Element's Stage 3+ Tial 605 Build Thread

[ElementR]

Never seem to have enough time to devote to this as I'm too busy wrench and taking care of family life, but here's what I've accomplished over the last couple years...

I picked up the car with the following mods back in October 2014. Long story short, I had wanted a B5 S4 since I remember seeing my first one (a friend of a neighbors a few doors down) in silver back in 2001. I was wrenching on my '91 fox body mustang back in those days and recall how clean and elegant the car looked yet equipped with such a capable powertrain. Fast forward to October 2014... I had just finished a turbo upgrade along with shimming the sleeves on my block in my '07 Volvo S60R which serves as my DD. I was struggling to get the car running (later found it was the tuner's fault after much frustration on my end) and needed to make a tough decision with a fully built twin turbo'd '93 Cobra (still needing some final tuning) and an amazing 600 rwhp '04 Mystichrome Cobra (show car like and perfectly driveable) sitting in my garage...and yet Michigan Winter quickly approaching. So, I made the tough decision to sell the '04 Cobra and pick-up an S4 like I always wanted since 2001. I came across just the right car on the forums. Turns out the guy (also named Andy like me) was located in Northern Ohio. I chatted and mentioned my '04 Cobra was up for sale but would likely go quick. I think it was up for 24 hours and I was getting all kinds of calls and emails. A guy (coincidentally also named Andy) called me acting very seriously interested. He wanted to see it right away. A couple days later and we struck a deal. Wouldn't you know - his name was also Andy and he lived in Northern Ohio. This was sounding rather serendipitous. I ended up driving the Cobra down to meet the new owner and he then drove me to the S4 so that I could take it back home to Michigan. So, three Andy's traded cars and some cash that day and my S4 trails began.

So, here's what I brought home...

2001 Silver S4 Black interior approx 134xxx miles 6mt 475awhp 485awtq

Vast intake with hitachi MAF
Forge diverter valves
Vast bi pipes tapped for meth
Tial s605 turbo kit
AMW catch can
Vast tune and fueling kit (Tuned for 93/ not meth dependent 25 psi)
JHM front mount intercooler
Aquamist HFS-3
3" stainless down pipes no cats
custom stainless 3" cat back (mild tone - not loud)
Zeitronix wide band
Transmission:
South bend stage 3 endurace clutch with Fidanza SM LW flywheel
JHM Drivetrain stabilizer
JHM Short shifter
JHM weighted shift linkage
JHM Delrin linkage bushing
JHM Carbon lined syncros
Updated OEM Audi 1-2 shift collar
JHM Upgraded centering spring
Stainless braided clutch slave line
Steel clutch slave cylinder
Suspension:
St Coilovers
Hotchkis F R swaybars
18" RS4 matte black replica wheels with nitto invos (good tread remaining)

I drove the car as is for a couple weeks and meanwhile figured out the tune was to blame for my Volvo and had the tuner send me a tune that wasn't flooding out my engine at start-up... then my Volvo again became my DD. I still drove the S4, but more on an occasional basis. During that time, I started to acquire some pieces to refresh the interior like door handle pulls, steering column trim, piano black interior trim pieces, new floor mats, MP3/iPod integration, etc. ECS Tuning quickly became my new toy store. I also added a new set of shoes (Goodyear Eagle F1's).

Some miles later, I started to notice a coolant leak. Turns out the aux pump was to blame so I replaced it with a new pump and hoses.

I was also aware that engine was slowly leaking oil (likely from cam seals and valve cover gaskets), but figured I would get to that eventually. After installing a magnetic oil drain plug, I was surprised to find metal particles all over the plug during the next oil change. I figured the engine was on borrowed time, but would get to that eventually. Well, that time came sooner than later as in the Fall of 2015, the clutch decided to give up. I could hardly give the engine any load without slippage. So, I parked the car for the Winter and decided to start gathering parts for an engine build... I mean, if the clutch is coming out, might as well do and engine build at the same time, right? :)

Next up, list of parts purchased and progression of engine build....

