S4 or RS4 for Track

[Kevin7]

Would love input here; am looking for a third car that would be reserved for track and rain/snow driving. Is it worth the extra say $10K for the RS? I used to have a B6 S4 so am somewhat familiar with the line. My other cars are an M3 and M5 and are daily drivers for my wife and I; so don't want to track-ize them and naturally neither is good when the roads ain't dry. I live in Southern California where it's sunny 98% of the time. Thanks in advance...

[BLopes07]

why not splurge get the rs4 as the daily, as its more comfortable and has better creature comforts than an old m3, and track the m3? the e46 is a great platform for any track as is without work? Not like you're going to the track in heavy rain or snow conditions that you need the awd there.

[Kevin7]

Sorry I didn't specify; I now have an F80 M3 and not wanting to spend the fortune to track that. My goal would be to upgrade the S4/RS4 however necessary to track and then swap on snows or ATs for non-track driving.


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[Cgoon009]

This is a hard question to answer but I would venture that neither will suit your needs as well as another car. While there are teams that have tracked the B6 and B7, I think you will find that the handling of the car, and its motor will pose more problems then you would like to deal with. I don't know how much experience you have, but if you are just starting out I would recommend something lighter and RWD. if you are set on an Audi, look at the B5s, non turbo. They are much cheaper to run, have a huge market for racing and parts can easily be replaced and found when you go off track. You may not be as fast, but you will definitely have fun.

If you are really set on the the B6/7 platform, I can put you in touch with my friend who tracks his RS4. He can tell you about the car and his personal experiences. Of the two, the RS4 would be better in my opinion, due the the wider tire options, different V8 config and factory suspension system already being tuned for higher performance. It will cost more to run, and part will be hard to find/ expensive if you crash. You can also talk to 0000 V8 - hes on here and has both a B6 and B5 track car.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ar-Team-Thread

My only other point would be that you probably will want something with more low end, as most tracks are on the smaller side, and you will benefit more from quick accel times and less from mass power.

[Kevin7]

^ Thanks! I know an E46 would be the ideal track car, but I still would be left w/o an option for rain/snow driving. I see your points about the RS4; and tire options is a huge plus for swapping between track and snow driving.


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[gautam]

Having driven my B6 pretty hard, I will say that there is a lot of under-steer. I re-did almost my entire front suspension but with stock parts and the stock setup is definitely geared for under-steer. The cars pretty heavy with the big V8 up front and the extra weight of a 4WD system so you'll have to put in a good bit of money to make it truly track worthy.

When in doubt, Mazda Miata. Light, nimble, very easy to customize, pretty easy to install a roll-cage in.

Do you really need to be worrying about snow and rain in CA though? The traction control system on the BMW's are pretty good.

[QIKRNU]

If you want to mitigate understeer, try a 29 mm rear sway bar. I have one for sale in the classifieds.

[Kevin7]

^ The F80 has traction issues, even in the dry. Too powerful and an overly-governing control system. True about no snow and rain here; it's more about trips to Mammoth or Tahoe.


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[gautam]

Gotcha.

Well if money's not an issue then dump your BMW daily, buy an RS7 and buy a Miata as a track car!

Or buy an RS4 and track it. Like QIKRNU says, aftermarket parts will eliminate the under-steer, just depends on how much $$ you want to put in!

[Kevin7]

^ Thanks. I do love the F80 as a DD; super fun to drive and lots of power. Was considering an STI as the AWD/track car, but I used to have one and they feel... cheap. So trying to stay German and premium. Any parts other than sways to reduce understeer?


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[Mr. Corey]

Might be better to buy a car thats already has most of the bolt ons for performance and handling since those parts can really add up quickly.

[d2a4]

Was considering an STI as the AWD/track car, but I used to have one and they feel... cheap. So trying to stay German and premium.?
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That why I came back here. Has a Saabaru and even with soup-up suspension, still not feel right, sold it, back into VAG.

[Kevin7]

That why I came back here. Has a Saabaru and even with soup-up suspension, still not feel right, sold it, back into VAG.

