

So what HX is everyone coming to a consensus is the best option as of now? I was looking at APR vs AWE based upon it is a dual pass unit.

[bhvrdr]

So what HX is everyone coming to a consensus is the best option as of now? I was looking at APR vs AWE based upon it is a dual pass unit.

I'm extremely pleased with the Revo unit. In addition, there are folks who had great luck with the stacked DIY option for $150 from mercracing and now merc has a quad pass full sized unit they are selling for $300 that is larger than any others on the market. Something to think about.

Mike

[dave1078]

I'm extremely pleased with the Revo unit. In addition, there are folks who had great luck with the stacked DIY option for $150 from mercracing and now merc has a quad pass full sized unit they are selling for $300 that is larger than any others on the market. Something to think about.

Mike

This would put me at stage 2 a lot sooner than units at 3+ times the cost.

[FromRagsToS4]

Can't wait to get mine. I'll try to write up a review with data after it gets installed and tested.

[Loe]

Quick update: One of mine just snapped. :|

How did you remove the portion stuck in SC once head broke off?

Just use another screw that has a pointy end (sheetmetal or wood screw), Pretty much use your hands to screw it into the plastic and then use a screwdriver to screw it in. The action will reverse the remaining plastic out. It may not be 100% clean, so you'll have to clean it up some. Then use some M8 x 1 screws to replace the plastic ones, you can technically still bleed using regular screws, it's just not as simple, but it'll get the job done.

[dave1078]

AWE kit, I divorced the loops but it shouldn't make much difference other than pressure.

Read through the whole thread about the MercRacing HX and then saw that you reconnected everything to the stock loop again. Not really worth the trouble of divorcing the loops?

[rgvsq5]

Just use another screw that has a pointy end (sheetmetal or wood screw), Pretty much use your hands to screw it into the plastic and then use a screwdriver to screw it in. The action will reverse the remaining plastic out. It may not be 100% clean, so you'll have to clean it up some. Then use some M8 x 1 screws to replace the plastic ones, you can technically still bleed using regular screws, it's just not as simple, but it'll get the job done.

I managed to get remaining plastic out, used a make-shift suction device to stick down in the hole in to the coolant and get some of the plastic bits that fell in, out and then screws in an M8x1 bolt with O ring. Still need to bleed, but I'm tempted to tackle the other side as well and go through the absolute nightmare again so I can have bolts on both sides.

I can bleed using the bolts even if I don't have a notch cut in to the threads?


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