Stage 2 - Snout vs. Crank

[JD S4]

Question for consumers and tuners..

With new options available for using a crank instead of a snout pulley for a Stage 2 single pulley - what sort of impact do you forsee?

Example: stock snout + 194 pulley yields around 3.0 vs. 2.8 pulley ratio. I believe (believe, don't know) most Stage 2 tunes are catered for a certain ratio based on the tuners preferred/proprietary pulley (most in the 2.8 range). What are the impacts to the tune, safety, longevity, etc if you went with an off the shelf Stage 2 tune but went with a higher pulley ratio crank pulley vs. the lower snout pulley ratio..

Tuners and consumers chime in.. Is it as simple as more heat + more boost bled? Or will the .2 (or .5 or .1 or whatever) difference cause more positive/negative side effects than that?

Also - is a pulley ratio a pulley ratio? Would there be any perceived change to the curve / feel using one pulley vs. the other (snout vs. crank)..

Just tossing up some new discussions since the platform is expanding and more options are available.

[Loe]

Awesome thread!

some tuners may require proprietary snout pulley's. My preference would be to have crank pulley's only for the sake of more surface area to prevent belt slip.

[JD S4]

Awesome thread!

some tuners may require proprietary snout pulley's. My preference would be to have crank pulley's only for the sake of more surface area to prevent belt slip.

Mine too.. + Ease of install, eeking out a little more pulley ratio without stepping up to the 3.3+ range (iat contrrol) and of course getting rid of the OEM failure prone crank pulley.. Think we'll see this trend - especially if we see the prices of dampened and non-dampened cranks come down (right now it's $900 for dampened 194 from Fluidampr vs. ~$150 for the CTS kit)... But piece of mind replacing OEM is worth a lot to many.

[GRUMPY-S4]

Plus by replacing the Crank Pulley you do away with that OEM failure point. But... for warranty purposes... wont the Crank pulley be more obvious to the naked eye over the SC pulley?


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[jran76]

Like most things, there are probably several considerations. How many miles are on your car, dampened vs non-dampened vs stock crank, pulley ratios relative to the tune, belt slip, amount of work required to install, etc. I think everyone's situation is a little different, and so many different options/combinations, that there is not a good one size fits all answer.

In general, if I had a high milage car, I would definitely want to look into replacing the crank pulley. At the same time, if I only wanted to go stage 2, the SC pulley is a simple proven upgrade that provides good results. At that point, things like belt slip and the dampened vs. non-dampened argument aren't a concern.

Going with a higher ratio than intended for a given tune is just going to result in bypassing pressure/boost, and more heat which doesn't provide much of a benefit. I'd always recommend using a tune specific to your ratio (or combination of hardware).

If you are really looking for the most performance, I have no doubt there are advantages to upgrading the crank pulley. In terms of flexibility, belt slip, headroom, etc. Obviously that comes with some other considerations in terms of getting the right belt, possibly clearancing the block, cooling upgrades, and getting the tuning right.

Summary: If you are only looking to go stage 2 and want to keep it simple, I'd probably go the SC pulley route unless you have a higher milage car. If you are looking for the most performance or flexibility in terms of future upgrades, the crank pulley is a good option.

[Lensch09]

Keep in mind that the larger the crank pulley you have, the faster you're also spinning everything else (idlers)



Loe is right on the surface area bit. In my opinion, I think a healthy balance between the two might be the best option, if not anything to reduce wear on the idler/tensioner.

-DL

[JD S4]

In my opinion, I think a healthy balance between the two might be the best option, if not anything to reduce wear on the idler/tensioner.

-DL

But anything more than a stock pulley + smaller snout pulley will give you ratios much higher than single pulley stage 2 software will accomodate, right? (requiring cooling + dual pulley tune)

[whiped]

But anything more than a stock pulley + smaller snout pulley will give you ratios much higher than single pulley stage 2 software will accomodate, right? (requiring cooling + dual pulley tune)

I wouldn't do anymore than a 194mm crank on stock cooling.

Read the first post of this thread: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...lopment-thread

It normally has the most up to date information.

Ultimately it comes down to what tuner you want to go with. Many of them require you to run their pulley.

