Dual pulley on OEM tune with Chipwerke 7-1 LOGS

[fitzydude]

I'm planning on running CW with my Revo tune in the near future but my local Revo dealer has stopped flashing Revo... So I'll have to make a weekday trip to Houston or Austin to the next closest Revo dealer and that could be awhile before I find the time. In the mean time I plan on running a Chipwerke Pro w/stage 2 on the OEM map with dual pulley (57/179).

I took some logs today on the 7-1 setting and initial results aren't looking too great. I'm getting a lot of timing pull on 93 octane and the bypass valve starts opening around 4900. I didn't do a full ecu reset by disconnecting the battery. I only reset the DTC's in the VCDS program which I read was supposed to clear the ecu. I logged on the 6-1 setting and I saw similar amounts of timing being pulled when I did not reset the ecu, then when I did a full reset I was still seeing timing being pulled but it on got up to 4-5 degrees. I'll reset the ECU and try again. Then I'll plan on mixing E85 and trying again.

[-leman-]

It's hard to say what's going on as CW alters MAP values, so your low actual manifold pressure and air mass in the logs say nothing about the actual state of things.

Bypass obviously opens as just as soon as your "actual" post-CW manifold pressure reaches the OE specified value, but I do agree that the ignition retards do not look good. E85 should help (at least a bit) but I would not push the car too much on pump gas. Log AFR and you would probably see the mixture is quite lean as it was originally mapped for 0,7 bar boost and not the one you're getting now with CW (whatever it is).

[Jflow23]

May be worth doing a throttle body alignment too, you accelerator position looks a little low. Should be in ~85 region from what I remember.

The other question is the actual effect of the Chipwerke on the MAP. Specified and actual boost are on target...so the bypass has to open. Although I am uncertain, I believe CW works by altering the pressure reading at the MAPs, which invalidates the data in column J. If J is in fact invalid, IATs are likely higher than expected and timing is retarded in accordance with stock protections. The logs only show a 2d picture, where the actual MAPs are multi-dimensional as they relate to the different variables like pressure, timing, throttle position and temperature. CW artificially supresses one variable to create more boost and leaves the rest of the MAP to compensate.

The other effect is adaptation or the parameters that need to be adjusted to compensate for the tolerances in all the engine components...which is why we have to reset the ECU.

Would be worth looking at a log w/o CW for a side by side comparison on the same car...I don't think your timing issue is a function of knock but a combination of effects that occur when the pressure signal is manipulated.

Although it's worth nothing without logs, I ran my CW on 7-1 on a dual pulley setup. 7-1 was the only setting that did not give me consistent drivability issues while making that much excess pressure.

Bottom line, pick a setting, reset ecu with VCDS, let it adapt for a few days and then log...should give you better insight on how the system performs with one variable being constantly suppressed. Check your corrections after the adaptation period, if they are too high, lower the setting, if no corrections are made increase the setting or press with what you have.

I think you can safely run 7-1 with all of the factory nannies in place...but logging after the adaptation period is the only way to be sure. The Stage II CW thread has a few 7-1 logs with corrections around 4 at the top end like you saw.

PS... AFR like Leman mentioned above may be the key to understanding if you are safe or not.

[bhvrdr]

Keep in mind the CW manipulates only one variable directly...thats MAP. This has an impact on multiple other tables indirectly.

Timing retard is depending on one single variable... knock sensor voltage. Thats the most timing you can run right now given your octane, ambients, and boost. The car will try and achieve more timing the less boost it thinks it is making (ie, the higher you turn up the settings on the CW). The factory safeties will pull that timing out in response to knock voltages. It appears this is happening. If you run some e85 I suspect you are going to see alot more power from timing.

These cars run closed loop so your AFR with CW is usually going to be a bit richer, not leaner than the factory AFR. This is only because Audi's OEM tables will target .9 lambda and then enrich based on a multitude of factors like IAT and EGT. The stock car running stock boost and under WOT runs tends to enrich at around 5K rpm to around .85 to .80 lambda. When you add the CW and have more boost the car will naturally show some higher IATs/EGTs and the enrichment tends to come on a bit sooner and a bit more in magnitude. I've seen .80 to .78 or so lambda in the upper rpm band.


Quick summary of the logs then shows nothing you might not expect to see. The CW "stage 2" is meant to be used with a single pulley and is not aggressive enough (doesnt lower the spoofed actual boost reading) to keep the bpv closed running dual pulley. Someone would need to contact the CW person to get a new map if that is what they were wanting to do. For stacking on a stage 2 flash tune, this should work fine.


