VCDS log of 1st - 3rd Gear pull on 93 octane file and 100% 93 octane Shell fuel

[Q5OnTheMove]

I was only able to log 1st - 3rd gear due to where I was at but had some questions on this log.
VCDS Log

• Is 17.3 to much total timing pull?
• I just filled up again and added 3 gallons of E85 (most likely E70-E75 this time of year) along with 16.5 Gallons of 93 octane. Should timing pull in cylinders go down (currently seeing 6.4 degrees with 93 octane)? I wont have a chance for a few more days to test but just curios. I read this thread which rocks, and I'm now trying to tweak and play with different configs which best run on my car. Seems with this combo I'm at 94.8 octane and 20% ethanol.
• What are people seeing when blending a few gallons of E85 in terms of total Actual PSI? I'm currently seeing a max of 15.5 psi on 100% 93 octane fuel along with 93 octane map. Hoping I gain another 1-2 psi with the blend I have in the tank now on the 93 pump file.
• Does GIAC have a specific flash for Dual Pulley out that goes with either 179 or larger crank pulley's?

If I get an upgraded crank pulley, I'd get the AWE Tuning ColdFront System. In looking at the AWE website, see this product which is compatible for the 2016 Q5. Unfortunately only the Heat Exchanger seems compatible with the Q5 as they don't list a Reservoir or Coolant Pump.

[riceboy22]

I can't answer all your questions with my 101 tuning knowledge, but here are a few notes.

You should be trying to do a full pull in 3rd or 4th and not just go WOT from 1st (e.g., go WOT from like 2500 rpm to redline in 3rd).

I'm assuming for the 17.3 you meant timing advance. More timing advance equates to more power. You should see more timing advance with higher octane gas.

You're not going to see more boost from different fuel. Most tunes keep the bypass completely shut so the SC is always producing as much boost as it can. You'll get more boost by swapping pulleys to spin the supercharger faster (and updating your tune of course to not bleed it off).

I don't believe GIAC has a dual pulley tune.

[riceboy22]

Also, for reference, here are my graphs for logging I did on my APR Stage 2.

[Q5OnTheMove]

I can't answer all your questions with my 101 tuning knowledge, but here are a few notes.

You should be trying to do a full pull in 3rd or 4th and not just go WOT from 1st (e.g., go WOT from like 2500 rpm to redline in 3rd).

I'm assuming for the 17.3 you meant timing advance. More timing advance equates to more power. You should see more timing advance with higher octane gas.

You're not going to see more boost from different fuel. Most tunes keep the bypass completely shut so the SC is always producing as much boost as it can. You'll get more boost by swapping pulleys to spin the supercharger faster (and updating your tune of course to not bleed it off).

I don't believe GIAC has a dual pulley tune.

Understood on full pull from 2,500 rpm to ~7,000 in 3rd or forth. 3rd will be more likely as i dont have a place around here for doing so in 4th gear. I understand more timing is good, but if the cyclinders are pulling back timing, is that offset, in essence meaning im losing power?

If i go with a 179 or 183mm crank, im wondering how much more actual boost would come as the requested boost is around 20psi (actual is around 15).

Hopefully GIAC puts out a dual pulley flash soon

[Q5OnTheMove]

Also, for reference, here are my graphs for logging I did on my APR Stage 2.

I assume this is the pump flash, not race?

[riceboy22]

Yes, I'm on the 93 file and running 93 pump gas.

For timing, I guess you could say you're losing power when it pulls timing, but it's doing that because it detects knock. I know that APR tunes so that on "average" fuel you should see a few degrees of timing pull. That's how they maximize power and ensure they're advancing the timing as much as possible. If you advance the timing too far (you'll have more than just a few degrees of timing pull), my understanding is the ECU will overcompensate and you'll really lose power.

I'm not sure what kind of boost you'll see with the additional pulley on the same tune, but I'm guessing the parameters will be sub-optimal even if it boosts more without bypassing (maybe running lean if I were to guess).

[jran76]

I was only able to log 1st - 3rd gear due to where I was at but had some questions on this log.
VCDS Log

• Is 17.3 to much total timing pull?
• I just filled up again and added 3 gallons of E85 (most likely E70-E75 this time of year) along with 16.5 Gallons of 93 octane. Should timing pull in cylinders go down (currently seeing 6.4 degrees with 93 octane)? I wont have a chance for a few more days to test but just curios. I read this thread which rocks, and I'm now trying to tweak and play with different configs which best run on my car. Seems with this combo I'm at 94.8 octane and 20% ethanol.
• What are people seeing when blending a few gallons of E85 in terms of total Actual PSI? I'm currently seeing a max of 15.5 psi on 100% 93 octane fuel along with 93 octane map. Hoping I gain another 1-2 psi with the blend I have in the tank now on the 93 pump file.
• Does GIAC have a specific flash for Dual Pulley out that goes with either 179 or larger crank pulley's?

