Audizine - An Automotive Enthusiast Community

Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 28 2006
    AZ Member #
    14483
    My Garage
    '13 A5, '24 Tiguan SEL R-Line
    Location
    Western Maryland

    Time For a New Head - Part 4

    Guest-only advertisement. Register or Log In now!
    A continuation from this thread: Time-For-a-New-Head-Part-3

    So I thought a little follow up would be nice. I replaced my AMB head with a AWM head a few weeks ago and couldn't remember if I torqued the head properly. I have been debating the best course of action.

    Rocket1420 recently replaced his head using the same head bolts and head gasket that I used. He meticulously recorded all of the torque readings for each bolt after both the 90° and 180° turns. Using these torque values I was able to determine an average value for each position.

    He started at 40Nm per specification. He added 90° of rotation. At 90° the average torque value was 69Nm. He then added an additional 90° for a total of 180° of rotation. At 180° of rotation the average torque value was 86Nm.

    So here you can see how the stretch bolts are reacting to the increased turns. The first 90° increased the torque by 29Nm. The second 90° only increased the torque by 17Nm. Basically what is happening is that the bolts are beginning to stretch. Sorta like a rubber band. This stretch is what helps the bolts maintain a constant clamping force even with the differences in expansion between an Aluminum head and Iron block.

    Today I pulled my valve cover and checked the torque on my head bolts. I set my torque wrench to 80Nm. I assumed that if I had applied the second 90° turn that I would quickly hit the 80Nm limit. If I had not applied the second 90° turn I would be able to get most if not all of a 90° turn in before hitting the 80Nm limit.

    I'm glad I did this! I guess I really did forget to add the second 90° turn. Apparently the first 90° is enough to initially hold the head gasket but would probably cause a leak in the long run. I put close to 1,000 miles on my engine with only the first 90° with no problems. I used my block tester to make sure I wasn't getting any exhaust gasses into the cooling system and came up clean.

    Again - A special thanks to Rocket1420 for providing me the information necessary to put this to bed. Now I can quit worrying about having to do this all over again in the near future.

    Now it's time for a stiff Bourbon;-)
    Last edited by old guy; 11-05-2016 at 05:13 PM.
    '03 A4 5-MT Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L With full supporting mods. Sold (and missed dearly).
    '13 A5 6-MT Needs more Fun Stuff: Neuspeed PM / 3.0 TDI Intercooler / H&R OE Sport Springs / Bilstein B8 Shocks / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / ECS Short Shifter / S5 Side Skirts / RS Grille

  2. #2
    Senior Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Oct 07 2008
    AZ Member #
    33928
    My Garage
    05’ GLI 1.8T_4motion, 07’ A4 3.2_quattro
    Location
    Calgary, AB.

    That is good info - thanks for the follow up and glad to hear you didn’t have any short-term issues with only the first 90*!

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings diagnosticator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 26 2005
    AZ Member #
    7741
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Are you using stock OEM head bolts or other?
    Vorsprung durch Technik

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 28 2006
    AZ Member #
    14483
    My Garage
    '13 A5, '24 Tiguan SEL R-Line
    Location
    Western Maryland

    Elring head bolts and head gasket. I had originally considered ARP bolts but at a 5X cost factor and considering the OEM stretch bolts lasted 225k miles it just didn't seem worth the expenditure.
    '03 A4 5-MT Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L With full supporting mods. Sold (and missed dearly).
    '13 A5 6-MT Needs more Fun Stuff: Neuspeed PM / 3.0 TDI Intercooler / H&R OE Sport Springs / Bilstein B8 Shocks / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / ECS Short Shifter / S5 Side Skirts / RS Grille

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings diagnosticator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 26 2005
    AZ Member #
    7741
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Yeah, that is reasonable. However, applied torque plus angle turn vs developed clamp load is not a linier relationship. See http://www.boltscience.com for additional info. Text explains how to audit torque settings to confirm correct torque on fasteners,
    Last edited by diagnosticator; 11-05-2016 at 10:58 PM.
    Vorsprung durch Technik

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings Furly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 19 2013
    AZ Member #
    136650
    Location
    Bay Area, CA

    Pretty sure my bentley only had 1 90° stretch. If it requires two stretches perhaps that has something to do with my head gasket leaking oil out the front passenger side.
    Audi Club Bay Area

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings customa4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 07 2011
    AZ Member #
    73592
    My Garage
    02 A4 1.8T CVT, 02 A4 1.8TQ 5spd, 92 Geo Prizm
    Location
    CT

    Wow I read the title and saw it was from Old Guy and though to myself Oh No!! I'm glad this thread isn't what it sounds like. I thought you actually needed another new head!

    Here ya go Furly, torque specs are in here. Click
    K&N-Milltek HFC-Magnaflow Catback-APR snub mount-ER Sport FMIC-Forge TIP-Forge DV-Podi-034 Motor Mounts-034 Rear Sway/End Links-STaSIS Street Sport Coils-Bentley Manual

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings
    Join Date
    Jun 26 2015
    AZ Member #
    339463
    Location
    Tampa, FL

    Quote Originally Posted by Furly View Post
    Pretty sure my bentley only had 1 90° stretch. If it requires two stretches perhaps that has something to do with my head gasket leaking oil out the front passenger side.
    It is technically 40 Nm + 180 degrees (two 90 degrees allowable).

    Unfortunately I had to do my head all over again. My AMB head had .007" distortion, and I put it on anyway. Good news, though, is that I have a freshly machined AWM head ready to go, and my second head gasket and head bolts arrived today. So tomorrow I should be caught back up to Fletcher. Hopefully. Just glad I could help!

    Lesson learned - when the manual says .004" allowable, it really means that.

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 28 2006
    AZ Member #
    14483
    My Garage
    '13 A5, '24 Tiguan SEL R-Line
    Location
    Western Maryland

    Quote Originally Posted by diagnosticator View Post
    Applied torque plus angle turn vs developed clamp load is not a linear relationship.
    Exactly. That's why TTT (Torque To Turns) also know as TTA (Torque To Angle) bolts have a low base torque value followed with an angle (turns) value. The base torque value assures that the bolt is bottomed out. Then the calculated turns value assures that the bolt has been stretched to the proper length to keep it within the acceptable elastic region.

    Measuring rotation in degrees instead of an applied torque figure ensures that friction does not overcome the tightening process and that an even clamp load is achieved. Too little stretch and the clamp force can drop out of the holding capacity required to contain the force requirement. (ex: engine firing events). Too much stretch can take the bolt out of its elastic region and cause the bolt to reduce in holding force or even go to the point of bolt failure.

    By using calculated length values it takes frictional torque out of the equation.
    '03 A4 5-MT Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L With full supporting mods. Sold (and missed dearly).
    '13 A5 6-MT Needs more Fun Stuff: Neuspeed PM / 3.0 TDI Intercooler / H&R OE Sport Springs / Bilstein B8 Shocks / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / ECS Short Shifter / S5 Side Skirts / RS Grille

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


    © 2001-2024 Audizine, Audizine.com, and Driverzines.com
    Audizine is an independently owned and operated automotive enthusiast community and news website.
    Audi and the Audi logo(s) are copyright/trademark Audi AG. Audizine is not endorsed by or affiliated with Audi AG.