As you can see with timing, the CW is going to indirectly influence the ECU to request more timing. If you have a reasonably timed stage 2 flash tune this should not be an issue. If your stage 2 tune already is pretty aggressive in requesting timing you may end up retarding so much you open the BPV. Logging is going to tell you that. You could always run a 91 file or add a splash of e85 or lucas octane booster.

Good luck with it. Definitely run the logs with your stage 2 tune on.

Mike

[abamfo]

I also have tried this and the ignition timing set in the OEM file is too high for the combustion heat and pressure of the dual pulley setup on 93 fuel... adding E85 will remove the detonation but it will not close the bypass valve, I suspect... agree with Mike though, this will look a lot different with the Revo "Stage 2" tune or even your EPL "Stage 2" tune as that will impact the base requested boost to something closer to a dual pulley tune... really looking forward to seeing your Revo results actually, make sure your reset all adaptions and do throttle body etc. when you install the "Stage 2" + CW (note that if you reset adaptions the car will not run properly unless you do a throttle body and bypass valve adaption. I always check and run the adaptions first to make sure that they can be completed prior to resetting)

I am running the APR "Stage 2" test pipe file (v3.1) WITHOUT the CW unit but dual pulley and seeing around 18-19 PSI on 93 octane fuel with bypass 100% closed, hitting max timing of 17/18* and I see timing being pulled from 2-4* at the top end... pretty hard to avoid detonation with these boost levels from my experience on 93 fuel... I thought that I would have to use the CW unit on the APR v3.1 file but there is enough headroom that the bypass valve stay closed... pull I did last night...

[fitzydude]

Log AFR and you would probably see the mixture is quite lean as it was originally mapped for 0,7 bar boost and not the one you're getting now with CW (whatever it is).

Do you know the channel name for logging AFR? Hopefully the stock program is enriching the mix sufficiently, if the bypass valve were staying completely shut I might be more concerned with AFR right now.

May be worth doing a throttle body alignment too, you accelerator position looks a little low. Should be in ~85 region from what I remember.
Would be worth looking at a log w/o CW for a side by side comparison on the same car...I don't think your timing issue is a function of knock but a combination of effects that occur when the pressure signal is manipulated.

Do you know if there is a throttle body alignment in VCDS and how to get to it? I tried the TB alignment where you press the gas, but values didn't seem to change after that method.

I did log the car without the Chipwerke and the timing looked great with none being pulled. The bypass valve was open over half way most of the time. Which resulted in some rock solid IAT's!

Here’s the non-CW log, I’m still learning the program here so it’s a few entries from multiple pulls:

Quick summary of the logs then shows nothing you might not expect to see. The CW "stage 2" is meant to be used with a single pulley and is not aggressive enough (doesnt lower the spoofed actual boost reading) to keep the bpv closed running dual pulley. Someone would need to contact the CW person to get a new map if that is what they were wanting to do. For stacking on a stage 2 flash tune, this should work fine.

Thank you for the feedback Mike. Also why not just run two stack Chipwerke's to keep the bypass closed! JK..

I also have tried this and the ignition timing set in the OEM file is too high for the combustion heat and pressure of the dual pulley setup on 93 fuel... adding E85 will remove the detonation but it will not close the bypass valve, I suspect... agree with Mike though, this will look a lot different with the Revo "Stage 2" tune or even your EPL "Stage 2" tune as that will impact the base requested boost to something closer to a dual pulley tune... really looking forward to seeing your Revo results actually, make sure your reset all adaptions and do throttle body etc. when you install the "Stage 2" + CW (note that if you reset adaptions the car will not run properly unless you do a throttle body and bypass valve adaption. I always check and run the adaptions first to make sure that they can be completed prior to resetting)

I will keep you posted of the Revo tune with CW. How do I go about doing a bypass valve adaption? Is that in VCDS? The week I'm going to install colder NGK bkr9eix plugs at a 0.28 gap along with testing an E85 mixture.

I did get a chance to re-log after I reset the ecu completely and results were slight better but still poor. The bypass valve was staying closed until 5200 rpm. I'm going to let the ecu adapt all week and try relogging next weekend. I'll do some logging with the colder plugs and the E85 mix to see the effect on the timing.

[Jflow23]

Do you know if there is a throttle body alignment in VCDS and how to get to it? I tried the TB alignment where you press the gas, but values didn't seem to change after that method.