[Lensch09]

But anything more than a stock pulley + smaller snout pulley will give you ratios much higher than single pulley stage 2 software will accomodate, right? (requiring cooling + dual pulley tune)

Potentially. Cooling is also a by-product of climate. Out here in the central valley for me, cooling is almost required at Stg I if you want to do multiple back to back pulls. On the East Coast, probably not as much. Keep in mind our ECUs will safegaurd us from getting too hot, and will pull timing back significantly as the IATs move up.

Majority of tunes (minus EPL, new GIAC, and a few others) have targets for timing, fueling, and boost. If any of those targets are out of specification, it either pulls timing, or reduces the boost (via bypass). That also being stated, I have heard it rumored that GIAC has the most aggressive targets (for AFR and timing) and therefore would be a best option if wanting to run a stage II tune on a DP car. My car (running GIAC STG II V2 with a 179 and a 57mm, intake/exhaust) dynoed at 397 whp on 98 octane at 034 Motorsports in 97+ ambient. An S5 running the same pulleys + Eurocode headers on 93 octane dynoed on the very same dyno, with an APR tune right around 355 whp with much lower ambients.

The biggest advantage of a DP setup on Stg II tuning is the torque curve...

-DL

[RyanJon]

Bet MRC tuning are sat shaking their heads while chuckling!

Their stage 2 has always been a bigger crank pully and had always offered higher bhp figures than pretty much everyone else while also being cheaper!

They save time as there is no need to put the car into the service position so keep costs down.

They've been using undampened cranks for many years now with no ill effects and there is no reports of idlers going bad from being over spun either

[JD S4]

Potentially. Cooling is also a by-product of climate. Out here in the central valley for me, cooling is almost required at Stg I if you want to do multiple back to back pulls. On the East Coast, probably not as much.

Majority of tunes (minus EPL, new GIAC, and a few others) have targets for timing, fueling, and boost. If any of those targets are out of specification, it either pulls timing, or reduces the boost (via bypass). That also being stated, I have heard it rumored that GIAC has the most aggressive targets (for AFR and timing) and therefore would be a best option if wanting to run a stage II tune on a DP car. My car (running GIAC STG II V2 with a 179 and a 57mm, intake/exhaust) dynoed at 397 whp on 98 octane at 034 Motorsports in 97+ ambient. An S5 running the same pulleys + Eurocode headers on 93 octane dynoed on the very same dyno, with an APR tune right around 355 whp with much lower ambients.

The biggest advantage of a DP setup on Stg II tuning is the torque curve...

-DL

You're now talking Dual Pulley... Which means dual pulley software.. Potentially fueling.. And cooling... This is more about the 2 ways to skin a cat for straight traditional Stage 2... I think the merits (and pulley ratios) are well documented for Dual Pulley.. Your points are all valid -- but all of the dual pulley guys are in here chiming in for dual pulley.. Some aren't interested in taking their car that far, etc..

[JD S4]

Bet MRC tuning are sat shaking their heads while chuckling!

Their stage 2 has always been a bigger crank pully and had always offered higher bhp figures than pretty much everyone else while also being cheaper!

They save time as there is no need to put the car into the service position so keep costs down.

They've been using undampened cranks for many years now with no ill effects and there is no reports of idlers going bad from being over spun either

Yeah but they eat beans and sliced deli ham and cheese for breakfast - so all chuckling is invalid at that point. (I spend ~10 weeks a years in London/Cambridge, love me some Brits).

Point made for sure. But those options have now floated cross the pond.

[jran76]

You're now talking Dual Pulley... Which means dual pulley software.. Potentially fueling.. And cooling... This is more about the 2 ways to skin a cat for straight traditional Stage 2... I think the merits (and pulley ratios) are well documented for Dual Pulley.. Your points are all valid -- but all of the dual pulley guys are in here chiming in for dual pulley.. Some aren't interested in taking their car that far, etc..

Yes. 179mm crank = 57.xx mm SC pulley. If you are only looking at "stage 2" tunes, you'd probably be better served with one or the other, and it may be best to decide on a tuner first since most have some requirements in terms of the hardware you use. I'd also probably recommend a cooling upgrade for stage 2. It makes such a big difference, and even more so when it's hot out (as Lensch said, some of that may be climate based).

