TD1 Conversation with dealer

[Nokers]

Hey all,

I've been dealing with my dealership a lot on my 2015 S6 trying to get an annoying key problem fixed, and had a conversation with the service team today about TD1.

For Audi Canada, they said that since the VW settlement, they have had all warranty claims for TD1 cars denied by HQ. They said they used to be able to work around it if they knew customers had legit problems, but no more. As of now, the stance is to deny warranty on anything from wheel bearings on up - so pretty much everything. However, he said that VW recognizes that they are catching too much within TD1 and are now working to separate risks into different categories, to not punish customers for problems not related strictly to ECU tunes. Our discussion began around possibly putting an AWE exhaust on my car and how they would treat it warranty wise, and then we spoke about the rest.

Secondly, he said that they no longer scan the ECU to see if it is stock. Instead, they are able to count the number of flashes an ECU has had, and if it is more than what they have a record of at the dealership, you can be flagged TD1. This is to catch people flashing back to stock before getting service done...if they have done it for you four times but you've been flashed 10 times, they will catch you on that.

I'm new to Audi's, I've read a ton of stuff on the forums but I apologize if any of this has been posted before or is widely known. I very much trust the guys that I'm dealing with as I'm friends outside the car business with several. And if I'm totally wrong on this, well, it is only something I was told...the definition of hearsay.

[aluthman]

Get a spare ECU with an immobilizer defeat and swap your original in for trips to the dealer? I highly doubt they would actually open the ecu cover to check the security screws.

[luv2sleep]

Hey all,

I've been dealing with my dealership a lot on my 2015 S6 trying to get an annoying key problem fixed, and had a conversation with the service team today about TD1.

For Audi Canada, they said that since the VW settlement, they have had all warranty claims for TD1 cars denied by HQ. They said they used to be able to work around it if they knew customers had legit problems, but no more. As of now, the stance is to deny warranty on anything from wheel bearings on up - so pretty much everything. However, he said that VW recognizes that they are catching too much within TD1 and are now working to separate risks into different categories, to not punish customers for problems not related strictly to ECU tunes. Our discussion began around possibly putting an AWE exhaust on my car and how they would treat it warranty wise, and then we spoke about the rest.

Secondly, he said that they no longer scan the ECU to see if it is stock. Instead, they are able to count the number of flashes an ECU has had, and if it is more than what they have a record of at the dealership, you can be flagged TD1. This is to catch people flashing back to stock before getting service done...if they have done it for you four times but you've been flashed 10 times, they will catch you on that.

I'm new to Audi's, I've read a ton of stuff on the forums but I apologize if any of this has been posted before or is widely known. I very much trust the guys that I'm dealing with as I'm friends outside the car business with several. And if I'm totally wrong on this, well, it is only something I was told...the definition of hearsay.

Is this the same thing as the "counter"? If so, doesn't the tuner already have the capability to reset or set the counter to the desired number? Isn't this the reason why most tuners have your original ECU scan on file?

[DGVR6]

Is this the same thing as the "counter"? If so, doesn't the tuner already have the capability to reset or set the counter to the desired number? Isn't this the reason why most tuners have your original ECU scan on file?

From Sean@apr

"The flash counter is overwritten every time the car is flashed. Our software (while on the ECU), simply replaces it with the value we tell it to use when the car is flashed back to stock. When you get performance software again, the counter will increment. But, our flashing tool stores your original value and will put that back in when you flash back to stock."

[MadAboutCars]

Unfortunately Unitronic doesn't do that. My flash counter keeps incrementing. Heck, they don't even clear all of the errors the flash created. Erm!

[luv2sleep]

From Sean@apr

"The flash counter is overwritten every time the car is flashed. Our software (while on the ECU), simply replaces it with the value we tell it to use when the car is flashed back to stock. When you get performance software again, the counter will increment. But, our flashing tool stores your original value and will put that back in when you flash back to stock."

Exactly! So what's to worry?

[MadAboutCars]

Exactly! So what's to worry?

I think APR is the only one that sets the counter. It's not even settable using VCDS.