[fitzydude]

Thank you!

[Jflow23]

Thank you!

No problem...slightly off topic, but how's that clutch holding up? The tune you sold me is too buku for my stock clutch. Looking to upgrade ASAP...but there's horror stories everywhere on here with aftermarket clutches. It doesn't look like the Stg 4 is even available anymore...goes from 3 to 5 on the JHM site.

[fitzydude]

No problem...slightly off topic, but how's that clutch holding up? The tune you sold me is too buku for my stock clutch. Looking to upgrade ASAP...but there's horror stories everywhere on here with aftermarket clutches. It doesn't look like the Stg 4 is even available anymore...goes from 3 to 5 on the JHM site.

The JHM stage 4 is a beast and it's been great for almost 20k now. I'm a big fan of Kevlar clutches, some say they don't last as long. But this is my 3rd in various cars and none have failed one over 50k. Drivability is great. I skipped the lightweight flywheel because I hate clutch chatter and they make a whine on these cars. If you can get your hands on one get it. Call JHM though and see what they've got. I'd also install some solid motor mounts while your in there.

[abamfo]

Do you have the 93 "Stage 2" tune for EPL or just the "dual pulley"?? If you do, I advise trying that first as it will likely run higher timing than the dual pulley and will allow you to use the CW unit without any issues around the bypass valve not staying closed. Even if you don't you could buy it and return it if its not working as you want. If you are looking for more advanced ignition timing over the EPL dual pulley tune this would be your easiest path if the Revo dealer is too far away.

The supercharger bypass adaption is in the VCDS - ECU - Settings, I believe, the same area as the throttle body adaption and reset adaptions but it is at the top.

[whiped]

I will look it up tomorrow when I'm on the computer but it is a throttle sensor alignment you will want to do not a TB one.

I posted about the throttle positions last week I think.

FWIW when having the CW too high I see pretty severe timing pull.

In your shoes I would start at 4-1, drive on it for a day then do a pull. If you are bleeding up top turn it up one notch.

[Loe]

to me, your actual vs. spec looks slightly off, can you make sure the CW is running properly? The "actual" field should be lower than the spec field during the majority of the rev band, even if its bypassing.

abamfo, I found the same thing with the APR stage 2 v3.1 file with a local members A6 3.0t, he didn't need a CW at all running an APR upper pulley + a JHM 179mm crank and has headroom for a 183mm crank too. The bypass stayed closed throughout the entire rev range to his shift point (similar to a B8.5 OEM TCU shiftpoint).

[-leman-]

I also have tried this and the ignition timing set in the OEM file is too high for the combustion heat and pressure of the dual pulley setup on 93 fuel... adding E85 will remove the detonation but it will not close the bypass valve, I suspect... agree with Mike though, this will look a lot different with the Revo "Stage 2" tune or even your EPL "Stage 2" tune as that will impact the base requested boost to something closer to a dual pulley tune... really looking forward to seeing your Revo results actually, make sure your reset all adaptions and do throttle body etc. when you install the "Stage 2" + CW (note that if you reset adaptions the car will not run properly unless you do a throttle body and bypass valve adaption. I always check and run the adaptions first to make sure that they can be completed prior to resetting)

I am running the APR "Stage 2" test pipe file (v3.1) WITHOUT the CW unit but dual pulley and seeing around 18-19 PSI on 93 octane fuel with bypass 100% closed, hitting max timing of 17/18* and I see timing being pulled from 2-4* at the top end... pretty hard to avoid detonation with these boost levels from my experience on 93 fuel... I thought that I would have to use the CW unit on the APR v3.1 file but there is enough headroom that the bypass valve stay closed... pull I did last night...

Whoa, that's an interesting find! The EGT issue (if it's really an issue bearing in mind the "calculated" nature of this value) remains though...

Do you know the channel name for logging AFR? Hopefully the stock program is enriching the mix sufficiently, if the bypass valve were staying completely shut I might be more concerned with AFR right now.

I'll check which parameter I logged for AFR when I'm back home in the evening.

[fitzydude]

Do you have the 93 "Stage 2" tune for EPL or just the "dual pulley"?? If you do, I advise trying that first as it will likely run higher timing than the dual pulley and will allow you to use the CW unit without any issues around the bypass valve not staying closed. Even if you don't you could buy it and return it if its not working as you want. If you are looking for more advanced ignition timing over the EPL dual pulley tune this would be your easiest path if the Revo dealer is too far away.