[JD S4]

Yes. 179mm crank = 57.xx mm SC pulley. If you are only looking at "stage 2" tunes, you'd probably be better served with one or the other, and it may be best to decide on a tuner first since most have some requirements in terms of the hardware you use. I'd also probably recommend a cooling upgrade for stage 2. It makes such a big difference, and even more so when it's hot out (as Lensch said, some of that may be climate based).

The exact point of this thread.. *Not* a dual pulley thread..

Thanks for all of the comments / thoughts so far guys!

Keep them coming.

[jordon]

So glad you brought this up... the same idea had occured to me just last week, but I didn't have time to search for anything on it yet. Sub'd for info on this!

[Hofahome]

The exact point of this thread.. *Not* a dual pulley thread..

Thanks for all of the comments / thoughts so far guys!

Keep them coming.

Hey I sold your intake man. Had to buy a crib. Sorry.

Just kidding. I swear we will meet up and I will return it. I just flashed back to stock because my car requires an ECU update for a new breather valve. Hopefully it should help solve the idle issue. I could probably swing down this weekend. I'm actually impressed by how quick the car is running stock with dual pulley. If the car is running well then I'd let you take it for a spin to compare to your car.

[bhvrdr]

There are so many things to consider I think the advice would change based on a persons personal setup.

Starting out with just basic ratios you are looking at this... (thanks fluidamper)...




So now you are thinking how fast you feel comfortable spinning the supercharger. You're probably going to be thinking about:

1. Type of driving you will be doing. If I was going to be road coursing the car at high rpm for extended times I may go with added cooling and a more conservative max SC speed. If I was going to be mostly daily driving and want to have fun with some 1/4 mile records, perhaps i'd go big labowski all the way.

2. What redline you plan on running. Are you a B8.5 and plan on staying at 6400rpm or are you a MT and going full TCU tune to 7200rpm?

3. What tuner are you choosing? Do they require you to buy their proprietary SC pulley or do they allow a BYOP program?

4. What climate to you live in? If you are in the desert...well... that may have an impact right.

5. Do you want to spend money on cooling?


I'd consider each of these variables so you are not spending money twice.

Mike

[Loe]

I agree with Mike

If you don't do many 1/4mile times or road racing but like the occasional WOT run (like a 1, 2, or 3 gear WOT run or just extra passing power), I would go big w/ upgraded cooling. My 194mm performed just fine in mid 90's weather with proper cool down in between (meaning, don't do back-to-back WOT runs, give it like 5 mins of normal/sane cruising speeds to have IAT's drop).

[eurotic]

There are so many things to consider I think the advice would change based on a persons personal setup.

Starting out with just basic ratios you are looking at this... (thanks fluidamper)...




So now you are thinking how fast you feel comfortable spinning the supercharger. You're probably going to be thinking about:

1. Type of driving you will be doing. If I was going to be road coursing the car at high rpm for extended times I may go with added cooling and a more conservative max SC speed. If I was going to be mostly daily driving and want to have fun with some 1/4 mile records, perhaps i'd go big labowski all the way.

2. What redline you plan on running. Are you a B8.5 and plan on staying at 6400rpm or are you a MT and going full TCU tune to 7200rpm?

3. What tuner are you choosing? Do they require you to buy their proprietary SC pulley or do they allow a BYOP program?

4. What climate to you live in? If you are in the desert...well... that may have an impact right.

5. Do you want to spend money on cooling?


I'd consider each of these variables so you are not spending money twice.

Mike

I agree with Mike

If you don't do many 1/4mile times or road racing but like the occasional WOT run (like a 1, 2, or 3 gear WOT run or just extra passing power), I would go big w/ upgraded cooling. My 194mm performed just fine in mid 90's weather with proper cool down in between (meaning, don't do back-to-back WOT runs, give it like 5 mins of normal/sane cruising speeds to have IAT's drop).

A few questions:
@Mike and Loe, I am in Manitoba (North of North Dakota) with summer temps in the 30*C range and I autocross my car extensively and plan to do hotlaps at my local track (1.3 mile 9 turns) which is typically 7-10 laps including warmup and cool down. Is the concern mostly the heat or as I have seen posted, possibly traction issues?