[ElementR]

[ElementR]

Engine Build:
* RPM H-Beam Rods
* Mahle Powerpack pistons & rings
* 034 Motorsports coated Main & Rod bearings
* ARP Main Studs
* Polished/Mic'd OEM Crank
* 81.5mm bore OEM block
* Balanced Rotating Assembly
* New OEM Oil Pump
* OEM 2.7L Heads
- Cleaned, New guides and seals installed, Performance Valve job
- Full Supertech Valvetrain (valves, springs, retainers)
* OEM 2.7L Cams
* OEM Cam Tensioners with new pads
* New OEM Water Pump
* JHM Timing Belt Kit
* Eurospec non-strech cylinder head bolts
* New accesory belt tensioner
* New accesory belt
* New Bosch 02 sensors
* All new gaskets, seals, bolts, etc
* Engine Fully Blueprinted and assembled by me
* AMD Stage 3+ Clutch Kit
* New Fidanza flywheel friction surface
* New steel clutch slave cylinder
* JHM cross rod

[ElementR]

Re-used fueling, turbos (zero shaft play), turbo plumbing, FMIC, exhaust and upgraded trans from original purchase. Still on VAST tune as well which is running solid... may exploit my tuner for future tweaks.

[ElementR]

Here are some pics...





Clearanced oil pump for ARP main studs

[ElementR]

[ElementR]

[ElementR]

[ElementR]

Here was the tired engine before and after I pulled it...

[ElementR]

A lot of credit to those on the forum who helped me along the way as well as the guys at ECS Tuning, 034 Motorsports, JHM and others who supplied all the parts. I had a bit of an issue with a local machine shop who got half way through machining and said he couldn't finish it... so I had to find another shop (ultimately 2 since one handled the block and rotating assembly balancing while the other took care of the heads). And not to forget my wife and three kids who often found me in the garage... and many late nights when they were sleeping as well.

[ElementR]

At this point, the car is running solidly. I have about 100 miles on it now. I have an intermittent P0150 which I also had prior to the engine rebuild so I'm guessing something in the O2 wiring harness is to blame as it appears and then disappears after a couple/few key cycles. I have Lucas break in oil in the engine which I plan to run for 500 miles at which point I'll switch over to my go to oil for the car - Liqui Moly 5W-40. At that point I plan to also address the one leak (it's small but annoying) that I have and that's the driver side turbo oil drain line connection to the oil pan. I used a new O-ring, but for some reason it still leaks. I even added a bunch of RTV but no luck so something is off and I need to inspect it closer. So far I'm going easy on the set-up - never make more than 5 psi and most try to stay out of boost. I want to give it 500 miles before I get into it.

[ElementR]

Future plans for the car include enjoying it of course, installing the 17Z Front Brake kit I picked up last year, hooking up the MP3/iPod interface and some cosmetic things here and there.

[PwrWgn]

Good shit man. Keep it up

[Mark00s4]

very cool build. im building a similar one. im also using mahle 81.5 pistons. 605's
i noticed the the valve reliefs are in different locatins; one up,two down. is there a reason for that? i haven't installed mine yet ,but i was under the impression that the reliefs faced the intake. i could be totally wrong.

[ElementR]

Wow - I can't believe I never caught that!

[ElementR]

I seriously can't believe that there's been no contact. I literally f$!ked up three of the pistons. I was going by the arrows on the piston crowns which are correct, but I flip flopped the pistons on either side of the engine. FML!

[ElementR]

Now I have to wonder if I have had any contact. Oh for christ sake. I will say that the car runs like a champ.

[Mark00s4]

i would think if there was contact you would know. it could because it's a dished lower compression piston.
i have no arrows on my pistons. stock oem pistons have dual cut outs.i could be totally wrong about how the pistons should be installed.but its good to know that they can be installed both ways without catastrophic damage!lol. hopefully someone can chime in about it.

[ElementR]

I seriously want to go crawl under a rock right now. I cannot believe I did this... oh wait, working late every night until 1 or even 2 AM sometimes to get this together plus all my other responsibilities with wife and three kids and lack of sleep - yes this adds up. Anyway, I'm seriously heartbroken right now. I know what needs to be done, but time is not on my side and winter is fast approaching. I'm losing my drive with this stuff as well.

So, basically - need to pull front end, disconnect axles and driveshaft, disconnect exhaust, pull engine + trans, disconnect trans, pull intake, wiring, fuel system, etc, pull front accessories, timing belt, pull vc's and heads, pull oil pan, pull oil pump, pull piston/rod combos 1 and 2 and swap with 4 and 5 keeping piston rings with cylinders not pistons, inspect intake valves and probably need to replace 4 of them (middle one on each of cylinders 1, 2, 4 and 5) since they are likely bent. Then reassemble. I should be able to re-use everything but the gaskets, seals and damaged valves. God this pisses me off to no end.

I guess it could be worse and seriously thanks for pointing this out.

[ElementR]

i would think if there was contact you would know. it could because it's a dished lower compression piston.
i have no arrows on my pistons. stock oem pistons have dual cut outs.i could be totally wrong about how the pistons should be installed.but its good to know that they can be installed both ways without catastrophic damage!lol. hopefully someone can chime in about it.