I actually had the EPL DP tune and recently sold it to Jflow. If I'm not seeing the results I want with Revo/CW I'll just remove the CW and drive it the just the Revo 1+ tune, I'm done spending money on this turd!

FWIW when having the CW too high I see pretty severe timing pull.

In your shoes I would start at 4-1, drive on it for a day then do a pull. If you are bleeding up top turn it up one notch.

Thanks for the TB info. I started on the default 6-1 setting and timing pull wasn't as bad. I'll knock it back down if I can't get it down with adaptation, e85, and colder plugs.

to me, your actual vs. spec looks slightly off, can you make sure the CW is running properly? The "actual" field should be lower than the spec field during the majority of the rev band, even if its bypassing.

Yeah I'll check the connections on the CW, but I think it's just because the dual pulley is producing a lot more boost than expected. The actual does break the specified but then it opens the bypass a bit more and that repeats because there is too much boost. Or maybe Ive got a bad bypass valve, I've got a spare I could throw on and see what happens.

[whiped]

I tried digging around but didn't find anything. Accelerator position at WOT should be right around 90. Anything under 85 is considered out of spec.

Mine varies from 15-91 on my car. Throttle Valve Position and Accelerator position are related but controlled individually by the ECU.

Likely not the root of your problem but I am sure it is robbing you of some performance

[fitzydude]

I tried digging around but didn't find anything. Accelerator position at WOT should be right around 90. Anything under 85 is considered out of spec.

Mine varies from 15-91 on my car. Throttle Valve Position and Accelerator position are related but controlled individually by the ECU.

Likely not the root of your problem but I am sure it is robbing you of some performance

Thanks for looking, I'll attempt the TB alignment tonight through VCDS. Do you think I'll need to recalibrate the TB Everytime I reset the ecu?

[SwankP3RF3ct10n]

Detonation city yo. This thread makes no sense... you gave up an EPL tune (from a company that would have been willing to do a custom tune for you had you spoke with Tony about it if you could go to their place) and decided to hack it with a CW and some other shit, which won't be customized just to get what... more timing and a fully closed bypass valve to maintain boost. You do know that the ECU can be tuned to do just that and in a much safer way than your bullshit 6-10 degree worth of timing pull crap you have going on now, right? Dude, no offense, but there's only so much you can do if you want power. Trying to cheat it and lean it out and bump timing to get that last little bit of power is just asking for problems. Also, remember that the ECU can only do so much to safeguard the engine. The thing is, you're having a constant correction issue with timing, so detonation is actually happening and continuing to happen in order to call for those corrections. Remember that the ECU cannot correct without an event happening and the more that shit happens, the more you're causing damage. Running some hacked tune and saying "oh, the corrections are keeping it safe because it's dialing back timing" is NOT keeping anything safe. You need a tune that'll maintain 0 corrections while also performing and in "some" conditions and if needed correcting values like 2-4 degrees max and for maybe one to two cells in the logs... not constant shit like you're seeing. What you've got there buddy is a ticking timebomb. Good job.

[whiped]

Thanks for looking, I'll attempt the TB alignment tonight through VCDS. Do you think I'll need to recalibrate the TB Everytime I reset the ecu?

I've had to adapt mine once in the 5+ times I've swapped the TB.

TB seems to be working correctly in your logs, the accelerator position only peaking at 79 is what looks odd to me.

Doing the TB adaption might fix it but I think they are unrelated.

I am not sure where you would go to adapt the throttle sensor position, there are two different sensors.

If it was my car I would unplug them, pissing the car off so it will tell me where they are hiding.

Plug them back in, double click the fault code in VCDS so it opens to the correct module then poke around from there.

Sensors are on top of the gas pedal.

I never claimed this was a good idea

-----------------------------

I will be doing some logging again tonight as I just put the CTS pulley in. I can look around then if you want.

Detonation city yo. This thread makes no sense... you gave up an EPL tune (from a company that would have been willing to do a custom tune for you had you spoke with Tony about it if you could go to their place) and decided to hack it with a CW and some other shit, which won't be customized just to get what... more timing and a fully closed bypass valve to maintain boost. You do know that the ECU can be tuned to do just that and in a much safer way than your bullshit 6-10 degree worth of timing pull crap you have going on now, right? Dude, no offense, but there's only so much you can do if you want power. Trying to cheat it and lean it out and bump timing to get that last little bit of power is just asking for problems. Also, remember that the ECU can only do so much to safeguard the engine. The thing is, you're having a constant correction issue with timing, so detonation is actually happening and continuing to happen in order to call for those corrections. Remember that the ECU cannot correct without an event happening and the more that shit happens, the more you're causing damage. Running some hacked tune and saying "oh, the corrections are keeping it safe because it's dialing back timing" is NOT keeping anything safe. You need a tune that'll maintain 0 corrections while also performing and in "some" conditions and if needed correcting values like 2-4 degrees max and for maybe one to two cells in the logs... not constant shit like you're seeing. What you've got there buddy is a ticking timebomb. Good job.