As I have yet to tune my car (still waiting to see what APR brings to the table and I need to research dual pulley more), I am 6MT, will a tuner set a custom rev limiter? From my own logging my car will hit over 7350 RPM in first gear and I would really like to dial that back to 7000 knowing there may be overshoot. And at autocross there are a number of courses where I will hit the rev limiter and even be riding the limiter for a number of seconds.

@Loe, just to clarify that you mean running the 194 with the AWE pulley as well right?

I love the idea of lots of torque down low but it sounds like it can be problematic depending on the situation and goal one might have.


Shawn

[JD S4]

A few questions:
@Mike and Loe, I am in Manitoba (North of North Dakota) with summer temps in the 30*C range and I autocross my car extensively and plan to do hotlaps at my local track (1.3 mile 9 turns) which is typically 7-10 laps including warmup and cool down. Is the concern mostly the heat or as I have seen posted, possibly traction issues?

As I have yet to tune my car (still waiting to see what APR brings to the table and I need to research dual pulley more), I am 6MT, will a tuner set a custom rev limiter? From my own logging my car will hit over 7350 RPM in first gear and I would really like to dial that back to 7000 knowing there may be overshoot. And at autocross there are a number of courses where I will hit the rev limiter and even be riding the limiter for a number of seconds.

@Loe, just to clarify that you mean running the 194 with the AWE pulley as well right?

I love the idea of lots of torque down low but it sounds like it can be problematic depending on the situation and goal one might have.


Shawn

You'll need major cooling with 194/AWE and auto-x'ing.

[eurotic]

You'll need major cooling with 194/AWE and auto-x'ing.

More than one of the common off the shelf cooling solutions?

[JD S4]

More than one of the common off the shelf cooling solutions?

I assume the suggestion will be to "start there" and expect timing pull / boost bleed as your day goes long.
How are things up in The Peg!? I'm from Grand Forks - spent every weekend from 18-21 years old up your way ;-) still got some homies up there.

[eurotic]

I assume the suggestion will be to "start there" and expect timing pull / boost bleed as your day goes long.
How are things up in The Peg!? I'm from Grand Forks - spent every weekend from 18-21 years old up your way ;-) still got some homies up there.

I love my little city. Lots of people hate winter, especially because it lasts 6 months, but I enjoy quality time with quattro. 8-)

I guess I need to review all the cooling talk some more and start making notes.

[Tod]

Just to confirm. Ive been following the DP thread.

Im daily driving and do thr occasional wot run

I can run a DP with the crank being 194 with or with out the need of Cooling?

I don't autocross and ill maybe hit the quarter mile 2 or 3 times a year living in the Midwest. Ive been confused on what a daily driver can do or stick with the ratio around "3"

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[whiped]

Just to confirm. Ive been following the DP thread.

Im daily driving and do thr occasional wot run

I can run a DP with the crank being 194 with or with out the need of Cooling?

I don't autocross and ill maybe hit the quarter mile 2 or 3 times a year living in the Midwest. Ive been confused on what a daily driver can do or stick with the ratio around "3"

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You will absolutely need cooling running a sc pulley and a 194 crank.

You could do just the 194 and get by during winter but it would be wise to upgrade the cooling before the heat came.

[Tod]

You will absolutely need cooling running a sc pulley and a 194 crank.

You could do just the 194 and get by during winter but it would be wise to upgrade the cooling before the heat came.

Awesome thanks! So much info being shared its hard to figure out.

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[whiped]

Awesome thanks! So much info being shared its hard to figure out.

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Read the first post in the DP thread. Most of the info including this is there.

[Tod]

Read the first post in the DP thread. Most of the info including this is there.

I saw it. With the avid road racers/quater mile guys i wasnt sure if it was geared towards those or the stop light nationals guys like myself.

Great read either way and i appreciate all of you for leading the way!

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[Loe]

A few questions:
@Mike and Loe, I am in Manitoba (North of North Dakota) with summer temps in the 30*C range and I autocross my car extensively and plan to do hotlaps at my local track (1.3 mile 9 turns) which is typically 7-10 laps including warmup and cool down. Is the concern mostly the heat or as I have seen posted, possibly traction issues?

As I have yet to tune my car (still waiting to see what APR brings to the table and I need to research dual pulley more), I am 6MT, will a tuner set a custom rev limiter? From my own logging my car will hit over 7350 RPM in first gear and I would really like to dial that back to 7000 knowing there may be overshoot. And at autocross there are a number of courses where I will hit the rev limiter and even be riding the limiter for a number of seconds.

