My idea of ultracharged

[Hofahome]

I know SRM did the whole twincharged thing and it was a bust. And APR, wait I mean Magnussen, did the 1740 and it was a bust. But what if you combine a centrifual (ie. Vortec or procharger) along with the OEM supercharger. I think this is the real ultracharged. And don't tell me that APR is already ultracharging. Their system as far as I can tell is superdupercharging at best, but not ultra.

I can think of a couple ways this would (possibly) work. Obviously this would be stupid custom and probably cost 5-10k, probably much more by the time you blow the motor the first time you go WOT. But I'm just spitballing ideas here, if not just to conceptualize how it could be done.

As far as mounting the unit - maybe use a long bracket from the engine to the area where the OEM air filter sits and run it off a long s/c belt. The intake and air filter can run below since there is ample room.

I'm not sure you could just hook up the output of the vortec to the TB. This might impede flow at low RPMs and reduce power. Maybe you could create a 2 into 1 throttle body adapter? I assume with the pressurized air to the TVS, you would have to configure the bypass valve to open externally, right?

The other concern I have is IATs. I assume they would be stupid high as a result of double pressurizing? There is a air to water cooler you can use between the vortec and the OEM supercharger. Here is an example:

https://lmr.com/item/VOR-FR218130SQ/...FU5afgod9a4M4g

You would have to run either a separate cooling system to this or somehow use a stacked HE with the OEM s/c coolant loop.

Thoughts?

ugh, this seems complicated. fuck it. Just hook up some nitrous.

[DGVR6]

Lol superdupercharging

[xpoweruk]

Series
The series arrangement, the more common arrangement of twinchargers, is set up such that one compressor's (turbo or supercharger) output feeds the inlet of another. A sequentially-organized supercharger is connected to a medium- to large-sized turbocharger. The supercharger provides near-instant manifold pressure (eliminating turbo lag, which would otherwise result when the turbocharger is not up to its operating speed). Once the turbocharger has reached operating speed, the supercharger can either continue compounding the pressurized air to the turbocharger inlet (yielding elevated intake pressures), or it can be bypassed and/or mechanically decoupled from the drivetrain via an electromagnetic clutch and bypass valve (increasing efficiency of the induction system).

Other series configurations exist where no bypass system is employed and both compressors are in continuous duty. As a result, compounded boost is always produced as the pressure ratios of the two compressors are multiplied, not added. In other words, if a turbocharger which produced 10 psi (0.7 bar) (pressure ratio = 1.7) alone blew into a supercharger which also produced 10 psi alone, the resultant manifold pressure would be 27 psi (1.9 bar) (PR=2.8) rather than 20 psi (1.4 bar) (PR=2.3). This form of series twincharging allows for the production of boost pressures that would otherwise be unachievable with other compressor arrangements and would be inefficient.

However, the efficiencies of the turbo and supercharger are also multiplied, and since the efficiency of the supercharger is often much lower than that of large turbochargers, this can lead to extremely high manifold temperatures unless very powerful charge cooling is employed. For example, if a turbocharger with an efficiency of 70% blew into a Roots blower with an efficiency of 60%, the overall compression efficiency would be only 42% -- at 2.8 pressure ratio as shown above and 20 °C (68 °F) ambient temperature, which means that air exiting the turbocharger would be 263 °C (505 °F), which is enough to melt most rubber couplers and nearly enough to melt expensive silicone couplers. A large turbocharger producing 27 psi (1.9 bar) by itself, with an adiabatic efficiency of around 70%, would produce air at just 166 °C (331 °F). Additionally, the energy cost to drive a supercharger is higher than that of a turbocharger; if it is bypassed, the load of performing compression is removed, leaving only slight parasitic losses from spinning the working parts of the supercharger. The supercharger can further be disconnected electrically (using an electromagnetic clutch such as those used on the VW 1.4TSI or Toyota's 4A-GZE, although this is not because it is a twin charged engine; it is intended only to bypass the supercharger under low-load conditions) which eliminates this small parasitic loss.