[saxon]

I think APR is the only one that sets the counter. It's not even settable using VCDS.

i dont see the flash counter as the determining factor. plenty of other tunes out there that don't reset it and still no td1 after being flashed back to stock

[DGVR6]

When I had Unitronic, I noticed my flash counter just kept going up.. Lol total flash was about 7 times.
The dealer usually never plugs my car in for any work, I just tell them this is what I think is wrong, they'll look into it and honor it.
The only thing major that was done was pcv update and piston/rings, they had to hook the computer up for that.

Audi wants a spec/actual scan on all warranty work being performed now so I'm not sure if a spec/actual was done last year when they had to do that.

Now I have no clue exactly what they look for in the scan, but if any bit of information is different, I'm sure it'll cause a flag.

[luv2sleep]

Hey all,

I've been dealing with my dealership a lot on my 2015 S6 trying to get an annoying key problem fixed, and had a conversation with the service team today about TD1.

For Audi Canada, they said that since the VW settlement, they have had all warranty claims for TD1 cars denied by HQ. They said they used to be able to work around it if they knew customers had legit problems, but no more. As of now, the stance is to deny warranty on anything from wheel bearings on up - so pretty much everything. However, he said that VW recognizes that they are catching too much within TD1 and are now working to separate risks into different categories, to not punish customers for problems not related strictly to ECU tunes. Our discussion began around possibly putting an AWE exhaust on my car and how they would treat it warranty wise, and then we spoke about the rest.

Secondly, he said that they no longer scan the ECU to see if it is stock. Instead, they are able to count the number of flashes an ECU has had, and if it is more than what they have a record of at the dealership, you can be flagged TD1. This is to catch people flashing back to stock before getting service done...if they have done it for you four times but you've been flashed 10 times, they will catch you on that.

I'm new to Audi's, I've read a ton of stuff on the forums but I apologize if any of this has been posted before or is widely known. I very much trust the guys that I'm dealing with as I'm friends outside the car business with several. And if I'm totally wrong on this, well, it is only something I was told...the definition of hearsay.

According to this poster, Audi will be looking at the counter numbers. If this is indeed true, Audi is really on a witch haunt!
Cars and all devices are built with a safety factor in mind. For example, many aircraft parts have a 30% or more safety factor. I've studied engineering in college but never used it to put food on the table. Audi and all other manufacturers use this to their advantage. Audi is no different, hence they tweak their cars every few years to produce more efficiency and power. Guess what the tuners are doing? Exactly! It basically comes down to money and they want it in their pockets and not others. As I've said before, Audi has got to be the most mod-unfriendly automaker out there. Quite frankly, I'm turned off by the way they are handling their misfortune and errors. Keep it up and they've lost one more customer for life!

[Nokers]

According to this poster, Audi will be looking at the counter numbers. If this is indeed true, Audi is really on a witch haunt!
Cars and all devices are built with a safety factor in mind. For example, many aircraft parts have a 30% or more safety factor. I've studied engineering in college but never used it to put food on the table. Audi and all other manufacturers use this to their advantage. Audi is no different, hence they tweak their cars every few years to produce more efficiency and power. Guess what the tuners are doing? Exactly! It basically comes down to money and they want it in their pockets and not others. As I've said before, Audi has got to be the most mod-unfriendly automaker out there. Quite frankly, I'm turned off by the way they are handling their misfortune and errors. Keep it up and they've lost one more customer for life!

I've never touched an ECU and a lot of what I'm reading on the forums here is new info. So I did my best to repeat exactly what I heard today.
The dealership I go to is a joint VW/Audi dealer in the same building. They are very friendly with tuners with all the Golfs they sell. They even host a VW/Audi meet every year to show off the work you've done. So I think that if they are having an increased amount of trouble getting warranty work approved, it's because of their head office, and not how they feel at the dealer.

[luv2sleep]

I've never touched an ECU and a lot of what I'm reading on the forums here is new info. So I did my best to repeat exactly what I heard today.
The dealership I go to is a joint VW/Audi dealer in the same building. They are very friendly with tuners with all the Golfs they sell. They even host a VW/Audi meet every year to show off the work you've done. So I think that if they are having an increased amount of trouble getting warranty work approved, it's because of their head office, and not how they feel at the dealer.

