Mahle OC105 VS. Mann 950/4 -Mann wins

[jacobsen]

The Mann 950/4 is made in Germany, it has 71 pleats and a continuous pattern of holes on the internal filter structure. It has a silicone anti drain back gasket which is as good as they come in the oil filter world and a flat 4 foot filter base spring.


The Mahle OC105 is made in Austria, it has 65 pleats and has a ribbon of thin paper material at the base of the filter element which the Mann does not have (not sure what this does). Rather than a flat filter base spring it has a coil. It has a non continuous series of holes in the internal filter structure (may reduce ease of flow?). The anti drain back valve is not silicone it is rubber and therefore just is not form fitting or long lasting as the Mann silicone is.


Based on what I see with the internal filter cone structure being continuous, 71 pleats, silicone anti drain back, it's made closer to the place the car was made, these things all add up to the Mann clearly winning the comparison. Also I would like to add that it tends to be assumed that because something is more expensive it is therefore superior. In this case Mahle market price is higher typically as cheap as 13-14 dollars ebay. Whereas Mann is a commonly 10 dollar item ebay. Based on what I see with the rubber anti drain back... That shortfall is definitive, no silicone adbv and being more expensive don't mix.

I find this filter interesting. Because it has 2 filter elements with a brace screen between the two with a "synthetic" media.



I'm also reading the hype about royal purple "micro glass" filter. They say it does 99.9 filtration at 25 microns. It sounds good...
My question then is if I were to venture from Mann or Mahle, would there be a filter the same size and bypass, like the royal purple for instance.
Any one got good information to share about what oil filter they use?

[jacobsen]

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...&Number=929699

"This may or may not help but had it saved from 2003 so am copying and pasting it here for you. This data is for Mann filters for a VW 1.8T engine so yours may vary. You may have questions about the data but I doubt I can answer it.

"Info from German Mann employee I spoke to:
Carol Hubbard (U.S.): 269-329-7211 (she forwarded my questions to Germany)
Jurgen Englmaler: 269 327-0057
Sellers: Volkparts.com : 1-800-322-6006 (paid $43.70 for six w/shipping) or
Filtersupplyamerica.com: 904 695-2539
Mann Filters – GTI 1.8t (OEM Supplier)
• Oil Filter (W 719/30) – 9 micron filtration at 99.5 – 99.9% efficiency
- Flow rate: 18 liters/min at ? pressure (tech guy did not know pressure)
- By-pass valve opens at 2.5 bar = 36.3 psi
- Cellulose treated with chemical – no fiberglass filters allowed in Germany
- Long-life filter – has recently been greatly improved to allow VW/Audi’s extended drain intervals
• Air Filter (C 37153) – 2 to 3 micron filtration at 99.8% efficiency
- Flow rate: 6 cubic meters/min at ? pressure (tech guy did not know pressure)
• Fuel Filter (WK 730-1) – 10 micron filtration at ? efficiency
- Flow rate: 90 liters/hr at ? pressure (tech guy did not know)"


if this is true then I'm impressed.

[seanf86]

good to know, I run the 950/4 on my AEB in my B5 and do 10k km intervals since I do tons of highway driving and don't want to deal with a sludged up 1.8t

[daniel B6 1.8t]

Nice post keep it coming

[Spike00513]

PO used Mann 940/25 and I've got a few of them on the shelf. Wonder what to make of it

[jacobsen]

PO used Mann 940/25 and I've got a few of them on the shelf. Wonder what to make of it

Great filter, just a bit smaller copacity.

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[jacobsen]

https://youtu.be/uTd33D7eJ7Q

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[jacobsen]

Hengst H19W06
I wanna try this filter but theres quite the shipping fee! Wonder if I can have a friend in Berlin send me one..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olfilter-VW-...QAAOSw4hdXIMvK

[jacobsen]

The first one to return my email response on specifications for the filters was Mann.

Mann 950/4 and 940/25
~ the media is the same:

Filtration efficiency 50 %, ISO 4548-12: 20 µm

Filtration efficiency 99 %, ISO 4548-12: >50 µm


Both filters have the same bypass pressures and the same filter media. The difference is the size in the hexagon bits fastened to the end to assist in removal.

I don't understand the filtering capacity specs. This being the super important part about my question I hope someone can convert that to something I can more easily understand.

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[jacobsen]

Example of Filtration efficiency 50 %, ISO 4548-12: 20 µm

If you want to know, with which particle size you will reach an efficiency of 50%, then you find the size 20 µm.

Other way round:

smaller particles of 20 µm reach a worse efficiency than 50 %, particles of 20 µm will be separated by 50% (half of the particles will be separated) and bigger ones will be separated better than 50 %. Such as particles bigger than 50 µm: they will be separated by 99 %.