The reliefs are certainly there for a reason. I have to believe there has been some level of contact. Also note that I have not revved the car out or boosted heavily yet. I've been taking it easy as I break in the engine. I seriously feel sick right now...

[ElementR]

Even JE pistons have reliefs on top and bottom...



- - - Updated - - -

Seriously Mahle - WTF?!

[ElementR]

Question for all those engine savvy people... should I run a flex hone through the bores to brake the glaze or just swap the pistons/rings to their respective bores? Piston to wall clearances and ring gaps were nearly identical between bores. I have all clearances recorded. I've only run this engine for about 100 miles.

[Mark00s4]

i feel your pain. I've been there late at night no sleep does funny things. the je pistons have both reliefs top and bottom. i would think the middle intake valve would be the valve that would make contact.
maybe you can look into the bores with a telescopic camera?

[ElementR]

I agree. I have such a camera but it's a Harbor Freight camera and of course even though it's no more than a year old, it already doesn't work! Even changed the batteries. Won't even power on.

[ElementR]

Just ordered a new borescope from Amazon. Will be here Monday thanks to Prime...

https://www.amazon.com/Crenova-Megap...478971260&sr=1

For now, I'm not going to run the car any more.

[ElementR]

Question for all those engine savvy people... should I run a flex hone through the bores to brake the glaze or just swap the pistons/rings to their respective bores? Piston to wall clearances and ring gaps were nearly identical between bores. I have all clearances recorded. I've only run this engine for about 100 miles.

Actually, it would be easier for me to swap the rings over. That way the rings will stay with the cylinder and not the piston. I will re-check gaps, but should be basically identical piston to piston from my measurements.

[Zba]

Save yourself all of this drama and to a leak down test or pay to have one done. That will tell you definitively if you have bent valves or not.

[ElementR]

I've thought the same and do have a leak down tester, but first want to get the inspection camera in there. If there's any evidence of contact, the engine is coming out. If there's not, I'm still concerned that higher rev's may lead to some. Would love to have some reassurance that it won't happen...believe me, I'm open to the option of not pulling this. Judging by the weather forecast here, I need to get at it starting tomorrow if I do need to pull the engine so I'll be borrowing an inspection camera tomorrow and going from there.

[Zba]

If there are no signs of contact I doubt you would have contact in the higher RPM ranges especially with those supertech springs in there.

Obviously you're going to do what you're going to do and it sounds like you're going back in no matter what, but just my $.02 fwiw.

[ElementR]

Not necessarily. I'm not a fan of pulling this engine at all so if I can gain enough confidence, I may not do it. I appreciate the feedback. I'm short on time today, but just checked leakage on cylinder 2 with engine warm of course and got 4% so definitely a solid number. I still want to scope the bores tomorrow.

[Mark00s4]

hopefully all is good. im hoping someone that has some experience with installing mahle pistons chimes in

[flatironsS4]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you! I can relate to your sick feeling at the moment. When I did my 605 build on a stock block, my first drive revealed some strange clinking sound coming out of the trans. My first thought was I know for sure that it has plenty of fluid in it because I for sure drained it and FILLED IT FROM THE TOP PLUG when it was sitting on my garage floor. Long story short... I should have never touched that plug and the next day full engine and trans pull AGAIN to separate the trans case and move the reverse lever back into place so it was not bouncing off the gears anymore.
Live and learn hopefully you have no damage.

[Mark00s4]

keep this thread updated with the progress. don't let this little hiccup bum you out. you have a pretty build going on.
how do you like the amd3+ compared to the south bend st3 endurance?

[hibiscusS4]

Looks like some good progress in for updates!


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[LightningLou]

You can even start by doing a compression test as well to check for bent valves. Best of luck to you! I've had to do about 4 different engine pulls last year and finally got to a good spot where the car has been pretty solid... So don't feel too bad man. These cars really test your patience at times, but when everything works and you get to enjoy a nice drive after all your hard work, it all becomes worth it

[ElementR]

Well, the good news is that I just scoped all cylinders with the reliefs on the exhaust side (1,2,4 and 5) and none of the pistons show any evidence of contact. I'm not surprised as the car runs great.

Now the question is whether or not there are cases where there can be contact which I have not yet taken this engine to... higher load and higher rpm in particular.