I agree with you 100% that it's VW corporate coming down with these mandates and not the individual dealerships. It's a shame that they have to handle this issue in such a manner. I understand their thought process but they are putting themselves on some slippery slopes.

[DGVR6]

Well not surprised.. It's just a part of risk assessment and internal control.

They found an opportunity and going forth with it.
How many people would actually go forth with the magnuson moss warranty act?

[luv2sleep]

Well not surprised.. It's just a part of risk assessment and internal control.

They found an opportunity and going forth with it.
How many people would actually go forth with the magnuson moss warranty act?

I hate lawsuits and especially don't care for lawyers! Btw, I have enough lawyers in the family to fill up the bottom of a small lake.
That's what I mean by "slippery slopes" that VW is marching towards. We have a very liberal society as a whole. Just wait until evil Hillary gets in the office and the shit will really hit the fan. I digress. With VW's shoddy track record and enough pissed off consumers, they'll be looking at a hefty class action lawsuit, IMHO.

[DGVR6]

Exactly what I'm thinking , but I'm sure for whatever reason they figure that the benefits outweighs that.

VW has always been known to practice shady crap. I remember 10 years ago the 3.6 v6 had a bad batch of bolts that caused catastrophic engine failure. There was a class m8.8 bolt holding the oil pump that would back out and basically destroy the engine. No recall, no TSB, nothing. VW just rode it out until warranty expired and have those guys driving around in ticking timing bomb.

It was replaced with 10.6 bolt in later models.
Screw the customers, it's all about their investors

[luv2sleep]

I'm on my third Audi and I've been very happy so far but VW is a pretty shady organization. Sad to see their shittiness passed onto their customers.

[yeuchau]

But there is no guarantee that dealer won't find out even flash back and counter reset.
Agent47 can give a full story on that.

From Sean@apr

"The flash counter is overwritten every time the car is flashed. Our software (while on the ECU), simply replaces it with the value we tell it to use when the car is flashed back to stock. When you get performance software again, the counter will increment. But, our flashing tool stores your original value and will put that back in when you flash back to stock."

[DGVR6]

I've heard.. There is something in the spec actual scan that they're looking for or noticing that's different, the flash counter can be one of many things.

Maybe some guys are flashing to stock and running into the dealer right after? Readiness codes aren't ready?
Long term data missing (ECU hasn't completely adapt)? I don't know.
Honestly it's wierd how some guys can get away while others don't.

[yeuchau]

I have had dealer replace water pump and engine mounts (2 separate occasions, march and sept), and I did flash the car back to stock, whether if the counters are reset back or not, but I normally drive the car for like a week before I bring it in.

[Scooter1]

Hey all,

I've been dealing with my dealership a lot on my 2015 S6 trying to get an annoying key problem fixed, and had a conversation with the service team today about TD1.

For Audi Canada, they said that since the VW settlement, they have had all warranty claims for TD1 cars denied by HQ. They said they used to be able to work around it if they knew customers had legit problems, but no more. As of now, the stance is to deny warranty on anything from wheel bearings on up - so pretty much everything. However, he said that VW recognizes that they are catching too much within TD1 and are now working to separate risks into different categories, to not punish customers for problems not related strictly to ECU tunes. Our discussion began around possibly putting an AWE exhaust on my car and how they would treat it warranty wise, and then we spoke about the rest.

Secondly, he said that they no longer scan the ECU to see if it is stock. Instead, they are able to count the number of flashes an ECU has had, and if it is more than what they have a record of at the dealership, you can be flagged TD1. This is to catch people flashing back to stock before getting service done...if they have done it for you four times but you've been flashed 10 times, they will catch you on that.

I'm new to Audi's, I've read a ton of stuff on the forums but I apologize if any of this has been posted before or is widely known. I very much trust the guys that I'm dealing with as I'm friends outside the car business with several. And if I'm totally wrong on this, well, it is only something I was told...the definition of hearsay.

Curious what he said regarding the AWE or any other aftermarket exhaust? If they are getting that strict as to flag for a new exhaust I would honestly move away from Audi.


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[Nokers]

Curious what he said regarding the AWE or any other aftermarket exhaust? If they are getting that strict as to flag for a new exhaust I would honestly move away from Audi.