If I get an upgraded crank pulley, I'd get the AWE Tuning ColdFront System. In looking at the AWE website, see this product which is compatible for the 2016 Q5. Unfortunately only the Heat Exchanger seems compatible with the Q5 as they don't list a Reservoir or Coolant Pump.

Your timing pull is a little high. The e85 mixed in will definitely help. Keeping the IATs down will too. Boost is so dependent on conditions and elevation, it's hard to really compare. Your main focus should be on getting more timing/less knock correction, and better fuel and lower IAT's will do that.

Do you have a modified intake? Your air mass is a little low too, and a better intake would help too....

[Q5OnTheMove]

Your timing pull is a little high. The e85 mixed in will definitely help. Keeping the IATs down will too. Boost is so dependent on conditions and elevation, it's hard to really compare. Your main focus should be on getting more timing/less knock correction, and better fuel and lower IAT's will do that.

Do you have a modified intake? Your air mass is a little low too, and a better intake would help too....

I have the stock intake. My fear running a new intake would be even though it allows more air, the majority of ones i see dont retain the stock housing pulling air from front of the car. Instead they pull from engine bay their air and its a lot hotter air coming in (albeit more air coming though, i guess a sacrifice)

I thought 93 octane shell was great but from my logs i might have gotten a bad batch. I havent had a chance to relog with 3 gallons of E85 which currently reside in my tank mixed with 93 octane. I talked to GIAC after sending them my logs and there recomending logging a few new runs on new tank of gas.

Hopefully i get to do that soon as i take uber to work daily (benefits of living 1 mile from work).

As per cooling, AWE has a coldfront system for my car but it only includes the Heat exchanger and reservoir. No pump swap from stock. Im wondering if the stock pump can push the extra fluid around or might get bogged down. I guess ill give awe a call tommorow to clarify there system.

Talked to GIAC and there working there Dual Pulley update. Fingers crossed so that Loe works his magic and we have the update soon. Either way i need to fix this before upgrading.

[jran76]

I have the stock intake. My fear running a new intake would be even though it allows more air, the majority of ones i see dont retain the stock housing pulling air from front of the car. Instead they pull from engine bay their air and its a lot hotter air coming in (albeit more air coming though, i guess a sacrifice)

I thought 93 octane shell was great but from my logs i might have gotten a bad batch. I havent had a chance to relog with 3 gallons of E85 which currently reside in my tank mixed with 93 octane. I talked to GIAC after sending them my logs and there recomending logging a few new runs on new tank of gas.

Hopefully i get to do that soon as i take uber to work daily (benefits of living 1 mile from work).

As per cooling, AWE has a coldfront system for my car but it only includes the Heat exchanger and reservoir. No pump swap from stock. Im wondering if the stock pump can push the extra fluid around or might get bogged down. I guess ill give awe a call tommorow to clarify there system.

Talked to GIAC and there working there Dual Pulley update. Fingers crossed so that Loe works his magic and we have the update soon. Either way i need to fix this before upgrading.

I'm not too familiar with the Q5 intake, but it may be possible to just modify the box, and add a new/better filter and intake tube to slightly improve the performance. Several S4 guys have done that with improved performance.

I thought the same thing as Shell was my regular gas, but once I started logging I realized the quality of even the major top tier brands is all over the place. Very hit or miss. I have no doubt the timing/knock correction will improve with 3-4 gallons of e85 mixed in. I would log fuel trims just to make sure everything looks OK (I try to keep long-term trims in the 10% range if I'm mixing).

If the heat exchanger will fit, that is the way to go. The HX will definitely work without the pump. The pump is just another added benefit, but not required. In order of benefit, a larger heat exchanger will make the biggest difference, then a larger reservoir (like what Alpha, APR, and PLM offer), then the pump, and lastly divorcing the system (this is essentially what the AWE and Revo reservoirs do as I don't think they add enough capacity to make a huge difference). More surface area and more coolant capacity will have the biggest impacts in terms of cooling....

