Pre Supercharger Air Cooling Discussion

[hckymstr19]

Hey guys with all this talk about dual pulleys and how intake Temps are a major concern, it got me thinking about the whole killer chiller idea but in a different sense. Would it be beneficial to install a tube style air to water intercooler basically in place of our intake tube with an air filter on one end and then the other end goes to the throttle body.

But that's not all, I was thinking we could use the killer chiller to super cool the water going into that intercooler and I'm thinking that would result in significantly reduced air intake Temps entering the supercharger. The big question is would reducing the air temp entering the supercharger be significant enough to make a substantial difference. Just wanted to get peoples thoughts. Thanks

[SwankP3RF3ct10n]

You would need to make large enough impact in air temps coming into the supercharger to make a difference. A few degrees won't be much of a difference. What I'm saying is if you can make a 20 degree difference, then it should help, more, even more. Unless you can make the inbound air seem like it's winter air, it's pretty much not worth it. About the only way to do this would be with one of those killer chiller intake bulbs that's supposed to help supercool the air (may not even be enough) or with a very small shot of dry nitrous. Back in the day when I had another car supercharged and it had no availability to intercool the charger at all without a custom build, I set up a single/small dry shot right after the filter and shot that when needed. I made it small enough to help cool the intake temps, but not large enough to require extra fueling to compensate. The tune was geared towards the cooler air and it was basically like winter air or slightly colder, depending on conditions, etc. The jet I had was custom made to be much smaller than what the dry kit would come with. Worked out well and didn't cause any issues. Of course, what sucks is when you run out of the happy gas... lol.

[infinkc]

The biggest problem is once the intercoolers in the charger get heatsoaked, your not going to be cooling down the air much. Not much a pre-charger setup would do. Better off investing in cooling the charger down.

[hckymstr19]

With all the research on the killer chiller setups and how cold it cools that fluid, I'm thinking it would be like winter air. Again I'm just speculating but from the results from killer chiller being able to cool the intercoolers that lay in the heart of the engine with all that heat, I'm thinking it would be able to cool that intake sub really substantially and be able to make that air being sucked in winter cool.

I was also thinking, this is by no means scientific, but my common sense tells me if everything else stays the same, if I do a 3rd gear pull and my intake temp goes from 40c to 55c with a normal intake tube and temp and then I switch the this new setup and it decrease Temps entering the charger by a 10 degrees wouldn't that decrease the Temps across that pull all 10 degrees less? I mean that seams significant to me, but I'm sure there is something I'm missing. But all in all that tub with killer chiller should make significant changes over a regular intake sucking in hot engine bay air especially in 90 degree summer days.

[Loe]

water injection up front, Killer Chiller out back :)

[hckymstr19]

water injection up front, Killer Chiller out back :)

How about water injection AND killer chiller up front and killer chiller out back?

[Loe]

How about water injection AND killer chiller up front and killer chiller out back?

Could work if you can route that some how. I would recommend that the KC lines go through the S/C inlet first, and then feed the S/C outlet to the intake tube, that way it serves its purpose to chill post-compressed air. The coolant temperature going into/out of the S/C doesn't change drastically, plenty of chilled fluids remaining to cool and intake tube.

[hckymstr19]

Could work if you can route that some how. I would recommend that the KC lines go through the S/C inlet first, and then feed the S/C outlet to the intake tube, that way it serves its purpose to chill post-compressed air. The coolant temperature going into/out of the S/C doesn't change drastically, plenty of chilled fluids remaining to cool and intake tube.

Yea I was thinking about how I wanted to route it, depending on the temps exiting the s/c that might work. But my original thought was "Y" ing the outlet of the killer chiller to both supply the intake tube and s/c with chilled fluid. Since my system is not pressurized I feel it could work but I'm not sure what the resistances are for the fluid going through the intake intercooler vs s/c intercooler s and whether fluid would be prefer more flow in one vs the other.

[BlownOne]

You would have the same or better effect spraying meth in the intake tube and using a KC for the I/c bricks, just like Loe suggested.

[hckymstr19]

You would have the same or better effect spraying meth in the intake tube and using a KC for the I/c bricks, just like Loe suggested.

O yea definitely, I'm not arguing that fact. But what I'm thinking is adding an intake air to water intercooler that's running off the killer chiller as well, has to be significantly beneficial right? I mean being able to lower the starting intake temp entering the charger will lower post Temps correct? I mean correct me if I'm wrong or maybe it won't make as big a temp drop as I'm thinking but in the middle of summer when it's 90+ out, I can only imagine the engine bay Temps and what that intake is sucking in, and being able to lower that would be significant. Right?

[BlownOne]

In theory yes an intake KC bulb should help cool the air, but idk how much because the air passes through the intake tube so quick. I also don't know how much of a pita it would be to install the intake bulb. Would it help? Yes it should. Could you achieve the same/better result with just meth? I think so. Not trying to discourage you from trying it, but I just want to point out that it might not work as well on a pd setup.

[hckymstr19]

In theory yes an intake KC bulb should help cool the air, but idk how much because the air passes through the intake tube so quick. I also don't know how much of a pita it would be to install the intake bulb. Would it help? Yes it should. Could you achieve the same/better result with just meth? I think so. Not trying to discourage you from trying it, but I just want to point out that it might not work as well on a pd setup.

No no ur not discouraging at all. That's why I posted on here to get people's thoughts and see if there was something I was missing.