Right?! It's not a snobbery thing. I love Subies, but there's no getting around them feeling cheaper. And used STIs aren't much less expensive than their S4 counterparts. Felt like I was driving around in a tin can compared to a solid vehicle...


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[HamidsVikes]

I have owned a B7 S4 and now have a B7 RS4....
and tracked them both...
If the tracks you are going to are large, with long straight aways, then the RS for sure... but if its short tracks with lots of turns, it wont make much of a difference (advantage still RS4.. but not gaping)!
The RS engine is much much more reliable!
I haven't had any issues...
with S.. you will have to redo the timing chain guides at some point (unless its already been done) which costs an arm and a leg... and put you in the ball park of the RS if you have to spend the $ to do it!
I would def go with the RS as its rare, and just a awesome machine...
I love this car so much that I decided not to sell it and keep it as a secondary car to my new S6...
wanted to jump into an RS7, which I could have done so by selling the RS... but think this car (RS) is a keeper!
you wont look back and second guess the RS purchase...
But if tracking is your mail goal, Id honestly go with a smaller, lighter car!

[JimmyBones]

Straight up the B7 RS4 is a better buy than a B6/7 S4 for the track. They have fewer issues and are better suited for the track from the factory hence the RS badge. You can make a B6/7 S4 better for the track than a B7 RS4 (like I have) but you will easily spend more than the current market difference in up front purchasing price.

After you get the car then you are going to have to do maintenance to get it ready for the track because all these cars are old now. Certain things are kind of a wash depending on what you go with like tires, wheels, brakes, suspension, clutch, and other consumable parts. The RS4 brakes are really nice by the way. So much so that I had to go to RS front brakes on my B6 S4 because they just work! Just so that you know. I am currently running 265/35/18 tires (will be 275/35/18s when I wear out my current PSS) on 18x9 ET 25 wheels, RS4 front brakes (LW rotor rings), bigger 330 mm rear brakes, K&W Clubsport coilovers, all the spherical control arm bushings and sway bar end links from 034 Motorsport, the bigger RS4 Hotchkis rear sway bar, all the 034 Motorsport solid drivetrain mounts (snub cage, engine, transmission, front/rear subframe, and rear diff carrier bushing inserts), and the Apikol mounts (snub and rear diff) so don't let people sway you into thinking that you have to get a RS4 to run better parts there.

Where you really start to see a difference between these cars is with the engine components. We are going to assume that you are smart enough to do a PPI with a compression test before buying regardless of S4 or RS4 to avoid any scored cylinder wall issues.
RS4s will need a carbon clean, injector servicing, and a PCV valve replacement couldn't hurt. This isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things.
S4s will need a timing service if it has never been done and maybe valve stem seals replaced depending on how bad it is burning oil. The quotes from a shop to do this will scare most people into walking away from the car but you can DIY for a lot cheaper if you have time and the patience to do it.

I strongly recommend that if you do get a S4 or RS4 that you try to modify it to keep as much heat out of the engine as possible. Do things like install intake manifold spacers, throttle body or oil separator heater bypass, catless or piggy exhaust, etc. I see that you live in Cali but most inspectors are not going to notice intake spacers or the heater bypasses. The exhaust might be harder to work around though so that is why I mentioned piggies. These V8s run extremely hot and that heat really kills not only the performance but also the engine life.

Finally after that point both are on the same chassis and will have the similar weaknesses like curb weight and understeer that has already been mentioned. You can try to correct that with a bigger rear sway bar and/or coilovers but I have found that a front LSD really helped with understeer for me. However these are still big heavy cars that can be a lot of fun. Nothing makes me smile more than blowing away an older Turbo, GT3, etc Porsche. Can't do that with a newer Turbo or GT2, yet.