With series twincharging, the turbocharger can be of a less expensive and more durable journal bearing variety, and the sacrifice in boost response is more than made up for by the instant-on nature of displacement superchargers. While the weight and cost of the supercharger assembly are always a factor, the inefficiency and power consumption of the supercharger are almost totally eliminated as the turbocharger reaches operating rpm and the supercharge is effectively disconnected by the bypass valve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twincharger

Sounds feasible,but temps & efficiency will ultimately make or break the idea

[RyanJon]

You'd be in for so much money, you'd be better off doing what MRC have done and put an s6/rs6 engine in and make some serious power

[BuffDavid]

Or, just buy a new car =)

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[BlownOne]

You be better off either ditching the pd blower and just replacing it with a vortech or procharger, but you would need an intake manifold. Depending on the size of the bower, you could make well into the 1000whp area, well the blower could lol. Other option for great power would be ditching the pd blower and doing a twin turbo kit...with correctly sized bb turbos you would have a legit powerhouse that no longer has iat problems. Honestly tho, you would be better off just starting with another platform if you want big power...these little 3.0L make decent power and are quick, but they aren't up for making big power imo.

Now one thing you're right about that nobody has really played with is nitrous. Pd blowers love nitrous plates post intercoolers and usually make way more power than the shot if set up properly. You need to have a nitrous specific tune with less timing, a fuel cell with race gas for when you spray and a plate system that nitrous express could probably make custom for you. Iats also benefit when spraying post I/c. Food for thought brotha...

Will

[Thurston]

I like the design of that vortech you posted. Someone also mentioned either Sms or eurocode or someone mentioned that there is likely a common fail part w the 3.0's when you push the power beyond a certain point, any idea what that component might be? guess we will find out here soon enough.

[JD S4]

Buy the magnusson blower, go "big" dual pulley, a stage 3 tune and really spend some time on IAT's (front mount + trunk chiller + meth)

Much cheaper than twin charting anythying.. The Magnusson fell flat'ish but the platform has advanced a lot since then.

[RudyH]

Or, just buy a new car =)

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+1 I think if you aren't happy with Stage II, it's time to move on from the platform at this point. Save for a down payment on a RS4 if you are super loyal to the brand

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...vant-spy-shots

[Hofahome]

Buy the magnusson blower, go "big" dual pulley, a stage 3 tune and really spend some time on IAT's (front mount + trunk chiller + meth)

Much cheaper than twin charting anythying.. The Magnusson fell flat'ish but the platform has advanced a lot since then.

I didn't know it failed due to temps. In that case I would think one of the poor suckers who spent the 10k would try pre and post meth. Ya sounds like a much better idea than mine.

[JD S4]

I didn't know it failed due to temps. In that case I would think one of the poor suckers who spent the 10k would try pre and post meth. Ya sounds like a much better idea than mine.

Think it failed for a lot of reasons.. But when it came out - we were further behind..

We now have more fuel (from GIAC and potentially the OEM E85). We're pushing the limits on cooling as well - meth/cryo, cold front, resevoirs, trunk kits, A/C kits, etc. We're also spinning faster with dual pulleys (large ones)... We have at home tuning as well..

Get a Magnusson.. Throw on a tiny snout pulley and huge (205+ crank pulley), upgrade LPFP and in-tank pump, work ALL of the cooling mods and get a tuner interested in tinkering for a day (EPL comes to mind).. Throw some E85/race fuel at it full time and you'll be at the limits of the stock internals, tranny and grip.. Don't think you'd need to twincharge or ultracharge anything. APR has commented to the limits of the stock internals. It's very high for stock motor.. but it's not too far from where a lot of the high dog dual pulleys are at now without magnusson.

[bhvrdr]

Buy the magnusson blower, go "big" dual pulley, a stage 3 tune and really spend some time on IAT's (front mount + trunk chiller + meth)

Much cheaper than twin charting anythying.. The Magnusson fell flat'ish but the platform has advanced a lot since then.