Also this. Only reason I am not running a dedicate tune yet is because I am going to wait until going stage 3 and hopefully 034 to release their tune

[fitzydude]

Detonation city yo. This thread makes no sense... you gave up an EPL tune (from a company that would have been willing to do a custom tune for you had you spoke with Tony about it if you could go to their place) and decided to hack it with a CW and some other shit, which won't be customized just to get what... more timing and a fully closed bypass valve to maintain boost. You do know that the ECU can be tuned to do just that and in a much safer way than your bullshit 6-10 degree worth of timing pull crap you have going on now, right? Dude, no offense, but there's only so much you can do if you want power. Trying to cheat it and lean it out and bump timing to get that last little bit of power is just asking for problems. Also, remember that the ECU can only do so much to safeguard the engine. The thing is, you're having a constant correction issue with timing, so detonation is actually happening and continuing to happen in order to call for those corrections. Remember that the ECU cannot correct without an event happening and the more that shit happens, the more you're causing damage. Running some hacked tune and saying "oh, the corrections are keeping it safe because it's dialing back timing" is NOT keeping anything safe. You need a tune that'll maintain 0 corrections while also performing and in "some" conditions and if needed correcting values like 2-4 degrees max and for maybe one to two cells in the logs... not constant shit like you're seeing. What you've got there buddy is a ticking timebomb. Good job.

lol so much hate. I have my reasons for why I did not pursue custom tuning with EPL. The current setup is merely temporary, the ECU is successfully pulling timing protecting the engine from detonation. Mike did mention the only input for the ECU to pull timing is the knock sensor, but it appears something else is in play in that calculation. If it is detonation or not I'll have a look at the plugs and cylinders tops this weekend. Either way this is a learning experience and if the motor blows its just an excuse to rebuild it stronger. Build, race, break, fix, repeat... its what I enjoy.

If it was my car I would unplug them, pissing the car off so it will tell me where they are hiding.

Plug them back in, double click the fault code in VCDS so it opens to the correct module then poke around from there.

Sensors are on top of the gas pedal.

I never claimed this was a good idea

Haha exactly what I would do.

[abamfo]

Whoa, that's an interesting find! The EGT issue (if it's really an issue bearing in mind the "calculated" nature of this value) remains though...



I'll check which parameter I logged for AFR when I'm back home in the evening.

Yeah it is very interesting but no one seems to have any EGT logs they can share for their dual pulley tunes! Aluminium melts at 700*C but obviously with inertia mechanics, etc it is different but I am really worried. Maybe I should speak to APR and find out what they think. Someone here want to share an EGT log?

I logged AFR in my log, its "lambda probes actual probe 1 bank 1/2"

[fitzydude]

Yeah it is very interesting but no one seems to have any EGT logs they can share for their dual pulley tunes! Aluminium melts at 700*C but obviously with inertia mechanics, etc it is different but I am really worried. Maybe I should speak to APR and find out what they think. Someone here want to share an EGT log?

I logged AFR in my log, its "lambda probes actual probe 1 bank 1/2"

Sure I'll include EGT next time I log.

[abamfo]

Detonation city yo. This thread makes no sense... you gave up an EPL tune (from a company that would have been willing to do a custom tune for you had you spoke with Tony about it if you could go to their place) and decided to hack it with a CW and some other shit, which won't be customized just to get what... more timing and a fully closed bypass valve to maintain boost. You do know that the ECU can be tuned to do just that and in a much safer way than your bullshit 6-10 degree worth of timing pull crap you have going on now, right? Dude, no offense, but there's only so much you can do if you want power. Trying to cheat it and lean it out and bump timing to get that last little bit of power is just asking for problems. Also, remember that the ECU can only do so much to safeguard the engine. The thing is, you're having a constant correction issue with timing, so detonation is actually happening and continuing to happen in order to call for those corrections. Remember that the ECU cannot correct without an event happening and the more that shit happens, the more you're causing damage. Running some hacked tune and saying "oh, the corrections are keeping it safe because it's dialing back timing" is NOT keeping anything safe. You need a tune that'll maintain 0 corrections while also performing and in "some" conditions and if needed correcting values like 2-4 degrees max and for maybe one to two cells in the logs... not constant shit like you're seeing. What you've got there buddy is a ticking timebomb. Good job.