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From his perspective, no problems with exhaust. Different than getting flagged TD1. His advice, and he said that it's always been his advice, is that 9 out of 10 times an exhaust won't cause warranty issues. He looked at the AWE touring system and saw no issues.
Speaking to another guy there who's a former service manager, he said the issue you can get is that if you get a check engine light you're going to run into bigger shop time bills if they have to do anything to eliminate the exhaust as the problem. I think he's just being overly cautious with his advice to me, though.

[bonafyd]

Curious what he said regarding the AWE or any other aftermarket exhaust? If they are getting that strict as to flag for a new exhaust I would honestly move away from Audi.


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I don't know about the OP's dealership or VW/Audi as a whole but my car has Awe exhaust on it and I actually went to the dealer 2weeks a go and my exhaust wasn't an issue. I was even asked if the car was fllashed because they didn't want to grenade my warranty..
So I guess it's safe to say an exhaust system alone won't TD1 your warranty.

[rspengle]

I'm curious if Unitronic is planning to update their methods so that they too can over right the flash counter....? Would help provide piece of mind for those of us who chose uni over APR for the flash at home option.

[Scooter1]

I don't know about the OP's dealership or VW/Audi as a whole but my car has Awe exhaust on it and I actually went to the dealer 2weeks a go and my exhaust wasn't an issue. I was even asked if the car was fllashed because they didn't want to grenade my warranty..
So I guess it's safe to say an exhaust system alone won't TD1 your warranty.

Thanks for the response. I had AWE on my previous A7 and considering it on my current S7 but if I do I will discuss with dealer prior.


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[Djpeaksd]

Ok lets all calm down! I have seen post like this time after time on here. The bottom line is we do not know what Audi is looking at when they hook your car up for a spec actual. What we do know is that it's a roll of the dice and plenty of people have been flagged and plenty of people haven't. In fact plenty of people have been flagged who are APR (which is the only tuner I know reseting the flash counter). We all know the risks with modifying our cars and should assume its a real possibility to get flagged.

As for the bolt ons, Exhaust, intake etc. I put my intake to stock on my first visit and my service advisor told me "you definitely didn't need to do that". I think having a good relationship with an advisor and being honest with him is the best road to go down. If you really have an advisor flagging your car for a damn intake or exhaust, you simply took your car to the wrong place.

When I went for my first service I brought 2 dozen donuts from the best donut shop in Encinitas for my advisor and all of his guys. I then told him I want to tune my car and asked him what he thought. He told me as long as I flash back to stock before the visit we should be good and he won't plug the car in unless it needed to be for warranty work and then he would tell me before hand. This is no guarantee however I now have a relationship with this guy and I truly feel he wouldn't try to screw me over just to screw me over.

If we modify our cars there are plenty of variables out of our control but what we can control is the tune we pick the service advisor we pick and the relationship we develop with him.

[Ze_Nardo6]

If we modify our cars there are plenty of variables out of our control but what we can control is the tune we pick the service advisor we pick and the relationship we develop with him.

This is what it boils down to...your service advisor can make or break your plans for your car

[Gonzoe11]

I was at the dealer this week with the wife's Q5 and I spoke to my 2 SA's there, both great dudes who are no strangers to mods. They asked me if I had any plans for the S7 knowing my history with the old S6, S5 and RS5. I told them I was holding off for now except for the HRE wheels as it seems Audi has been throwing out TD1's more frequently. They agreed it was true and AoA mostly cares about the ECU mods and will deny any warranty claims that they can attribute to the ECU tune. They said they have never had an issue with a claim on a car with a modified exhaust, sway bars, wheels etc.
doesn't sound like your AWE plans will cause an issue.


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[Anthony]

Guys, I've got a question related to the this topic. OP, I apologize in advance for hijacking your thread, but I do want your opinion as well.

If Audi corporate became actively involved in the Audizine Forums, IE addressing warranty issues and answering general questions asked of them, would you see that as a positive or negative thing? Do you feel it would benefit your experience here, or hinder your ability to have open discussions with each other?

Just curious.