But to you point about the air moving too fast across, isn't the air being pulled into the intake as fast as it's being pushed across the s/c intercoolers? I would think air would be moving across an intake intercooler fins at about the same rate as air passing over the s/c intercooler fins and from killer chiller reports that cools very well and that's even with the s/c intercoolers in the heart of the engine with alot more heat involved than the intake pipe.

[SwankP3RF3ct10n]

Just keep in mind that over a period of time, you will/could see some damage to the supercharger with water/meth injection... anything liquid. It's been known to cause issues to turbos and superchargers alike.

[theweebabyseamus]

I think this is in that 'a ton of work for minimal gains' category. But keep them coming, thats how innovation happens.

[scottycs]

^ ton of work AND money for minimal gains.

[hckymstr19]

I guess I would like to know why you think the gains would be minimal? If killer chiller guys are already seeing 30-50 degree temp drops when using killer chiller vs without, and that's air going across the s/c intercooler s then why would you think the effect wouldn't be the same if it was cooling the intake air pre supercharger. Especially in the really hot summer days? Just want to get your thoughts?

[hckymstr19]

^ ton of work AND money for minimal gains.

The intake tube would only be 200$ and I would already have the killer chiller setup, so that doesn't sound like alot of money to me.

[Loe]

pre-charger should help, but keep in mind that it won't be similar to running in actual 50F weather in 80F weather with air chilled down to 50F pre-S/C. The humidity/mercury are different, which does affect air density.

[scottycs]

So you are going to make a "intercooler/heat exchanger" that sits in a 3" pipe, plumbing, and tie it into the AC/cooling system?

[hckymstr19]

pre-charger should help, but keep in mind that it won't be similar to running in actual 50F weather in 80F weather with air chilled down to 50F pre-S/C. The humidity/mercury are different, which does affect air density.

O yea I'm aware of that but the same holds true for using the killer chiller for the s/c intercooler s right? What I'm saying is if the killer chiller works well for our s/c intercooler s and we are getting good results then wouldn't being able to lower the starting temp equate to a that much lower post supercharger intake temp?

Plus running air chilled down to 50 pre s/c is much better than probably 80+ on a 80 degree ambient temp day correct?

[hckymstr19]

So you are going to make a "intercooler/heat exchanger" that sits in a 3" pipe, plumbing, and tie it into the AC/cooling system?

They sell tube style air to water intercoolers and I will have the fluid going in and out of it go through the killer chiller system.

[Loe]

O yea I'm aware of that but the same holds true for using the killer chiller for the s/c intercooler s right? What I'm saying is if the killer chiller works well for our s/c intercooler s and we are getting good results then wouldn't being able to lower the starting temp equate to a that much lower post supercharger intake temp?

Plus running air chilled down to 50 pre s/c is much better than probably 80+ on a 80 degree ambient temp day correct?

all correct

[hckymstr19]

Well I guess there is only one way to find out. I'll give it a a shot and see what happens. Does anyone know if there is a pre intercooler or pre supercharger intake temp reading in vcds?

[Loe]

Well I guess there is only one way to find out. I'll give it a a shot and see what happens. Does anyone know if there is a pre intercooler or pre supercharger intake temp reading in vcds?

I tried to find it, but could not locate the table. Your measurement may come in a form of temperature gun instead. G'luck to you, should work!

[theweebabyseamus]

Im sure the *potential* gain of lowered air temps would be more than offset by the obstruction in the air pathway. IE, removing the air silencer in an E36 and picking up throttle response and 5 hp or the ported B8 throttle bodies that arent even an obstruction and gaining power by simply smoothing and flowing more air. You may lose throttle response and 30 hp trying to lower the intake temps 30 degrees in half of the overall volume of intake air.


Im reminded of the terrible movie The Big Hit: "Sure, yo yo yo, that's why I've gots this Trace buster BUSTER. See, when a motherf***er tryin' to bust your trace with a tracebuster this motherf***er is gonna bust the motherf***ing tracebuster that's busting your uh uh uh...""

[hckymstr19]

Im sure the *potential* gain of lowered air temps would be more than offset by the obstruction in the air pathway. IE, removing the air silencer in an E36 and picking up throttle response and 5 hp or the ported B8 throttle bodies that arent even an obstruction and gaining power by simply smoothing and flowing more air. You may lose throttle response and 30 hp trying to lower the intake temps 30 degrees in half of the overall volume of intake air.


Im reminded of the terrible movie The Big Hit: "Sure, yo yo yo, that's why I've gots this Trace buster BUSTER. See, when a motherf***er tryin' to bust your trace with a tracebuster this motherf***er is gonna bust the motherf***ing tracebuster that's busting your uh uh uh...""

Well I guess time will tell I think 300$ is worth a shot. I don't think the flow across this intercooler will be that restrictive and rob the car of 30hp and significant throttle response, but I'll keep everyone update.

[Loe]

You could find a shop that can fabricate an intake tube that will allow the coolant to flow through the tube itself to provide an cold "chamber" for the air to pass through.

[xpoweruk]

Liquid to Air Barrel Intercooler http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm

[hckymstr19]

Liquid to Air Barrel Intercooler http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm

Yea I was looking at this one, has great flow ratings for lowest resistance. http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water...6cd6a648f34c9b

[Loe]

Yea I was looking at this one, has great flow ratings for lowest resistance. http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water...6cd6a648f34c9b

water-to-air systems aren't too restrictive like an air-to-air so I think you are onto a great path. It will be a tight fit though

One thing that I've always wondered about is to cyro-freeze the inside of the airbox, if that is even possible.