[Kevin7]

Jimmy, Hamids, and others; thanks so much. This is exactly the info I was looking for. Mainly curious how the R/S is on the track. And overall "fun" factor to drive off the track. My B6 S4 was amazing, but nothing like the driveability of the E46 M3. So I was wondering what the RS would offer over that; and how this would compare to my current M3 and M5. The AWD is naturally the practical feature, but at what cost. That said, I'll reiterate that the F80 is almost too powerful for 2WD. The nannies are incredibly invasive, but no doubt to keep the driver alive and on the road. I've heard rumors the next M5 will be AWD, simply because we're getting to the point of too much power for two wheels to control. What's odd though is that my V10 M5 getting 500+ horses feels way more manageable than the M3; perhaps because of less torque and NA vs. FI, and more weight.


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[LINDW4LL]

Another vote for the RS. It's a superior car to the S4 in every way. If you were simply looking for a track toy I'd obviously recommend something else, but I think the RS delivers a good mix of competencies given what you're looking for.

PS What's the issue with your M3 in the rain? I assume it's just you wanting something where you can extract the full performance in the wet?

[Kevin7]

Another vote for the RS. It's a superior car to the S4 in every way. If you were simply looking for a track toy I'd obviously recommend something else, but I think the RS delivers a good mix of competencies given what you're looking for.

PS What's the issue with your M3 in the rain? I assume it's just you wanting something where you can extract the full performance in the wet?

The F80 has traction issues; which is why the control system is so invasive. This is naturally accentuated in wet conditions. It could be the PSS rubber as well. There is a lot of torque and that coupled with an awkward adaptive suspension system, means "ass wiggles and comes out easily"!


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[JimmyBones]

The F80 has traction issues; which is why the control system is so invasive. This is naturally accentuated in wet conditions. It could be the PSS rubber as well. There is a lot of torque and that coupled with an awkward adaptive suspension system, means "ass wiggles and comes out easily"!


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When I drove the M3 and M4 at a BMW event at Summit Point WV, I felt a lot of understeer and then the traction control/stability control did want to interfere at times. Mind you this is with the automatic transmission and we had to leave all the nannies on because these cars were used as mules to let random people drive them and familiarize themselves with them to promote potential buyers. The PSS tires are not the most aggressive summer tire that you can run before you get to R-comps, even from Michelin. I personally like PS2s since they are like a 220 treadwear rating when compared to the PSS 300 treadwear rating. LINDW4LL and I have discussed this before because I surprised him with that comment but a large reason why the PS2s don't last as long as the PSSs is because they are so sticky and hold traction better.

[Kevin7]

When I drove the M3 and M4 at a BMW event at Summit Point WV, I felt a lot of understeer and then the traction control/stability control did want to interfere at times. Mind you this is with the automatic transmission and we had to leave all the nannies on because these cars were used as mules to let random people drive them and familiarize themselves with them to promote potential buyers. The PSS tires are not the most aggressive summer tire that you can run before you get to R-comps, even from Michelin. I personally like PS2s since they are like a 220 treadwear rating when compared to the PSS 300 treadwear rating. LINDW4LL and I have discussed this before because I surprised him with that comment but a large reason why the PS2s don't last as long as the PSSs is because they are so sticky and hold traction better.

Yes indeed; PSS ain't ideal for the F80. Even in straight-line acceleration, with the nannies off though, the arse whips left and right. Basically all of this power is hard to channel properly in the latest M3! It is super fun to drive though but can be very frustrating at times.


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[Kevin7]

I'm about to pull the trigger on an RS4. It has some upgrades (springs, brakes, tune). But what would be the first components to reinforce before considering a track day?


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[S4orgy]

Id buy a built motor & find a b6/b7 that needs a new engine. And get blower or turbo. Id assume youd spend less $ going this route and it be way faster. And cheaper to service vs rs4

[JimmyBones]

Id buy a built motor & find a b6/b7 that needs a new engine. And get blower or turbo. Id assume youd spend less $ going this route and it be way faster. And cheaper to service vs rs4

There is a big difference between saying that and doing it. The RS4 is a hell of a car overall. Now that I am older and wiser I see why it is recommended to start with a better platform from the start.