I agree with this but he does a Revo tune he has already paid for and can use the CW unit on it easily when he gets it flashed. He is also a manual, so running a CW won't have the DSG shifting issues which we do. It's actually quite a good idea I think but the CW on OEM is detonating so much so that you would worry about eventual piston damage if you kept that setup. That being said, from my experience with this, the Revo tune ran lower timing and enriched to 10 AFR with the higher EGTs seen on a dual pulley setup whereas APR doesn't seem to.

[SwankP3RF3ct10n]

lol so much hate. I have my reasons for why I did not pursue custom tuning with EPL. The current setup is merely temporary, the ECU is successfully pulling timing protecting the engine from detonation. Mike did mention the only input for the ECU to pull timing is the knock sensor, but it appears something else is in play in that calculation. If it is detonation or not I'll have a look at the plugs and cylinders tops this weekend. Either way this is a learning experience and if the motor blows its just an excuse to rebuild it stronger. Build, race, break, fix, repeat... its what I enjoy.



Haha exactly what I would do.

As long as you're clear on that, then go kill it. Just be well aware that unless a detonation even is actually happening, timing pull won't likely happen, unless IAT calculations are being done to back off some timing "just in case". However, given how much timing is actually being pulled, you are definitely seeing detonation and tons of it. Enjoy...

Oh and there's no hate... I couldn't care less who you use to tune your ECU, but that's my point. You're running an ECU that CAN BE tuned and you're out there fucking around with piggyback shit from the 90's. Gimme a break. Do it right or don't do it at all, that's all I'm saying. The best solution to tuning HAS ALWAYS been either a custom standalone or a flashable OEM ECU, nothing else.

[bhvrdr]

^^^^

Keep in mind these ECUs are not behaving at all like the Bosh MEx units we are used to seeing logs on, particularly with respect to the IKC system and fuel trimming. I can dig up a bunch of logs of stock cars running 91 octane showing solid 8-10 degree timing corrections. This is pretty much everyones car in California during the winter on the stock tune.

I would have totally agreed with you just a few years ago...and yeah i'd prefer to see 3-4 degrees correction. 0 correction at all times may indicate leaving some power on the table.

Mike

[fitzydude]

I tried a couple things tonight, aligned the TB and bypass valve with VCDS. Then switched to the 4-1 setting and relogged. The TB alignment did nothing for the accelerator % values. I also logged the EGT of bank 1 for abamfo. I'm not sure how relevant that will be since I'm getting some much bypass. Even on the 4-1 setting I'm getting fair amounts of timing being pulled, so now I'm wondering if the gas I've been buying from exxon is just shit. Looking back at the first log I took of just the OEM tune there were even a couple entries of 4-6 degrees of correction with the rest zeros, not nearly as bad as with the CW. What else could be causing timing to get pulled? I'm reading it could even be my spark plugs..

[abamfo]

Your specified charge air pressure is going down, I don't think that is right at all (Loe also mentioned this)... Speak to Murat as mine never did that.

You've got to remember you're trying to push 17 psi vs stock tune of 11 psi... You're timing table doesn't change, the map setting does, so it's trying to run high timing on 93 octane fuel with completely different boost levels. From my research, Audi try and run the highest timing table possible for the fuel for torque and fuel efficiency reasons. What timing were you running with the EPL dual pulley tune, was their knock detected?

My advice is get the Revo tune back on there, try 91 file first with CW and log log log

Your EGTs are so much lower than mine, albeit you don't have as much boost... really looking forward to seeing your results with Revo (just make sure you get SPS so you can switch tunes easily, it costs $200 I think but you can sell it)... I sneakily ended up getting a refund for my Revo tune because they voided my warranty by altering something in the ECU on day 1 and then I sold my SPS back for half price, so you'll be able to sell it

[fitzydude]

Your specified charge air pressure is going down, I don't think that is right at all (Loe also mentioned this)... Speak to Murat as mine never did that.

You've got to remember you're trying to push 17 psi vs stock tune of 11 psi... You're timing table doesn't change, the map setting does, so it's trying to run high timing on 93 octane fuel with completely different boost levels. From my research, Audi try and run the highest timing table possible for the fuel for torque and fuel efficiency reasons. What timing were you running with the EPL dual pulley tune, was their knock detected?

