Got cracking on the guides

[S4Bennett]

Pun intended!

2004 S4 w/ 140590mi.

[Nollywood]

Audi's modern day nightmare.

[kevinye77137]

Any chain rattles on start up? Warm start?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Audizine mobile app

[S4Bennett]

Limited (most times during cold start, never on hot start) but cold start rattle could be confused with the intake manifold flap rattle.

There would be sometimes several months where I didn't drive the car. Unhibetnating it included unplugging the injectors and turning it over to build oil pressure.

[0396]

Sorry to hear, my 2004 S4 just turned 107k...I'm not looking forward to that "day" .
Are you having a shop perform or are you talented to perform yourself. Either way, best .

[S4Bennett]

DIY project, which currently seems like a lot of seals and gaskets thus far. I'm going as deep as the valve stem seals and looking at the cylinder walls while the heads are off. I have the Bentley manual and print the pages as needed for while I'm working knuckle deep in oil.
Something a lot of the DIY's don't mention is the amount of oil spillage on the floor. Cheese and crackers there's a heap of it every layer you open.

[neilpaku]

Early stage failure : ) Mine was completely gone, and turned into a plastic paste in the bottom of the pan. Engine still ran though - I just told people it had a lumpy cam ; )
I just reinstalled the engine back in the car tonight - not too bad without help - took me about an hour fiddling round with jacks and such (just to get it sitting in there. I still have to connect everything up)

[0396]

All you folks who go the route of DIY, You Da Man- talented...wish had the courage for this.

[GOR720]

Did this job on my car, nightmare lol but the main problem for the rattle in my case was that the cam adjuster on the drivers side, it had the problem described by jhm so
i bought their solution and it worked flawlessly
https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catal...2l-p-2314.html
and I changed all the guides and tensors because why not, the motor was out already.

[0396]

GOR720
Your another brave individual, can you please post the milage of your Audi when this concern arise?
Thanks

[Gosser]

Nice to see people DIYing this. Lots just sell and never look back. Good luck!

[chain_slappins4]

i fell inlove with my S the first time I drove it... it been a nightmare of a ride, but well worth it in the end....

My S used to tap, now it just ticks!!!!

[GOR720]

GOR720
Your another brave individual, can you please post the milage of your Audi when this concern arise?
Thanks

93,854
It really made the sound 2 times, the first day I heard it on the startup for about 3 seconds in the way back from work and the second day on startup while I was moving it to it's chamber to be fixed (a friends local shop where tools were at my disposal), I really did not waste time with it, but to be honest at the time I did not realize what a big project it was.

[Hooblah]

Doing this in the near future. I noticed that nobody changes the chains when they do this job. Why is that? Is there a set interval at which they need doing?

[GOR720]

At least my chains were in perfect condition and did not require changing, but each case is different, they hold up good from what I know and as long as they are well lubricated they'll last the lifetime of the car

[Hooblah]

Ah you see, that's where you're incorrect.
Chains stretch over time, so they might look good but your timing can be out due to this.

[0396]

Ah you see, that's where you're incorrect.
Chains stretch over time, so they might look good but your timing can be out due to this.

I've always wondered about the reasons why most if not all the timing service done doesn't include the chain. When I talk to my Porsche friends about this, they mentioned that they change the two chains when they do a engine build. Maybe the Audi engine has a big variance between the valve and pistons..vs a target of. 04 for a air cool Porsche. Any thoughts?

[badger.]

Ah you see, that's where you're incorrect.
Chains stretch over time, so they might look good but your timing can be out due to this.

source?

[stevemiller333]

Early stage failure : ) Mine was completely gone, and turned into a plastic paste in the bottom of the pan. Engine still ran though - I just told people it had a lumpy cam ; )
I just reinstalled the engine back in the car tonight - not too bad without help - took me about an hour fiddling round with jacks and such (just to get it sitting in there. I still have to connect everything up)

You have it in already? I wanted to come over and have a look.