I did a little reading on the S4 tech manual and they show a graph of the active window of timing advance for the engine and it's in the mid rpm band which I'm sure I've entered but also the high engine load case which I'm sure I have not entered. See page 8 here https://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audi/2....-SelfStudy.pdf

So the question now is if I load the engine up, will the valves crash once the chain tensioner advances the intake cam timing. From what I've read, the goal of advancing the timing is to take advantage of the exhaust gases leaving through the exhaust valve to help draw in intake air in a suction like manner. This would mean the intake valves open sooner such that it overlaps with the exhaust valves being open... that would likely coincide with when the piston is at TDC or very close to it... so my gut says to stay away from WOT right now.

Now of course if the above is true, then I could disconnect the cam tensioner solenoids and lose whatever benefit they provide. I suspect my tuner could even code them out so there was no check engine light thrown. Then the question becomes what am I throwing on the table by doing so and does that outweigh ripping the engine apart to swap the pistons or not.

Interested to hear feedback. Thanks.

[ElementR]

keep this thread updated with the progress. don't let this little hiccup bum you out. you have a pretty build going on.
how do you like the amd3+ compared to the south bend st3 endurance?

Thanks. It's still a little too early to know the clutch fully well. I'll report back once I've broken it in. The pedal is light. I have a Spec Stg3+ in my Volvo and mustang it's it's comparably heavier than the AMD - not too surprising considering the AMD uses an OEM pressure plate. The Volvo has a hydraulic slave whereas the mustang clutch actuation is all mechanical by the way.

I really don't like the engagement in this car (too high off the floor). South bend was the same. I'm going to see if I can adjust the pedal at some point. I would like it to engage closer to the floor.

[Mark00s4]

it looks like you are definitely doing your research. does the lower compression of the mahle pistons factor into piston to valve clearance?
i agree with you on the south bend engaging high. i have the sb 3 daily and its the same. im thinking about going with the amd.

[ElementR]

I don't know if the lower compression does much at all for P-V clearance. The valve reliefs are cut into the perimeter of the piston crown where there's a ridge so I suspect that ridge height is no different than the OEM piston at TDC. I think the variable valve timing may be the driver for the valve reliefs. I mean why else would they be there if I am not already crashing valves?

I'm not aware of any other users of these pistons aside from the 2.7L. AFAIK the 2.8L uses larger diameter pistons. If the same pistons went into multiple engines then it may be that the reliefs are there for other engines, but I'm not seeing that.

[ElementR]

Left a message for a guy at 034 that has been helpful in the past and shot a note to my tuner. No word back yet. I'm on the fence but leaning towards pulling it because I suspect no one will be able to give me the confidence I'm after. The weather here is perfect through Friday. No rain and highs in the mid 50's to lower 60's. A cold front is coming through this coming weekend. I have to do this in the driveway as my other two cars are occupying my garage space at the moment.

I think I can pull the front end and get the exhaust, engine/trans mounts and axles disconnected tonight. Perhaps a little optimistic, but I should at least be able to get close. Then tomorrow I can get the engine out and start tearing it down. My thought is to pull the alternator, starter, A/C comp, Engine Oil cooler, disconnect P/S line at rear of engine and to reservoir, remove coolant bottle, disconnect heater core connections and connections at front of engine, disconnect electrical connections/fuel injectors/fuel line/vacuum lines/02 sensors/EGT sensors, remove intake manifold, then my cherry picker and leveler to get the engine/trans up and out some distance, then disconnect the clutch slave fluid line and plug it (no way I'm pulling the slave again after my previous experience), disconnect trans elec connectors that I likely missed, remove downpipes so they don't hit the axles and pull engine/trans.

Then my thought is to insert the crank stop, and lock the cam gears at TDC, mark the timing belt with paint pen, compress tensioner and insert lock pin, remove timing belt, loosen coolant pipe at rear of heads, then remove the valve covers and remove each cylinder head with turbo/exhaust manifold connected (no need to disconnect). Then I can turn engine over, pull oil pans, oil pump should not need to come out, loosen rod caps, pull piston/rod assemblies 1/2/4/5 and swap accordingly and swap the rings so that they remain in the same bore, then reinstall. I know the tangs on the rods are said to be installed one way, but I really don't see why it matters so I'd rather not separate the pistons from the rods as the locks for the wrist pins are major PITA to R&R. So my plan would be to ignore that some of the rods will be facing the other way unless someone has a good explanation as to why it matters. The rod bearings are essentially still brand new so I'll see if there's any logic to keep them to the crank or rod based on appearance (any wear which may have started). That's basically it then reassemble. I think the biggest PITA will be dealing with cleaning all the RTV from the valve covers/heads and oil pan/block.

Open to feedback.