@Loe, just to clarify that you mean running the 194 with the AWE pulley as well right?

I love the idea of lots of torque down low but it sounds like it can be problematic depending on the situation and goal one might have.


Shawn

Yes, in combination with a smaller upper pulley. However, since the thread is about a lower pulley only, a 206mm crank would be almost similar in ratio (slightly lower).

[bhvrdr]

I'm in a situation now where I am considering doing only the CP. I'm thinking around 200mm for stock cooling and 6400rpm redline.

Question: Did all of you find that it was absolutely necessary to go to the service position to do the CP or were some of you able to gumby your way into doing it without?

Thanks,
Mike

[JD S4]

And since a bunch of smart people are reading this...

I'm considering pulling my blower instead of going into service position to install my snout pulley (on it's way from EPL).. I've read a few posts that make me believe that pulling the blower isn't actually that bad.. Perhaps even less work than pulling the front (at least the first time with learning curve)..

Anyone have any thoughts? Upside to pulling the blower is getting preventative maintenence done in parallel.

[bhvrdr]

I personally would prefer to put the car in the service position but I can see going either way. I find the hardware getting the car to the service position to be very easygoing to get to and to get unfastened.

I find the blower removal for the first time to be a pain until you get things separated and loose... second time taking your blower off is probably much quicker. The hardware on the coolant lines going to the SC seem very stuck on mine and I worry about cracking something...not a huge deal. Also lining up the SC over the PCV and then back up to the holes for the bolts I can see either going really easy getting lucky and working perfect for some and taking a frustrating hour of cursing for others (read: me).

Mike

[whiped]

I'm in a situation now where I am considering doing only the CP. I'm thinking around 200mm for stock cooling and 6400rpm redline.

Question: Did all of you find that it was absolutely necessary to go to the service position to do the CP or were some of you able to gumby your way into doing it without?

Thanks,
Mike

Put the car in service position.

The extra 20 minutes it will take you is definitely worth it.

I have not pulled the SC but it shouldn't be too bad.

[bhvrdr]

Put the car in service position.

The extra 20 minutes it will take you is definitely worth it.

Thanks man. Yeah, figured. Just trying to be lazy.

Mike

[maty360414]

You will absolutely need cooling running a sc pulley and a 194 crank.

You could do just the 194 and get by during winter but it would be wise to upgrade the cooling before the heat came.

what about SC pulley and JHM 179, would i need cooling for DD? pushing it a bit on the streets

[whiped]

It is recommended but not required. Heat-soak will come quick.

If you are trying to do it on the cheap do the Hofa mod for a few hundred bucks.

[14S4GWM]

what about SC pulley and JHM 179, would i need cooling for DD? pushing it a bit on the streets

You were just complaining about the price of a pulley tool and you're talking about this. Nice ride for a college student and stage 2 on top of it.

[JD S4]

T Just trying to be lazy.

my dude

- - - Updated - - -

You were just complaining about the price of a pulley tool and you're talking about this. Nice ride for a college student and stage 2 on top of it.

To be fair - nobody wants to spend $200 on a pulley remover regardless of income.

[RyanJon]

I'm in a situation now where I am considering doing only the CP. I'm thinking around 200mm for stock cooling and 6400rpm redline.

Question: Did all of you find that it was absolutely necessary to go to the service position to do the CP or were some of you able to gumby your way into doing it without?

Thanks,
Mike

Ive read that it is possible and that MRC keep their stage 2 cost down by not having to put the car into service position this saving labour for the customer.

They have done so many though, they will be able to do it with their eyes shut. I know mechanics will modify tools and bend spanners etc into shapes for specific jobs and it's probably what they have done and use.

Ryan

[j1n]

my dude

- - - Updated - - -



To be fair - nobody wants to spend $200 on a pulley remover regardless of income.

You got that right.

Wish most the tuners went with a bigger Crank pulley instead of a smaller SC pulley since the OEM crank pulley is known to fail. Also wouldnt have to buy a pulley remover tool.

i already invested in an APR stage 1 since i have an APR tuner very close by. if i go with their stage 2, i know eventually ima have to replace that crank pulley with an after market.