[neilpaku]

Well, it doesn't have the front on it so it's still fairly visible : ). I forgot to tie up the O2 sensor wires so I'm still lying on my back sorting that out. But making progress - it's hard when the memory is 18 months old and I can't remember where everything went but it's slowly falling into place. I ordered a new boot assembly for the front of the driveshaft, and new boots for the front half-shaft which has held up finishing up underneath, but the up-top wiring is moving along ok.
Come on round and take a look. It's now competing for space with a small bulldozer I'm also working on : ) but I have to finish up the car or I'll be wife-less....

[Hooblah]

source?

Lol source. It's called an education. I studied engineering.

[badger.]

Lol source. It's called an education. I studied engineering.

lol great want a cookie? I did too and work full time as an engineer...

I am asking specifically about the chains on the BHF. I've not seen one case where the chains were stretched. I've seen them damaged and obviously need replaced when a tensioner has totally failed, but in the (most common) case of just a tensioner or two cracked but still in place, there has been no evidence of the chain getting stretched any appreciable amount that I personally have seen... that is what I am looking for a "source" on. Not saying it has never happened, but that I've not read anything about it. I was hoping you had a thread or experience that would illustrate it. No need to be a fuckwit and tout your irrelevant "studies".

[GOR720]

Ah you see, that's where you're incorrect.
Chains stretch over time, so they might look good but your timing can be out due to this.

As I said, mine were in perfect condition. Each case is different.

[Hooblah]

Noones being a fuckwit. If you're an engineer then you should know this, even at a very basic level.
To my knowledge there are no threads or evidence on chain stretch, that's not to say that they don't stretch. I have no evidence of this, but my education tells me that they will be stretched to some degree. Even a mil or two will put your timing slightly out but you wouldn't be able to physically see this unless you measured the chains or put them side-by-side. As far as I'm aware nobody has done this to date, which is why there is no mention of it anywhere.
A service manual with tolerance specs would be ideal, along with someone who can measure theirs while they're out and/or compare their old ones to their new ones.

[2004B6S4]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6G...ew?usp=sharing

the one on the left has 150k miles on it, the one on the right is brand new. Obviously I don't have any fancy precision measuring equipment like the engineers would probably prefer, but just by eyeballing it they look identical.

[REVOofRustler]

Even if your chains are stretched, you'll negate any timing issues by going through the full re-timing procedure. Coming from dirtbikes, you always want to change your sprockets and chain at the same time because they wear into each other. If you put a new chain on old sprockets, you might be doing more harm than you are good. At 173k, my chains looked fine, as did all the sprockets so I left those all alone with the exception of the cam adjusters.

[Hooblah]

Looks fine to me :)

Revo you are correct. I was going to mention that.

[S4Bennett]

Took me awhile between trying to source valve train components and a machine shop to install new valves and guides before I could get back to pulling apart the next layer. Not too bad with so many miles on the motor. Bank 2 Adjuster -

[neilpaku]

That one looks ok

[Coachoh]

That one looks ok

Where abouts from Rochester? I'm in Webster.

Anyways - doing this job hopefully this weekend, just picked up a 05 with a recently replaced chain off by a tooth - of course. Can't wait to get this over with and enjoy the car.

[Hooblah]

How worn were the valve guides? I'll be doing the stem seals, but wondering if it's worth removing the heads and replacing them as well?

[neilpaku]

Pittsford. Actually just started the car after being apart for 18 months. Runs beautifully and there's zero smoke out of the tailpipe or leaks that I can see (yet... I suspect the passenger valve cover might leak as the rear screw couldn't quite make torque - I should have put a helicoil in it but didn't...hopefully the silicon has cured enough to stick)
Had about 15s of clatter before the oil pumped up to the top and the clatter stopped. Warm start has zero rattle. I'm waiting to pick up a new battery so I can check the cold start for rattle.
This engine has had:
- new rings and hone
- new valve guides and seals
- timing chain guides etc.
- new oil check valves although it looked like the old ones were holding up
- new pipes and seals etc. everywhere
- pre-cats gutted
- new water pump. Kept starter, alternator, ac compressor, and power steering pump

Car also got a new 23# single mass clutch, all new synchros in the gearbox, new pipework to the steering, new front wheel bearings (might need to swap out the rusty old brake rotors). It was missing some covers etc. so there's a new passenger radiator scoop, rear underbody cover, all top engine covers, ashtray (brackets for screws missing).

