B6 s4 Tri-Y (4-2-1) header has anyone tried it?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

I thought it might be of some benefit to start a thread on the benefits or drawbacks of tri-Y )aka 4-2-1) headers.

As I outlined on my build thread, I think that the SSAutochrome (SSAC) headers are a great candidate for a header of this kind.

The reason I'm going this route is that I think that the the SSAC primaries are undersized at 1.5 in OD, that and the SSAC 4-1 collectors on the header itself are garbage.

Now STOP!!!! lol, resist the knee jerk impulse to say "yadda yadda yadda, ebay headers garbage, XXX went 10.8321 at 200 MPH with company X's magic headers"......

I want to find out if
a) there is a decent header for this platform for under $1000 and

b) if a tri-Y might actually be a better design than the usual 4-1 equal length as these are 90deg crossplane engines. I mean, there has to be some benefit to being able to pair the pulses rather than just collecting the uneven pulses in a common collector.

So with all that said, I think that you can 'rehabilitate' these headers for a couple extra hundred dollars and some welding.

My question though, is: Has anyone actually tried this design on a B6 S4? I suspect that you could get some excellent results.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So I was researching this and I came across this SAE article https://www.scribd.com/document/2557...Exhaust-Design

I'm not too certain if the results can be translated directly to an S4, but it gives me a starting point.







The main take away points were:

1) a 35mm/1.37 in primary (which is exactly the same as the SS autochrome primary diamter) scavenges best between 4000-5000 RPM.

2) a 42mm/1.65 in primary scavenges best at 5500 RPM

3) the best gas scavenging at 5500 RPM was with a 900 mm 35 in long primary. While this is too long for the SS autochrome header, halving the 35 in length to 17.5 in will allow us to catch the next harmonic.

What this suggests to me is that I want to splice a 1.65 or 1.75 in Y pipe at approximately 18 inches. This is perfect as it allows about 12 inches of collector length before the final 1.75 in to 2.50 in collector.

Thoughts?

[VinnysS4]

Ive been wondering this for a while now. Why are headers so darn expensive for our cars? My coworker is talking about getting a pair of brand name headers for his mustang and they are like 1/4th the price. i mean... come on. you make one set that fits, makes power and is made out of DOM Stainless...and you duplicate each bend 10 or 20 times and weld them all together. There are plenty of good exhaust manufacturers out there and a TON of good welders. Theres no reason for the price to be above 1000. I have decided to buy this set: http://www.icengineworks.com/ and make a set of headers and down pipes for my S4. I work in a custom metal fabrication shop and shouldn't have any issues getting the stuff i need to make a set. I'm planning on pulling my engine in the next few months and will venture out then. Until then, i wish you the best of luck.
Keep us posted!

[sandspeed]

Ive been wondering this for a while now. Why are headers so darn expensive for our cars? My coworker is talking about getting a pair of brand name headers for his mustang and they are like 1/4th the price. i mean... come on. you make one set that fits, makes power and is made out of DOM Stainless...and you duplicate each bend 10 or 20 times and weld them all together. There are plenty of good exhaust manufacturers out there and a TON of good welders. Theres no reason for the price to be above 1000. I have decided to buy this set: http://www.icengineworks.com/ and make a set of headers and down pipes for my S4. I work in a custom metal fabrication shop and shouldn't have any issues getting the stuff i need to make a set. I'm planning on pulling my engine in the next few months and will venture out then. Until then, i wish you the best of luck.
Keep us posted!

Economy of scale. There are for more people modifying Mustangs than there are S4s on the road. That, and aftermarket tuners in the non-1.8t/2.0t world have to make a decent profit on each thing they design/fab/sell, as there are far fewer customers to share the load to generate enough profits to keep them open.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Vinny, I agree entirely that there has to be a way to make a reasonably priced set of headers for these cars. Congratulations on taking the initiative and investing in the icengineworks header development kit I sincerely hope that you can come up with a good design for a reasonable price.

While I don't begrudge JHM for selling $2500 headers, I don't feel that it's a good value for the money. Yes, they're very well made, however, I don't think that a 4-1 design is optimal on a 90 deg crossplane engine.

Now, I have no idea why JHM didn't make a 4-2-1 design. Maybe it had to do with space constraints, but I suspect that it had to do more with profit margins. I mean, if you're the only game in town, why incur the extra cost for the 2-1 transitions when you can still make gains with a simpler to design 4-1 header.

However, that's just my opinion. If people want to spend $2500 on a set of JHM headers and they're happy with the gains vs $ spent, then hey, I honestly say more power to them.

In any event, Vinny, let me know how you make out. I'll also be MORE than happy to share any data that I happen to gather when I install my SS Autochrome based 4-2-1 headers.

