Cost to Build and Options - Stage 3, Tial, GT?

[HardHitter]

Hi All,

While back I owned a 2000 S4 which was Stage 3 K04. I can't recall power numbers but for some reason I'm remembering around 370awhp/420awhp (does that sound right for a stock motor K04 Stage 3?)

Anyway, right now I own a 2012 Mazdaspeed3 and a 1997 Dodge Viper and was thinking about getting back into a B5 S4 (can't deal with FWD) but since I've been out of the Audi scene for 6 years I need a little guidance on what has developed and what are the "builds" to look for.

After a little research, these seem to be the common builds. Anything else that I'm missing and out of these builds which are the "best" for power

Stage 3 K04
Stage 3 K24
GT28RS
Tial 605
Tial 770

After identifying the build setups above, the next question is, should I look for something already built or buy a local S4 that needs work and build it myself. Been searching the classified and there are two Tial 770 cars and a Stage 3 K24 car that I've been keeping a close eye on but not sure if I should bite. The Tial cars are in the low 20's.

If the Tial setup is the "best" setup to go with, how much would it cost to build? Say $7k for a starting S4 + kit + other upgrade parts + labor etc would it be greater than the low 20's, my logic tells me yes.

[Peter1.8t]

Depends on what kind of Tials (605.2's, 770's, XR770's, XR880's you won't find anyone with these yet though), also depends on if the motor is built and how well it was built.

Usually people that build Tial cars aren't the people that cheap out on things. K24's are from China so I can't say the same about that. Although there are some really nice k24 cars out there, the turbos themselves are a considerably cheaper than Tial which is why they have been the fan favorite for years by newer s4 owners wanting to go fast.

[slowSfaux]

Not to thread jack, but xr880s? I'm intrigued.

[HardHitter]

Depends on what kind of Tials (605.2's, 770's, XR770's, XR880's you won't find anyone with these yet though), also depends on if the motor is built and how well it was built.

Usually people that build Tial cars aren't the people that cheap out on things. K24's are from China so I can't say the same about that. Although there are some really nice k24 cars out there, the turbos themselves are a considerably cheaper than Tial which is why they have been the fan favorite for years by newer s4 owners wanting to go fast.

The K24 setups seem to be faster than K04 setups?

Seems as though K04/K24 are good for quick spool, Tial 770's medium of the spool and then GT28's top end?

[MacDaddy]

The game has changed a but but the tried and true OG build is still a good way to go. The demographic and crowd is more of a broke-know it all that half asses everything so getting a well maintained b5 s4 will be more difficult these days, but i would say if you have a good s4 to start with i say $15k is a good build budget to ensure a reliable s4.

Would be cheaper to buy someone elses well forsted stage 3 though

[HardHitter]

The game has changed a but but the tried and true OG build is still a good way to go. The demographic and crowd is more of a broke-know it all that half asses everything so getting a well maintained b5 s4 will be more difficult these days, but i would say if you have a good s4 to start with i say $15k is a good build budget to ensure a reliable s4.

Would be cheaper to buy someone elses well forsted stage 3 though

Yea, back in 2011 when I had my S4, the B5 community was really strong. Seems pretty dead these days and looks like a lot have moved on.

Back then, you could pickup clean, well kept Stage 3's around the $11-$13k range in the 80-100k mile range. Been roaming the Classifieds and very few clean B5's going for sale. May look into finding a clean starter and building my own.

The decision still is going to be which setup. Likely going to be a daily driver to put around town and have fun on the streets. The low end torque is going to be desired in the lower RPM range, so it sounds as though the K04's are going to be the ideal option but will continue to do the research on the Tials.

Or just buy a 996 911 Turbo but can't fathom spending $60K+ for similar awd power you can get from a built B5 S4 for $20-$25K

[avant1987]

I just had a shop build a frankenturbo stage 3 s4, I didn't cheap out on any supporting modifications and it came in around the budget you referenced. Only things I bought used were intercoolers (ER Raceworks) and the clutchmasters flywheel which I had resurfaced. My personal opinion is you really wouldn't get to enjoy a 77 car as a daily due to how late the power comes on. But you know what they say, boost is just a downshift away.


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[Mark00s4]

i agree with the above. if its well sorted out. im in the progress of a 605 build and its real easy to go pass the 20k mark, especially when you factor in all the other stuff;bbk,clutch, suspension, and the other stuff the nickels and dimes you. so buying someones else's project might be more financially appealing.

[HardHitter]

I just had a shop build a frankenturbo stage 3 s4, I didn't cheap out on any supporting modifications and it came in around the budget you referenced. Only things I bought used were intercoolers (ER Raceworks) and the clutchmasters flywheel which I had resurfaced. My personal opinion is you really wouldn't get to enjoy a 77 car as a daily due to how late the power comes on. But you know what they say, boost is just a downshift away.


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What RPM range are we speaking about here for the Tial 770 vs a K04?

If I remember correctly, the Stage 3 would be full boost around 3-3500 range right?