[Scooter1]

Ok lets all calm down! I have seen post like this time after time on here. The bottom line is we do not know what Audi is looking at when they hook your car up for a spec actual. What we do know is that it's a roll of the dice and plenty of people have been flagged and plenty of people haven't. In fact plenty of people have been flagged who are APR (which is the only tuner I know reseting the flash counter). We all know the risks with modifying our cars and should assume its a real possibility to get flagged.

As for the bolt ons, Exhaust, intake etc. I put my intake to stock on my first visit and my service advisor told me "you definitely didn't need to do that". I think having a good relationship with an advisor and being honest with him is the best road to go down. If you really have an advisor flagging your car for a damn intake or exhaust, you simply took your car to the wrong place.

When I went for my first service I brought 2 dozen donuts from the best donut shop in Encinitas for my advisor and all of his guys. I then told him I want to tune my car and asked him what he thought. He told me as long as I flash back to stock before the visit we should be good and he won't plug the car in unless it needed to be for warranty work and then he would tell me before hand. This is no guarantee however I now have a relationship with this guy and I truly feel he wouldn't try to screw me over just to screw me over.

If we modify our cars there are plenty of variables out of our control but what we can control is the tune we pick the service advisor we pick and the relationship we develop with him.

Well said


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[luv2sleep]

Ok lets all calm down! I have seen post like this time after time on here. The bottom line is we do not know what Audi is looking at when they hook your car up for a spec actual. What we do know is that it's a roll of the dice and plenty of people have been flagged and plenty of people haven't. In fact plenty of people have been flagged who are APR (which is the only tuner I know reseting the flash counter). We all know the risks with modifying our cars and should assume its a real possibility to get flagged.

As for the bolt ons, Exhaust, intake etc. I put my intake to stock on my first visit and my service advisor told me "you definitely didn't need to do that". I think having a good relationship with an advisor and being honest with him is the best road to go down. If you really have an advisor flagging your car for a damn intake or exhaust, you simply took your car to the wrong place.

When I went for my first service I brought 2 dozen donuts from the best donut shop in Encinitas for my advisor and all of his guys. I then told him I want to tune my car and asked him what he thought. He told me as long as I flash back to stock before the visit we should be good and he won't plug the car in unless it needed to be for warranty work and then he would tell me before hand. This is no guarantee however I now have a relationship with this guy and I truly feel he wouldn't try to screw me over just to screw me over.

If we modify our cars there are plenty of variables out of our control but what we can control is the tune we pick the service advisor we pick and the relationship we develop with him.

I'm calm, I'm calm Broah! Hey DJ, wazzup?!?!
I'm down with the local dealership/SA. The issue I have is with VW/Audi corporate as it seems like they are taking control of this whole issue. My understanding is that when a scan generates a TD1 code, it is automatically transmitted to the corporate server, right? If so, the local SA/dealership's hands are tied. I think that is what the OP was getting at. I don't think any amount of world's greatest doughnuts are going to "shmoosh" things over. Btw, Voodoo Doughnuts in Portland, OR are the best!

[Djpeaksd]

I'm calm, I'm calm Broah! Hey DJ, wazzup?!?!
I'm down with the local dealership/SA. The issue I have is with VW/Audi corporate as it seems like they are taking control of this whole issue. My understanding is that when a scan generates a TD1 code, it is automatically transmitted to the corporate server, right? If so, the local SA/dealership's hands are tied. I think that is what the OP was getting at. I don't think any amount of world's greatest doughnuts are going to "shmoosh" things over. Btw, Voodoo Doughnuts in Portland, OR are the best!

VG donut for For the Win!!!!!! I agree that donuts won't get me covered if I am TD1 under warranty but what I think it does is just help build a relationship and maybe he will hook me up best he can if the time comes. I tell you all the guys were really excited when the donuts showed up and If nothing comes of it then no biggie.

[fatboydelights]

I have a service visit coming up and will have a conversation with my SA about this topic. Hmm... given the reported results using donuts, I will have to try this with beer! Btw in pdx, blue star donuts are better!!!

[luv2sleep]

VG donut for For the Win!!!!!! I agree that donuts won't get me covered if I am TD1 under warranty but what I think it does is just help build a relationship and maybe he will hook me up best he can if the time comes. I tell you all the guys were really excited when the donuts showed up and If nothing comes of it then no biggie.