My advice is get the Revo tune back on there, try 91 file first with CW and log log log

Your EGTs are so much lower than mine, albeit you don't have as much boost... really looking forward to seeing your results with Revo (just make sure you get SPS so you can switch tunes easily, it costs $200 I think but you can sell it)... I sneakily ended up getting a refund for my Revo tune because they voided my warranty by altering something in the ECU on day 1 and then I sold my SPS back for half price, so you'll be able to sell it

The specified looks about the same really and looks in line for the OEM tune. The CW isn't manipulating the actual boost calculation as much on the 4-1 setting. Loe did mention it was interesting the actual was slightly over the specified with the bypass valve open. I just think the dual pulley setup creates so much boost the bpv can't keep up with the rapidly increasing amount of boost.

Here is a log from my EPL stage 2 tune when I was single pulley:


There is little bit of correction at high RPM, but nothing too crazy. I'm still running the OEM plugs at the factory 0.032 gap. I'll install the 1 step colder plugs this weekend and log again. I'll also be sure to fill up at a different gas station next time around. I have a Revo SPS that is just collecting dust on the shelf right now, these results are just making me want to take a day off a little sooner for a trip to Austin, but I don't have more vacation time until the beginning of the year! And thank you for the input.

-Alex

[abamfo]

The specified looks about the same really and looks in line for the OEM tune. The CW isn't manipulating the actual boost calculation as much on the 4-1 setting. Loe did mention it was interesting the actual was slightly over the specified with the bypass valve open. I just think the dual pulley setup creates so much boost the bpv can't keep up with the rapidly increasing amount of boost.

Here is a log from my EPL stage 2 tune when I was single pulley:


There is little bit of correction at high RPM, but nothing too crazy. I'm still running the OEM plugs at the factory 0.032 gap. I'll install the 1 step colder plugs this weekend and log again. I'll also be sure to fill up at a different gas station next time around. I have a Revo SPS that is just collecting dust on the shelf right now, these results are just making me want to take a day off a little sooner for a trip to Austin, but I don't have more vacation time until the beginning of the year! And thank you for the input.

-Alex

You know, Alex, for US$1300 you could get the APR Stage 2 file using the PowerPlay Program instead (if you have access to a dealer in close proximity). You have already purchased a Revo tune and can't return it, so it's a lot cheaper than normal and you don't install the pulley/belt just use the authorisation code. Add to that there is sufficient headroom in the APR requested manifold pressure for your dual pulley setup (it requested 2299.97 hPa when WOT in 3rd gear regardless of the actual pressure), so no need to run a CW at all, you could return it and get US$400 to use to pay for it. This is just a thought as I did this recently and can't imagine you want to run your OEM file with that amount of detonation for the next two months!
https://www.goapr.com/news/2012/10/3...si-power-play/

The timing in your Stage II file looks similar to what I see on the APR Stage II file but you are seeing a little more timing being pulled than me. There is a book I am reading at the moment called "How to tune and modify automotive engine management systems" by Jeff Hartman and he recommends that electrode gaps be less than 0.029" for all forced induction engines. As many others recommend, regap to 0.028" and then see how it goes. Also I think the jury is still out on whether colder plugs are necessary for these levels of boost, especially given that you're going into winter and only running the 179mm crank pulley. Loe and others are probable better placed to comment on this. The NGK 8 heat range is actually one step colder than the Bosch 5 heat range which came stock on your car, so the 9 is actually 2 heat ranges colder than the original Bosch plugs. I think you should re-gap your current plug in spark hole 2 as a test and see if it makes any difference but I suspect it won't as you are seeing huge amounts of knock. Buy some E85! I actually bought some E98 yesterday and going to blend it and see what timing the APR Stage 2 file hits with more forgiving fuel.