On my Viper, I have 460rwtq at 3500 RPMs. I know comparing a 8.0L vs a 2.7L turbo motor is night and day, but if there is anything that'd offer that kind of torque or more in that low end, that'd be great.

[acoleman]

Buying a clean one that's maintained and built already will save you over $10k. I'm selling my FT stage 3 for $9k in the classifieds. It's a buyers market right now.

[Peter1.8t]

The K24 setups seem to be faster than K04 setups?

Seems as though K04/K24 are good for quick spool, Tial 770's medium of the spool and then GT28's top end?

Depends on the k24 set up and the driver I guess. My inferior k04 car is still 3-0 against local k24 cars.

770r's actually build boost fairly quickly as they are ball bearing. A gt28 car would definitely have more topend but there's so few of those due to the costs involved. Most people that go all out have 770's as you can still split the blocks on those.

[FlyboyS4]

With power as a main goal I'd choose the 770's. Versus something like a BW RS6 they give up very little below 4700 rpm, and after that their advantage just keeps growing.

I'd also look for something that has already been modified, though not necessarily with 770's. A K04 or K04-hybrid would probably be good base to start from, if the car is solid. On the other hand if someone put the time and money into building the car with 770's it was probably done right, I don't see many budget 770 builds being talked about.

[qpdb]

Curious about this as well. Looking to build a 770 DD, and was wondering if I am on the right track?
Goal is 550whp with meth.

Keeping it a 2.7?
Labor for the short block? rods and maybe pistons.
Cost of CNC & labor for 2.8 heads if I already have oversized valves, springs, seats, etc? Golfball dimples worth the extra money?
Make sense to get larger than rs4 y-pipe & bi-pipes if I have rs4 intake manifold, tb, tbb, and will use rs4 airbox? Trying to keep the engine bay look stock and I don't like cleaning the cone filter.

[Zba]

CNC Porting
http://www.performancebyie.com/integ...der-heads-bare

[Mark00s4]

keep in mind that you will need to buy their valves that are machined for for those heads. rai is another company that does cnc heads. but its not cheap. you are probably looking 4000+/- for a complete heads. you add that in with the price of 770, rods,bearings,bolts or studs,rings, " larger than rs4 y pipe",divorced downpipes, and all the other supporting stuff. you are easily above the 15,000 mark and that is just parts ,im not sure how much labor the op is putting in ,so count that in too. so that fully built 770 avant for sale in classifieds isnt a bad deal at all. unless you like the idea of building something yourself.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

K24's are definitely not known for their spool... I find them quite laggy for their size and power potential. Something there is mismatched.

At least on a stock 2.7T.

[HardHitter]

Thanks everyone for their feedback. After some further research, I think my focus is going to be on a built 2.8 Tial 770 car.

Now if I can find one to drive to just validate that focus, that is the next challenge.

[Cgoon009]

I'm working on a Tial 605r car. To date I have spent about 8k on the motor (stock motor, just a refresh of seals and worn components.) I fully expect to be somewhere around the 10-12k range when all done. Hope that helps.

[MikeyB3]

My fully built, daily driven, 770 avant is up for sale. Just saying that you'd have a tough time reproducing such a build for less. in case you're interested. PM me with any questions.

[Yuppie]

I disagree with TiAL 770 not being able to be a daily driver. I daily drove my for a little while before it was taken apart and I plan to daily drive when it is back on the road. It does spool little slower then K04s however it is not as bad as how people make it sound.

[MikeyB3]

I disagree with TiAL 770 not being able to be a daily driver. I daily drove my for a little while before it was taken apart and I plan to daily drive when it is back on the road. It does spool little slower then K04s however it is not as bad as how people make it sound.

This. I DD mine, no problem. People are a little ridiculous about spool. Can you start out in 2nd from a stop? -- yeah. But it obviously will take a little longer to pick up. As far as spool while accelerating--- please. It's a total non-issue.

[Yuppie]

This. I DD mine, no problem. People are a little ridiculous about spool. Can you start out in 2nd from a stop? -- yeah. But it obviously will take a little longer to pick up. As far as spool while accelerating--- please. It's a total non-issue.

I completely agree, Mikey. Your 770 is a statement that big turbo cars can be driven like k04 cars and not sit around for weekend and then down for 6months after couple of thousand miles. I told HardHitter that your car is one of those that I would buy and not worry about it being mistreated.

[MikeyB3]

I completely agree, Mikey. Your 770 is a statement that big turbo cars can be driven like k04 cars and not sit around for weekend and then down for 6months after couple of thousand miles. I told HardHitter that your car is one of those that I would buy and not worry about it being mistreated.

Thanks man. Much appreciated. With that reliability, came a strong financial cost. Finding the right people to do the right things, the right way, the FIRST TIME was a feat in itself. I dont baby my car. But I also dont abuse it. I drive it how it was meant to be driven and I thoroughly enjoy it. Next owner will too. Thanks for the kind words man.

[jturnbull]

Contemplating going from F21s to 605s myself trying to squeeze as much out of the stock motor as I can.