[BlackSVT]

I have the stock intake. My fear running a new intake would be even though it allows more air, the majority of ones i see dont retain the stock housing pulling air from front of the car. Instead they pull from engine bay their air and its a lot hotter air coming in (albeit more air coming though, i guess a sacrifice)

I think there has been some documented success here on AZ with modding the stock box for better airflow and replacing the airbox-->TB resonator contraption with the 034 Motorsport hose. I am not finding the S/Q5-specific thread right now, but I know this was 1 of the original referenced threads on B8-S4:
S4 AirboxMod

Edit: I was slow to hit "Post" ^^^^^^^^^ What jran said

[Q5OnTheMove]

I would log fuel trims just to make sure everything looks OK (I try to keep long-term trims in the 10% range if I'm mixing).

I'll log a few runs to help figure out the problems. first I'll log:
Group 24: Engine speed (rpm)
Group 2: Accelerator position (%)
Group 11: Charge air pressure specified value (hPa)
Group 230: Intake manifold pressure; absolute (hPa)
Group 134: Air mass (kg/h)
Group 226: Ignition angle; actual (degrees)
Group 228: Intake air temperature (in degrees C)
Group 480: IGA_AD_1_KNK_0
Group 483: IGA_AD_1_KNK_3
Group 616: RFP_AV (bypass valve %)

the next runs I'll log:
018: Engine speed (in RPM)
253- Misfires cylinder 1 per 1000 rpm 0
259- Misfires cylinder 4 per 1000 rpm 0
238- Lambda probes actual; bank1 0.9971
246- Lambda probes specified; bank1 0.9971
47- Long-term adaptation; bank 1
63- Short-term adaptation; bank 1
609- TI_1_HOM[0]
610- TI_1_HOM[3]
194 Knock sensor voltage
197 Knock sensor voltage

Hopefully between these sets of logs I'll have the problem solved.

[Q5OnTheMove]

So it seems after mixing 3 gallons of E85 with 93 octane fuel, my 93 pump file is no longer pulling timing as much as before.

I did a bunch of logging on multiple WOT's. The results are found below. Some logs are from 1-4 while others are of just 3rd.
The problem I have is when changing to manual mode, and lowering RPM to around 2,500 I would floor the gas and then car decides to lower a gear to 2nd (even though its in manual mode). How do you guys stop this behavior?

Some Notes:

1. No Misfires occurring
2. Less timing pull then on 93 octane alone.
3. Have no clue what to make of Injector Duty Cycle, Knock, and A/F ratio numbers.

3 Gal E85 with 16 Gal 93 octane Fuel Parameter Logs

3 Gal E85 with 16 Gal 93 octane Timing / PSI Logs

3 Gal E85 with 16 Gal 93 octane Timing / PSI Log #2

[Q5OnTheMove]

And so it continues. Just read to see if I had any codes from doing a bunch of runs yesterday, it seems a code was thrown. Only about 2,300 miles on the odometer. "Low Pressure Fuel Regulation" soft error. From looking at the below message, which value is out of specification and how is it fixed?

1 Fault Found:
6183 - Low Pressure Fuel regulation
P310B 00 [096] - Fuel Pressure Outside Specification
Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 3599 km
Date: 2016.10.22
Time: 16:19:40

Engine speed: 4398.00 /min
Normed load value: 45.1 %
Vehicle speed: 111 km/h
Coolant temperature: 92 °C
Intake air temperature: 23 °C
Ambient air pressure: 990 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 13.609 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 37
Engine speed: actual: 4384 /min
MAF_ENVD: 446.65881 mg/stroke
Coolant temperature (unfiltered): 92.25 °C
T_AST_ENVD: 925.20 s
FUP_EFP_ENVD: 6819.14 hPa
Battery voltage: 13.710938 V

Readiness: 0000 0000

[S-Fore]

If you do the AWE Coldfront you will need to do a few minor things. Use an upper radiator hose from the B8.5 S4 (different bend angle) and source a larger end cap where the system divorces. Otherwise, straight install. An upgraded pump is possible as I believe that @Colby7 is running an AMS setup. Maybe you can ask him and he can chime in as to what has to be customized, if anything, to make it work.

[Q5OnTheMove]

If you do the AWE Coldfront you will need to do a few minor things. Use an upper radiator hose from the B8.5 S4 (different bend angle) and source a larger end cap where the system divorces. Otherwise, straight install. An upgraded pump is possible as I believe that @Colby7 is running an AMS setup. Maybe you can ask him and he can chime in as to what has to be customized, if anything, to make it work.

Yeah, I sent a private message to Colby and he was super helpful, answering right away.

[Q5OnTheMove]

Bringing this back from the dead as not to start another thread.

I compiled a few new logs. The only one I can tell that seems fine is the Default log which only in a few spots show's timing pull.