Also remember that running colder plugs makes them even more prone to fouling, which is fine if you do plenty of high speed / freeway driving but if you do lots of city driving then it may cause issues

[fitzydude]

You know, Alex, for US$1300 you could get the APR Stage 2 file using the PowerPlay Program instead (if you have access to a dealer in close proximity). You have already purchased a Revo tune and can't return it, so it's a lot cheaper than normal and you don't install the pulley/belt just use the authorisation code. Add to that there is sufficient headroom in the APR requested manifold pressure for your dual pulley setup (it requested 2299.97 hPa when WOT in 3rd gear regardless of the actual pressure), so no need to run a CW at all, you could return it and get US$400 to use to pay for it. This is just a thought as I did this recently and can't imagine you want to run your OEM file with that amount of detonation for the next two months!
https://www.goapr.com/news/2012/10/3...si-power-play/

The timing in your Stage II file looks similar to what I see on the APR Stage II file but you are seeing a little more timing being pulled than me. There is a book I am reading at the moment called "How to tune and modify automotive engine management systems" by Jeff Hartman and he recommends that electrode gaps be less than 0.029" for all forced induction engines. As many others recommend, regap to 0.028" and then see how it goes. Also I think the jury is still out on whether colder plugs are necessary for these levels of boost, especially given that you're going into winter and only running the 179mm crank pulley. Loe and others are probable better placed to comment on this. The NGK 8 heat range is actually one step colder than the Bosch 5 heat range which came stock on your car, so the 9 is actually 2 heat ranges colder than the original Bosch plugs. I think you should re-gap your current plug in spark hole 2 as a test and see if it makes any difference but I suspect it won't as you are seeing huge amounts of knock. Buy some E85! I actually bought some E98 yesterday and going to blend it and see what timing the APR Stage 2 file hits with more forgiving fuel.

Also remember that running colder plugs makes them even more prone to fouling, which is fine if you do plenty of high speed / freeway driving but if you do lots of city driving then it may cause issues

Yeah thanks for the advice, I am really pretty close to jumping to Apr or Giac. It would be much less of a pain in my ass. If I can't resolve the timing issues with plugs and different gas I might think about returning the box, we'll see.

[whiped]

Did a few pulls while adjusting my CW.

Max EGT on bank 1 I saw was 960c

[abamfo]

Did a few pulls while adjusting my CW.

Max EGT on bank 1 I saw was 960c

Thanks for your numbers on this, I might add it to the other thread so we can try and gather figures from multiple people... what are you running, jthe CTS pulley with a Stasis tune + CW??

[abamfo]

Yeah thanks for the advice, I am really pretty close to jumping to Apr or Giac. It would be much less of a pain in my ass. If I can't resolve the timing issues with plugs and different gas I might think about returning the box, we'll see.

Do you have access to E85?? I reckon you would be making some pretty decent power on that stock tune with the E30 or something but you should check to make sure that the car is runing an air-fuel ratio of 11-12 under WOT

Loe, given your experience, what would you say is the maximum ethanol percentage Alex or I could run with his dual pulley ratio??

[Loe]

On a stock ECU, I wouldn't go beyond E25. of course, log to see if it hits the OEM lambda targets or slightly lower, but it should not be higher. If it's higher, than reduce the ethanol content. I don't recall what the OEM lambda targets are, so you'll have to do some research. Remember that you want to meet the same lambda values in VCDS even with ethanol, for example:

.85 lambda = approx 12.50:1 AFR on straight gas
.85 lambda = approx 8.30:1 AFR on E85 gas
.85 lambda = approx 11.45:1 AFR on E25 gas

[abamfo]

Didn't even think about the stoichiometry of gas vs. ethanol... I'm currently running E20 on the APR 93 file, I'll make sure I stay under E25 then, cheers

[abamfo]

Alex, did you do anymore logging with new plugs / lower gap / e85?? Interested in knowing how your knock changes

Been running E20 all week with the APR tune without any AFR issues, hitting all lambda requests, but not sure the car/tune likes it that much

[fitzydude]

Tonight the new plugs will go in and I'll do a relog on the 4-1 setting. Then a fresh tank of 93 from a different station and relog. Then my last resort with be adding 3-4 gallons of E85 and relog. If timing is still getting pulled then, maybe just assume the OEM file doesn't like the CW with the dual pulley setup. The I'll remove it and wait for a Revo reflash or see if Apr/Giac is having a sale. Or maybe 034 might have something out soon.

[14S4GWM]

Tonight the new plugs will go in and I'll do a relog on the 4-1 setting. Then a fresh tank of 93 from a different station and relog. Then my last resort with be adding 3-4 gallons of E85 and relog. If timing is still getting pulled then, maybe just assume the OEM file doesn't like the CW with the dual pulley setup. The I'll remove it and wait for a Revo reflash or see if Apr/Giac is having a sale. Or maybe 034 might have something out soon.

EPL is having a killer sale right now

[fitzydude]

EPL is having a killer sale right now

I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole.

[14S4GWM]

I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole.

Why