****Also, Vinny, do you have any thoughts as to the proposed layout of my headers? (i.e. primary lengths and outlets, ets...)***

[VinnysS4]

Are the SS Autochrome headers the same thing as the XS power headers?( I notice they sell both) I'm curious.... they say 304 stainless steel tubes and 321 for the flanges. I use 304 all the time at work. Pretty common material and much better than mild steel. I've heard that the welds crack on the XS headers... I wonder from what. They are still built out of 16 gauge.
I'm not bashing JHM, but I just have a hard time paying that much for some headers. I guarantee if someone else started making headers for our platform for $1000 and they provided gains like the JHM ones do... a lot of guys would buy a set. Now I understand how business goes. These wouldn't be a revolving door of profit as there are only so many S4's out there... but still. I get the cost of development. I really do. Someone has to remove the engine, build a set that fits and dyno them to make sure their time wasn't a waste. But I bet pretty much any tubular manifold would make better gains than the stock manifold. If you were already removing the engine, this is a perfect time to throw in a set.

As far as design ideas go for a 4-2-1 setup.. im not sure. I myself have been contemplating this. A 4-1 collector seems less efficient than a 4-2-1 design.

Is it more common on other crossplane V8's to have a 4-2-1 style header or a 4-1 design?

[James777]

Watching this with much interest!!

James

[Hooblah]

4-1 for top end power, 4-2-1 for more mid range.

Xspower = ssac

[dammad]

4-1 for top end power, 4-2-1 for more mid range.

Xspower = ssac

https://daviem.wordpress.com/s4-transplant/

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[dammad]

Tri-Y yes I have that now.

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[milk]

What are the specs on the custom job and how hard was getting everything to fit?

[Terry.Reese]

Lol, here I am going to try these Audi A8 D2 Manifolds
IMG_20180302_150047329%7E01%7E01.jpgIMG_20180302_150053427%7E01%7E01.jpgIMG_20180302_153309129%7E01%7E01.jpg

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[Terry.Reese]

Tri-Y yes I have that now.

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That's pretty awesome looking, you sell these at all?

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[HOJeepster]

Read these posts, super cool build: https://daviem.wordpress.com/s4-transplant/

[VinnysS4]

He sells them on eBay for like 600 or 700 a pair. Killer deal if you ask me. He hit me up a while back with his eBay link

That's pretty awesome looking, you sell these at all?

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[VinnysS4]

Lol, here I am going to try these Audi A8 D2 Manifolds
IMG_20180302_150047329%7E01%7E01.jpgIMG_20180302_150053427%7E01%7E01.jpgIMG_20180302_153309129%7E01%7E01.jpg

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Just curious.. why these ones?

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[Terry.Reese]

Quintin and I were going to test these off this premise in this FB post the S4 ones the first 2 ports combine into one port. won't be any gains, but should give a better exhaust note.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

[Terry.Reese]

happen to have a link to this on Ebay? even an old one?

[VinnysS4]

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-S4-B6-...oAAOSwpvZaCzrg



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[dammad]

That's pretty awesome looking, you sell these at all?

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Yes Terry I try to keep a set available.
Fitted in October 2014, no issues at all, just heavy breathing under the bonnet ;-)

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[dammad]

Read these posts, super cool build: https://daviem.wordpress.com/s4-transplant/

Thank you, it was well worth it, I'll let my mate Scott know, couldn't have done it without him

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[ZimbutheMonkey]

dammad, so you're selling the tri-y headers pictured above for $600-700 a set!!!???

If so, that's a hell of a deal. I may have to look at picking up a set for my Cabrio.

I lost a pin out of a chain tensioner so I'll have to pull the motor at some point. I think the gains above and beyond my catless downpipes would be worth the cost.

Will these fit an automatic though?

One other question, given that you seem to have more access to RS4 parts than we do in North America, do you ever run across any RS4 intake manifolds with damaged flaps that a guy could pick up on the cheap?

I've been toying with the idea of cutting off the last 4 inches of the RS4 manifold runners (so the parts that contain the flaps) and grafting on the S4 mating flanges/injector bosses.

If you look at the short runner portion of the S4 intake, the port shapes are the worst possible flowing design (square ports). I'm positive that the trumpet design of the RS4 intake manifold runners would make significant gains.

While I know you would loose some low end torque, it would be negligible in my case as I flip to short runners at 3600 RPM anyway.

[VinnysS4]

I did the conversion. $780. I was off a little bit.

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[dammad]

dammad, so you're selling the tri-y headers pictured above for $600-700 a set!!!???

If so, that's a hell of a deal. I may have to look at picking up a set for my Cabrio.

I lost a pin out of a chain tensioner so I'll have to pull the motor at some point. I think the gains above and beyond my catless downpipes would be worth the cost.

Will these fit an automatic though?

One other question, given that you seem to have more access to RS4 parts than we do in North America, do you ever run across any RS4 intake manifolds with damaged flaps that a guy could pick up on the cheap?

I've been toying with the idea of cutting off the last 4 inches of the RS4 manifold runners (so the parts that contain the flaps) and grafting on the S4 mating flanges/injector bosses.

If you look at the short runner portion of the S4 intake, the port shapes are the worst possible flowing design (square ports). I'm positive that the trumpet design of the RS4 intake manifold runners would make significant gains.