Before first start, I checked the throttle body adaptation. Showed error until I added a jumper battery to make voltage and then it was good. Steering needs adaptation, and probably a bunch of other things.
What I'm not getting are any codes for timing etc. which is the main part.

I have a couple of videos to get up on youface so you can hear the rattle then the smooth. Made the wife start it so that if it all went wrong it would be her fault : ) Her second move was to dial in a radio station....

[neilpaku]

Links to videos.
First start - did 4 x 15s winding over on the starter to pump up the oil but it wasn't even close to loading up the top end as the engine ran for probably 15s before the oil pumped up to the timing components:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhpnopr-hwU

After running for a couple of minutes and idled down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uhIWHWMNto

I'm pretty happy with how this turned out, at least for the start up. Once it's on the road, I'll check for oil consumption, mpg, gearshifts, etc. 18 month-old gas in the tank...

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Noones being a fuckwit. If you're an engineer then you should know this, even at a very basic level.
To my knowledge there are no threads or evidence on chain stretch, that's not to say that they don't stretch. I have no evidence of this, but my education tells me that they will be stretched to some degree. Even a mil or two will put your timing slightly out but you wouldn't be able to physically see this unless you measured the chains or put them side-by-side. As far as I'm aware nobody has done this to date, which is why there is no mention of it anywhere.
A service manual with tolerance specs would be ideal, along with someone who can measure theirs while they're out and/or compare their old ones to their new ones.

With all due respect, your viewpoint is a picture perfect example of an engineer becoming so absorbed in theory so as to completely miss reality.

While chains can certainly stretch over time, you do realize that there ARE tensioners in the system right ?

You'll also note that there have been little to no documented examples of these engines skipping timing in the absence of either a guide breaking or an adjuster failing.

So what does that tell us...?

[Hooblah]

That tells us that it isn't an issue. I'm not sure about timing skipping as I haven't looked into it.
The slack from a stretched chain can be taken up by the tensioners, but how much slack is allowed before the timing is out? I'm not starting am argument, just curious to find out.

[Dirtracer603]

Tensioners do nothing for a wore/'stretched' chain but pick up the slack. Regardless of tensioners, an excessively worn chain can cause the cam & crankshafts to be out of time to the point you lose performance/throw engine codes. From what I understand it's very uncommon on these engines though.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Audizine mobile app

[0396]

First, I'm just expressing my .02 cents on the stretching of timing chains from the Porsche world.
With the Porsche engines, to my knowledge. The piston to valve allowance is something like a min of 7 thousands. On most if not high mileage builds, it common sense to replace the timing chains- especially if you want the max HP & TQ and a safe zone for those missed shifts in the higher RPM ( 6- 8k) range.
Yes, they have hydraulic adjuster too. But at the higher range, one risk a motor rebuild of say 15- 30k .
On our Audi, I simply don't think we - at least I don't, drive at that range. When the time comes, I'm simply replacing the majority of the parts, minus the timing chain...yes, they will stretch and how much clearance does the V8 have? I don't know as its not my hobby vs the Porsche cars.. Enjoy your week.

[S4Bennett]

I didn't get the right tensioner seals so this is as far as I got.

The upper center guide has an o-ring that squeezes into a blind hole. Really tight squeeze. I had ease it in with a small deadblow after lubing it.

[allroadmark]

a chain will stretch most when it is new, i'm sure audi engineers allowed for this.

[MG15]

Have you taken a look at the torque converter? I spoke with someone recently who said that this is a good time to service while the motor and transmission are apart.