The only problem is that the Maggie may require a redesign of the intercooler cores. Someone who had one can chime in but from what I had read the maggie cores were not cooling as well as the OEM 1320 ones and were perhaps not sized properly. Hopefully someone firsthand can comment on that to either dispel that rumor or confirm it.

Mike

[BoostEasy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twincharger

Sounds feasible,but temps & efficiency will ultimately make or break the idea

This. The idea is nothing new and it's not used more widespread because it doesn't really work well in cars.

Staged compressors (twin-charging) have the huge weakness of net efficiency as the product of the each compressor. Eg A compressor with 70% eff staged into another compressor with 70% eff isn't a 70% output, it's 49%. When you start actually computing real outlet temps with some of the simple formulas available, it's clear you can see oven temperatures hot enough to bake cookies on just a single compressor with boost up around 20psi.

The primary limiting factor for power on street cars with forced induction from the factory is going to be the anti-knock properties of the everyday 89-93 AKI gasoline you buy from the pump.

A typical sea-level/70'F boost number for max power you can get away with on the 91-93 gas on an OEM FI car with OEM intercoolers is going to be around 13-15psi. Lower ambient temps will help and you can run more boost without making more power (with much increased spark retard from ECU) but those are the rough numbers I've seen in real life across several platforms.

If anyone wants to learn more about the topic, I highly recommend this book. Easy read and worth the time: https://www.amazon.com/Supercharging...mance+handbook

[infinkc]

This. The idea is nothing new and it's not used more widespread because it doesn't really work well in cars.

Staged compressors (twin-charging) have the huge weakness of net efficiency as the product of the each compressor. Eg A compressor with 70% eff staged into another compressor with 70% eff isn't a 70% output, it's 49%. When you start actually computing real outlet temps with some of the simple formulas available, it's clear you can see oven temperatures hot enough to bake cookies on just a single compressor with boost up around 20psi.

The primary limiting factor for power on street cars with forced induction from the factory is going to be the anti-knock properties of the everyday 89-93 AKI gasoline you buy from the pump.

A typical sea-level/70'F boost number for max power you can get away with on the 91-93 gas on an OEM FI car with OEM intercoolers is going to be around 13-15psi. Lower ambient temps will help and you can run more boost without making more power (with much increased spark retard from ECU) but those are the rough numbers I've seen in real life across several platforms.

If anyone wants to learn more about the topic, I highly recommend this book. Easy read and worth the time: https://www.amazon.com/Supercharging...mance+handbook

My volvo xc90 is twincharged, its super efficient, It suprised me how much a 4cyl engine can put out for such a large vehicle.

Still curious how much the stock block can handle, i have heard that the clearances are not designed to handle much more than what the dual pulley setups are doing.

[BoostEasy]

My volvo xc90 is twincharged, its super efficient, It suprised me how much a 4cyl engine can put out for such a large vehicle.

Still curious how much the stock block can handle, i have heard that the clearances are not designed to handle much more than what the dual pulley setups are doing.

There are a handful of turbo-charged oddities out there like your Volvo (staged TC) and even the mid-90s MK Supra with it's small and large turbos (not-staged TC) but they were complex solutions with drawbacks obsoleted by newer tech like simply better performing turbos as well as twin-scroll turbos, to name a few. I like the new electric superchargers that are being considered by some OEMs (I'm not sure they are used anywhere yet on new cars).

I wouldn't worry too much about the block. There will be limits but with proper tuning modern engines are pretty stout. The BMW n54 record for a stock block is 861WHP (@36psi) IIRC. That's more the 3x the stock 280WHP it typically makes. I'd feel comfortable daily driving a 3.0T around 450-500WHP with good tuning (not a lot of timing drops).

Once you go much beyond that, lots of stuff is getting pushed pretty hard (fuel pumps, axles, trans, engine) and will start to break often enough that the car will end up being a garage queen and eventually sold.