Shmooshing things over is always an excellent approach. If anything, it's a good gesture of appreciation and respect for a fellow human being. I completely agree with you. All this talk of doughnuts got me craving for some fat pills!

[luv2sleep]

I have a service visit coming up and will have a conversation with my SA about this topic. Hmm... given the reported results using donuts, I will have to try this with beer! Btw in pdx, blue star donuts are better!!!

I'll have to check out Blue Star the next time in PDX!

[Brooklyn]

Can't see their participation being a hindrance because if they wanted to track the discussion they could without us ever knowing about it. We could certainly benefit from hearing from corporate directly on their take on the issue and even individual cases as they arise and are discussed on the forum. A blanket voiding of a warranty based solely on modification to the car is BS, but VWAG is banking on the vast majority of individuals not being willing to litigate the denial. I suspect the number of people impacted by this is relatively small when compared to the significantly higher number of unmodified cars that are out there. I would love to hear then, the real reason why they are still aggressively targeting modified cars. Is it because they want to eventually get into the modification business? Or is it because they think most people will fleet up to a more powerful Audi if they know that modifying a lower model will likely result in warranty problems? Either way, it's an unfortunate development for Audi enthusiasts worldwide.

Guys, I've got a question related to the this topic. OP, I apologize in advance for hijacking your thread, but I do want your opinion as well.

If Audi corporate became actively involved in the Audizine Forums, IE addressing warranty issues and answering general questions asked of them, would you see that as a positive or negative thing? Do you feel it would benefit your experience here, or hinder your ability to have open discussions with each other?

Just curious.

[Ze_Nardo6]

Or is it because they think most people will fleet up to a more powerful Audi if they know that modifying a lower model will likely result in warranty problems?

The most obvious reason buyers wouldn't "fleet up" is monetarily driven, as will usually be the case. The S7 with a tune is a whole lot cheaper than the RS7. And before I get attacked here, I am not implying the S7 with a tune is an RS7 equivalent. I'm simply stating there is a reason those who purchased the S7 didn't pony up for the RS.

[luv2sleep]

The most obvious reason buyers wouldn't "fleet up" is monetarily driven, as will usually be the case. The S7 with a tune is a whole lot cheaper than the RS7. And before I get attacked here, I am not implying the S7 with a tune is an RS7 equivalent. I'm simply stating there is a reason those who purchased the S7 didn't pony up for the RS.

I agree. For most of us, spending over $100k on a car is still a hard pill to swallow whether one has the money or not. Now, if I'm staring at a Porsche 911 Turbo S, I can probably talk myself into buying one but my wife will be right there to bitch slap me, I mean, talk some sense into me. Just waitin' for the last one to finish up college. Loooooong ways to go...tick tock tick tock....

[bhvrdr]

Guys, I've got a question related to the this topic. OP, I apologize in advance for hijacking your thread, but I do want your opinion as well.

If Audi corporate became actively involved in the Audizine Forums, IE addressing warranty issues and answering general questions asked of them, would you see that as a positive or negative thing? Do you feel it would benefit your experience here, or hinder your ability to have open discussions with each other?

Just curious.

I think it just depends largely on how they participate. They can read the forums already so the question is what would their participation bring to the table? If they can actively help answer questions or provide assistance then that would be a huge asset IMO. If they provide canned replies such as "We at AofA appreciate your concern, blah blah blah" then its not as helpful. On the "camaro5" forum GM Customer service actively answers threads where someone posts a complaint. Sometimes it seems helpful, while other times it seems a bit self serving and insincere with no actual follow through. I'd say it totally depends on how AofA handles their participation.

Example: post 6 and 26

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244302

Mike

[agent47]

For the ones thinking litigation or Magnuson-Moss can help us- simplest answer now is No. Magnuson-Moss is only helpful in case aftermarket replacement parts were used. Our case is different- we are using something to alter the function of the components to make the vehicle perform outside the factory specifications- which is not covered by M-M act.

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[Brooklyn]

People keep trotting out MM like it's some sort of magic wand answer. "ooh, MM says they can't deny your warranty." Like you said, Agent, not only does it arguably not cover the types of mods we're doing, but litigating that shit against a multi-billion dollar company will be about as easy as pushing a tank up a mountain covered in oil.