All these logs were are done with the Fuel Mixture tested on a Holley 26-147 Fuel Tester. It came out to ~E27 (used Sunoco E85 which tested at E90 and Shell 93 octane).

VCDS Logs:

• Default Log in acceleration from Gear 1-5
• Fuel Pressure Log in 4th Gear
• Fuel Trim Log in 44th Gear

I only log Cylinders 2 & 5 for timing pull because the other 4 cylinders never really show knock (especially 0 and 3 which come up clean nearly always).

Some updates since January:

1. I swapped out the LPFP for E85 version off the same pump as before I have errors thrown on anything over E20.
2. Installed the 034 Motorsports intake hose
3. Installed the AWE Coldfront Heat Exchanger.

• Does the fuel system look like its fine and keeping up?
• I plan to shrink the Spark Plug in Cyclinder #6 from .028 (which plugs 1-5 are at), to .027 and run another set of logs. I cant imagine having Spark plugs 1-5 set to .028 while #6 is set to .027 will create an issues, will it?

[BG SQ5]

What was your DA when you did these? Seems like it was high based on those boosts.

I don't know what to think about cylinder 6...it's so clean in 4th and 5th gear though. Gapping it slightly less is perfectly fine though...assuming it cleans up the timing.

I'm not as experienced with the fuel logs. I've only just stating running ~20 last tank and haven't done a ton of logging with it yet. However, your bank 2 fuel trim seems a little light for E27, especially compared to bank 1. This might have something to do with cylinder 6 ignition or maybe there are both a result of another issue. I've heard of other's reporting bank 1 and 2 being that far off too though. Might have better luck posting this in the S4 forum or PM'ing someone like Loe.

Overall, everything looks pretty decent, and great job with the data!

PS- happy to see you have rogue -48s that pop up in cylinder 3 as well, haha.

[Q5OnTheMove]

What was your DA when you did these? Seems like it was high based on those boosts.

I don't know what to think about cylinder 6...it's so clean in 4th and 5th gear though. Gapping it slightly less is perfectly fine though...assuming it cleans up the timing.

I'm not as experienced with the fuel logs. I've only just stating running ~20 last tank and haven't done a ton of logging with it yet. However, your bank 2 fuel trim seems a little light for E27, especially compared to bank 1. This might have something to do with cylinder 6 ignition or maybe there are both a result of another issue. I've heard of other's reporting bank 1 and 2 being that far off too though. Might have better luck posting this in the S4 forum or PM'ing someone like Loe.

Overall, everything looks pretty decent, and great job with the data!

PS- happy to see you have rogue -48s that pop up in cylinder 3 as well, haha.

My DA during these runs were ~1500. It doesn't seem like my DA is the problem, but I could be mistaken. I'm curious though if the Fuel Trim and Fuel Pressure logs look healthy.
Reading through many threads (especially Loe's comments here), leads me to believe minimizing the Gap would fix my issue.

I plan to shrink cylinder #6 Plug Gap from .028 to .027 and rerun these logs. Fingers crossed i have time this weekend to do so.


Thanks

[BG SQ5]

My DA during these runs were ~1500. It doesn't seem like my DA is the problem, but I could be mistaken. I'm curious though if the Fuel Trim and Fuel Pressure logs look healthy.
Reading through many threads (especially Loe's comments here), leads me to believe minimizing the Gap would fix my issue.

I plan to shrink cylinder #6 Plug Gap from .028 to .027 and rerun these logs. Fingers crossed i have time this weekend to do so.


Thanks

I was just asking out of curiosity about the DA. I wasn't implying it was the root of any 'problem', but it could mean lower boost and lower STFTs. Your fuel trim is close to zero up top (bank 2 actually goes negative above 6500) when you add the LTFT and STFT. I found just that interesting...along with the 5-8% difference between bank 1 and 2.

I'm familiar with most of Loe's logging posts. What throws me for a loop is that your 4th gear was so clean for ignition, but you're still getting a sizable difference in the total fuel trim between the banks in 4th. I'd log take note of the LTFTs, and then try doing a set of logs like this to get a better idea of each cylinder. Or, at least get the engine speed, STFTs, global ignition, and a set of IGG for all cylinders in one log. Then, do the same for IGA maybe. I still don't completely understand IGA vs. IGG (not sure anyone does), but Loe has mentioned several times not to overlook the IGG.