Runway events and long rolling races can be pretty dangerous to an engine pushing 2x+ stock HP. The OEM piston to wall clearances are the big killer. Piston crown builds up heat, expands, grabs unlubed top of cylinder and busts a piece off or rings get pinch and the cylinder is down. 1/4 mi racing is a little more forgiving.

[Dirt]

@BoostEasy - I'm sure I'm reading too much into it, but would you care to elaborate further on what you mean by "obsolete?" I believe you're referring to compound turbos, but I'm not sure it's accurate to think of compounds as old tech when they're readily found on new engines (think 6.7 Scorpion, Ecoboost, etc).

.

[BoostEasy]

@BoostEasy - I'm sure I'm reading too much into it, but would you care to elaborate further on what you mean by "obsolete?" I believe you're referring to compound turbos, but I'm not sure it's accurate to think of compounds as old tech when they're readily found on new engines (think 6.7 Scorpion, Ecoboost, etc).

.

Obsolete in the sense of one classic single turbo being plumbed into another as happened on a handful of older cars to my knowledge and what SRM attempted on their S4 and I think one other person on AZ is also still working on.

I wasn't aware of the Scorpion's new Borg-Warner siamesed compressor turbo, which isn't the above. It's a new idea where two compressors are siamesed back-to-back on a single VTG turbine shaft making it more or less a twin-turbo in a package slightly longer than single with supposedly better response. But what works well on diesel may not on gasoline because of a variety of factors including what the fuel can support.

There are a number of new twists on turbo tech from the switchblade, Koenigsigg VTG and others and not all of them are realistically going to be used because of cost, patent concerns, gas vs diesel needs etc.

The ecoboost stuff I'm not very familiar with and I am not aware of any that used staged or compound turbos. If you have an example, pass it along. I'd like to see it.

Thanks.

[Hofahome]

Thanks everyone for the info. Good stuff here.

What if eaton or someone else designed a hybrid PD and centrifugal blower, that gradually switches between both rather than utilizing both together. Essentially the cent blower sits on one side towards the front of the PD blower and runs off the same gear as one of the lobes. You use a bypass like our current one to open in mid to high rpm and feed the bypassed air into the intake side of the cent blower (thus bypass air going to the PD blower's lobes). There would obviously have to be feed for the compressed air from the cent s/c back into the PD manifold to be cooled by the intercooler. Overall this would lead to great low rpm instant torque with bigger boost up top.

[BoostEasy]

Thanks everyone for the info. Good stuff here.

What if eaton or someone else designed a hybrid PD and centrifugal blower, that gradually switches between both rather than utilizing both together. Essentially the cent blower sits on one side towards the front of the PD blower and runs off the same gear as one of the lobes. You use a bypass like our current one to open in mid to high rpm and feed the bypassed air into the intake side of the cent blower (thus bypass air going to the PD blower's lobes). There would obviously have to be feed for the compressed air from the cent s/c back into the PD manifold to be cooled by the intercooler. Overall this would lead to great low rpm instant torque with bigger boost up top.

What problem specifically are you trying to solve with the idea of Ultracharging or staged compressors? If it's just a higher boost number you should know that the 3.0T engine has 2.5 BAR MAP sensors post-intercooler (well, my 2014 S5 does anyways), which is about 22psi in theory, possibly a little less in practice. So, that's the most post-intercooler boost you could likely utilize until someone who knows what they are doing in the ECU can adapt in a pair of different 3+ BAR MAP sensors, assuming you're trying to do it all with a flash remap. A piggy/flash stack may actually work well if one could find a decent piggy.

No matter what you run for a compressor, when you hit ~18psi in 80+'F weather, you're going to have discharge temps around 300'F that need a real serious intercooler and, most likely, meth/water injection. That's just a lot of very hot boost and better gas is only going to get you so far unless you drive only when it's below 50'F ambient.