[Kevin7]

Exactly; there's a difference between optimizing a platform and frankensteining it.


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[S4orgy]

I get what your saying but idk I saw a black b7 rs4 with blue calipers & maybe a miltec exhaust in hartford a few weeks ago and i think my b6 s4 wouldve taken it had i been in my car next to him.

[FaisalJ]

I'm over in the UK, so different perspective...

I've taken my B7 RS4 on track a few times, and it was fun, but I'm not looking to do it again. To be blunt, the RS4 is too heavy, and since it's my pride and joy I worry about hitting something.

A friend and I are looking to buy a cheap track car together, and although we'll be spending peanuts (probably on a stripped out and caged Renault Clio 182, turbocharged MX5, or a E36 328), I think the principles apply to a bigger purchase.

By that, I mean that I believe the formula for track fun is lightness, balanced handling, bhp/tonne, and not having to care if you put it in a wall.

A stripped out clio is 800kg, costs a fraction of my car, parts are dirt cheap, and will corner much faster than me in my RS!


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[Hooblah]

Faisal you're spot on there. These S4's and RS4's are more GT type cars. Good for comfort and power on the road, maybe the occasional track day, but you can't rape them like a hot hatch.

[Brettannica]

This...

[Kevin7]

I get the whole "cheap car for the track thing". But then why have a car that's at least partly made for the track only driven on the street? Especially where you'll never see its full potential. Personally I have no interest driving a crap track car; the beauty of high-end sports cars is feeling that <<special something>> when you get behind the wheel. Sorry, but a Clio (or Miata) would never do that for me...


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[FaisalJ]

The point I was trying to make is that there are cars far better suited to the track than the RS4.

Most people this side of the pond wouldn't consider it "partly made for the track". Of course you can drive it on track, and it will be fun, but it'll always be a compromise as it's a relatively luxurious fast road car.

Budget aside, cheap or expensive, I still maintain that if you're considering a track only car, consider something more focused; light, nimble, and relatively powerful on a bhp/tonne basis but not the first consideration.

If I was considering something a bit more expensive, I'd be thinking about a lotus Elise/exige, a VX220, Cayman/911 or perhaps an Ariel atom!

Anyway, that's my £0.02

Whatever you get, enjoy!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-ca...-day-cars-2016

https://youtu.be/E-Bm-gmEP6E


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[S4orgy]

I'm over in the UK, so different perspective...

I've taken my B7 RS4 on track a few times, and it was fun, but I'm not looking to do it again. To be blunt, the RS4 is too heavy, and since it's my pride and joy I worry about hitting something.

A friend and I are looking to buy a cheap track car together, and although we'll be spending peanuts (probably on a stripped out and caged Renault Clio 182, turbocharged MX5, or a E36 328), I think the principles apply to a bigger purchase.

By that, I mean that I believe the formula for track fun is lightness, balanced handling, bhp/tonne, and not having to care if you put it in a wall.

A stripped out clio is 800kg, costs a fraction of my car, parts are dirt cheap, and will corner much faster than me in my RS!


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280z with rb25 or rb26

[Kevin7]

Faisal, I totally understand. I would never choose an RS4 for track only. As I mentioned in my original post, this would be also (and probably mainly) for rain/snow driving as my Ms are total crap in other-than-dry conditions. Honestly, if I were to get a dedicated track car, it would no doubt be an E46 M. These are cheap at the moment with lots of aftermarket parts.


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[FaisalJ]

Alright alright...coming back to your original question then, is a RS4 worth the extra over a S4...

Having owned a B6 S4, as well as my B7 RS4; the answer is YES. The RS is more powerful, stops a lot better, goes around corners better and just generally feels more capable at speed.

I tracked my B6 once, and I felt throughout that I was forcing it to do something it really didn't want to do.

Let me put it this way:

The B7 RS4 is Lebron. The B6 S4 is Charles Barkley, now, belly and all.


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[Kevin7]

^ Haha - nice analogy! Makes sense.


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