[Q5OnTheMove]

I was just asking out of curiosity about the DA. I wasn't implying it was the root of any 'problem', but it could mean lower boost and lower STFTs. Your fuel trim is close to zero up top (bank 2 actually goes negative above 6500) when you add the LTFT and STFT. I found just that interesting...along with the 5-8% difference between bank 1 and 2.

I'm familiar with most of Loe's logging posts. What throws me for a loop is that your 4th gear was so clean for ignition, but you're still getting a sizable difference in the total fuel trim between the banks in 4th. I'd log take note of the LTFTs, and then try doing a set of logs like this to get a better idea of each cylinder. Or, at least get the engine speed, STFTs, global ignition, and a set of IGG for all cylinders in one log. Then, do the same for IGA maybe. I still don't completely understand IGA vs. IGG (not sure anyone does), but Loe has mentioned several times not to overlook the IGG.

Good find. Will add those to my logging this weekend. I'll then shrink the spark size and retest everything again (hopefully getting a fully clean set of logs).

[Q5OnTheMove]

So this weekend I will shrink the gap of my spark plug from .028 to .027.

I forgot to ask, but how do I know which spark plug is number 0 - 5 in the logs but opening the hood of my car? I searched audizine, and a few other forms and see conflicting info.

Thanks again.

[BG SQ5]

Rear
(2)(5)
(1)(4)
(0)(3)
Front


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[SQive]

Gunter must have come up with that.
Yeah. . .it was either him or Helmut.

[Q5OnTheMove]

Awesome! Thanks BG!


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[Q5OnTheMove]

Got a chance to log both Race Maps and Gas Map on E30-E31 of my Stage 2 GIAC tunes based on using a Holley Fuel Tester. Also changed spark plug gap size from .028 to .027 in hopes of less timing pull.

Below are the results:

1. E30 Race Map Logs
2. E30 Race Map - Fuel Trim 4th.xls
3. E30 Race Map - Fuel Pressure 4th.xls
4. E30 Race Map - All Cyl Timing, Boost, Air Temp (for Logging) 4th Pulls.xls
5. E30 Race Map - All Cyl Timing, Boost, Air Temp (for Logging) 3rd Pulls.xls
6. E30 Gas Map Logs
7. E30 Gas Map - Fuel Trim 4th.xls
8. E30 Gas Map - Fuel Trim 3rd.xls
9. E30 Gas Map - All Cyl Timing, Boost, Air Temp (for Logging) 4th.xls
10. E30 Gas Map - All Cyl Timing, Boost, Air Temp (for Logging) 3rd.xls

A Couple questions:

1. I see many on this forum as well as GIAC recomend E30 as a way to run on the Race Map. I'm running E30-E31 on based on using a Holley Fuel Tester. Do my logs (timing pull, fuel trim, and fuel pressue) look ok?
2. Going from E25 to E30 still doesnt seem to solve the timing pull in 3rd gear. Any recomendations to lower this timing pull?
3. Is the "Long term adaptation of mixture formation bank" value of over 24% too high to safely be run consistantly or should I lower my Ethanol back to E25?

Thanks

[BG SQ5]

1. Without engine speed, it's difficult to do too much analysis. I can get a good idea of the different pulls from the time stamp and bypass, but it's impossible to see for sure if the corrections are at similar rpms on repeat pulls or what's exactly is going on. If it was my car, that's too much timing pull on the race map for me though. However, the all your short term trims (except log 8) seem to be implying that your E content dropped off, which would obviously lead to more knock. For reference, I was running ~10% LT and ~10% ST (20% total) in 4th gear on E25-30 last week.

2. Hmm- so cylinder 6 is still presenting issues only in 3rd gear regardless of which map. That's odd.

3. Where your LT is high, the ST is countering it. Your total trim is under 15%...no big deal. Once again- it seems your E% has dropped off and the ST was pulling fuel to compensate. From what I gather, we can run the trims up as high as the fuel pressure/ecu will let us. You're get a CEL/fault code and/or see the fuel pressure dropping.

I'm moving to a real-time ECA paired with a P3 gauge next month. I'm tired of playing the guessing game with my E%. Unless you all but empty the tank and all but fill it up every time, it's easy to be off. Also, I usually only fill up with ~6 gallons total during track season (to stay under 1/2 tank), and that makes getting the percentage even harder to get right (since I'm typically usually a fuel jug for the E85). Just testing the E85 at the pump (with a tester similar to yours) isn't exact enough for me. At the end of the day, I want to know what it's at at the fuel rail. That information is key to compliment the data from the logs. I assume I'm getting good mixing in the fuel tank, and if I always put 1 gal E85 and 4 gal E10, I should stay right at E25. However, I just don't know for sure.