While I know you would loose some low end torque, it would be negligible in my case as I flip to short runners at 3600 RPM anyway.

Not suitable for an auto, but I know that will in no way prevent you from adapting them, to do that it's only two pipes to mod on each side, easy.
I know the heads of the RS4 are different to the S4, (I'm afraid to say this) but I have a feeling the intake plenum may fit, the reason I say this is that I've seen an RS4 supercharger that was advertised and the seller stated it would fit either car, I know this doesn't make any sense but got me thinking, I know the M90 would not be suitable for the RS4 but what if?...
I haven't had the opportunity to check this as I'm very busy, if this were close, then a conversion gasket in nylon could serve two purposes.
I'll ask around about a plenum for you, that would be very interesting, and you'd be the first to fit that to the five valve head

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[dammad]

I did the conversion. $780. I was off a little bit.

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Sorry, what was the conversion that you did?

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[VinnysS4]

£560.00 to US dollar. = aprox $780 us dollars

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[dammad]

dammad, so you're selling the tri-y headers pictured above for $600-700 a set!!!???

If so, that's a hell of a deal. I may have to look at picking up a set for my Cabrio.

I lost a pin out of a chain tensioner so I'll have to pull the motor at some point. I think the gains above and beyond my catless downpipes would be worth the cost.

Will these fit an automatic though?

One other question, given that you seem to have more access to RS4 parts than we do in North America, do you ever run across any RS4 intake manifolds with damaged flaps that a guy could pick up on the cheap?

I've been toying with the idea of cutting off the last 4 inches of the RS4 manifold runners (so the parts that contain the flaps) and grafting on the S4 mating flanges/injector bosses.

If you look at the short runner portion of the S4 intake, the port shapes are the worst possible flowing design (square ports). I'm positive that the trumpet design of the RS4 intake manifold runners would make significant gains.

While I know you would loose some low end torque, it would be negligible in my case as I flip to short runners at 3600 RPM anyway.

I can get the hold of an RS4 plenum yes

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[dammad]

Has anyone done a comparison of the inlet port dimensions, distances and bolt positions etc on the RS4 and the S4 heads? they are bound to be very much different from each other.

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[VinnysS4]

Has anyone done a comparison of the inlet port dimensions, distances and bolt positions etc on the RS4 and the S4 heads? they are bound to be very much different from each other.

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I actually received the wrong head gaskets for the RS4 heads. Bolt spacing, oil ports, water jackets don't line up

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[dammad]

I actually received the wrong head gaskets for the RS4 heads. Bolt spacing, oil ports, water jackets don't line up

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That's interesting, I've often wondered about that as well as the inlet

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[VinnysS4]

That's interesting, I've often wondered about that as well as the inlet

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Yeah, and rockauto argued to the death that they were the right ones lol

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[ZimbutheMonkey]

Has anyone done a comparison of the inlet port dimensions, distances and bolt positions etc on the RS4 and the S4 heads? they are bound to be very much different from each other.

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So does anyone know if centerlines of the intake ports will line up between the B6/B7 S4 and B7 RS4?

Also, does anyone know what the differences in dimensions are between the two?

I suspect that they won't be a perfect match, however just by eyeballing the intake manifold gaskets, I think that they're close enough to make a hybrid S4/RS4 intake manifold feasible.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Lol, here I am going to try these Audi A8 D2 Manifolds
IMG_20180302_150047329%7E01%7E01.jpgIMG_20180302_150053427%7E01%7E01.jpgIMG_20180302_153309129%7E01%7E01.jpg

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One more thing you may want to consider is welding on a pike to extend the area where the exhaust pulse contacts the primary tube.

I don't know that it will amount to much power-wise, but Cone Engineering sells them for pretty cheap. For the nominal cost, it would be worth it to try it out.

[Terry.Reese]

One more thing you may want to consider is welding on a pike to extend the area where the exhaust pulse contacts the primary tube.

I don't know that it will amount to much power-wise, but Cone Engineering sells them for pretty cheap. For the nominal cost, it would be worth it to try it out.

not exactly sure what you are describing here.

[q_dubz]

not exactly sure what you are describing here.

adding a tip that extends from the "+" you see in the exit of the manifold

[Terry.Reese]

adding a tip that extends from the "+" you see in the exit of the manifold

so one of these?]


or this? http://www.coneeng.com/conical_products.html

[VinnysS4]

This year my next big purchase will be a welder, and one of these kits:

https://www.icengineworks.com

The possibilities are endless.

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[ZimbutheMonkey]

adding a tip that extends from the "+" you see in the exit of the manifold

this

You also may want to make a slight taper cone afterwards along with an anti-reversion baffle (basically imagine if you take a hydroformed tube that wraps around the OD of the actual pipe)

[q_dubz]

so one of these?]


or this? http://www.coneeng.com/conical_products.html

Dammit Terry lol


THIS
http://www.coneeng.com/collector_components.html