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[MikTip]

I'll just leave this here....

http://www.cmfilters.com/

[MikTip]

If a person changes their oil and filter at regular intervals with good oil and filter, everything will be fine.

I have never suffered any oil filter caused engine break downs, in the 36 years I have owned, driven and DIY my own oil on all my Audi's.

My 2004 B6 engine has 268,000 miles and is still going....

[hightime80]

MANN 940/25 has always been my go to filter. Cheap and readily available. Although I might try a wix filter next since I read its of german quality and they carry it ar O'reilys auto parts down da steet.

[jacobsen]

The best mann filter is the 962/2 but the threads are different...

The Hunt is on for the lowest micron filter I can find. This is all out of curiosity. I'm actually interested in quote unquote synthetic filters. Fram has one that looks interesting. Where there is a metal frame that the filter his held by. Also with a metal mesh separating not one but two elements.

I'll also add that although Mahle customer service did contact me to let me know they were sending my email around the world to try to find someone to answer my question it's now been quite a while since I've heard anything. From my earlier dissection they simply appear to be inferior. Also the customer service appears to be inferior.

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[jacobsen]

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[ozMatt]

That 962/2 looks like a beast - but if i'm reading correctly it doesn't have the same thread size as the 950/4, so not sure it'll actually fit/screw on.

950/4
https://catalog.mann-filter.com/EU/e...lter/W%20950~4

962/2
https://catalog.mann-filter.com/EU/e...lter/W%20962~2

[jacobsen]

That 962/2 looks like a beast - but if i'm reading correctly it doesn't have the same thread size as the 950/4, so not sure it'll actually fit/screw on.

950/4
https://catalog.mann-filter.com/EU/e...lter/W%20950~4

962/2
https://catalog.mann-filter.com/EU/e...lter/W%20962~2

I thought I had checked correctly but I guess not. Well... The Baldwin High Velocity dual flow micro glass filter looks pretty darn spiffy.

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[All_Euro]

Great topic - I have one 940/25 to use up and then will try a 950/4 or possibly 962/2... an even 5L would be awesome.

[jacobsen]

I wonder if you can buy a sleeve that can convert 3/4-16 to 1-12? Or remote adaptor if your brain hurts a Lil more.

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[jacobsen]

The best filter in terms of filtration is mann WP 1144. Same bypass, 2.5 and the same thread pitch so it will work on the B6 A4. Pricey too, 25 bucks eBay.

it looks like it has two filters. One is a full flow and one is a partial flow. the full flow filters down to 14 microns at 50% efficiency. And 36 microns at 99% efficiency. The partial flow filters down to 3 microns at 50% efficiency and 6 microns at 99% efficiency. That's hysterically clean oil. It's just not a high-capacity filter like the 950 / 4 is. It would be pretty neat to have this filter in a high capacity. But it seems like these fine Micron filters tend to be smaller...

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[jesse500]

The best filter in terms of filtration is mann WP 1144. Same bypass, 2.5 and the same thread pitch so it will work on the B6 A4. Pricey too, 25 bucks eBay.

it looks like it has two filters. One is a full flow and one is a partial flow. the full flow filters down to 14 microns at 50% efficiency. And 36 microns at 99% efficiency. The partial flow filters down to 3 microns at 50% efficiency and 6 microns at 99% efficiency. That's hysterically clean oil. It's just not a high-capacity filter like the 950 / 4 is. It would be pretty neat to have this filter in a high capacity. But it seems like these fine Micron filters tend to be smaller...

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950/4: 3.66" DIA, 7.2" long.
940/25:3.66" DIA, 5.59" long.
WP 1144: 4.25" DIA, 5.7" long. (Seal is very slightly different in DO/ID than the 940 & 950 (both identical at 71mm/62mm). (+1mm OD, +1mm ID). Different dual seal design though. Not sure if that would effect anything.

If the micron rating is that much better, It would be plenty fine for size.

[jacobsen]

950/4: 3.66" DIA, 7.2" long.
940/25:3.66" DIA, 5.59" long.
WP 1144: 4.25" DIA, 5.7" long. (Seal is very slightly different in DO/ID than the 940 & 950 (both identical at 71mm/62mm). (+1mm OD, +1mm ID). Different dual seal design though. Not sure if that would effect anything.

If the micron rating is that much better, It would be plenty fine for size.

I see that inner and outer seal... We're entering diagnosticator/OG territory here. I'd like to spend my money on that one rather than the 950 / 4. I'm just not sure about that double seal.

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[jacobsen]

Heard back from MAHLE but it's only half the story, I want gpm and 99% efficiency numbers but the info they provided so far is that it's 24 microns at 50%.

[jacobsen]

The only fitment difference I see in the wp1144 is the 1mm larger sealing Oring. Everything else suggests that it will fit. It's actually quite large in reality for a filter of it's spec. The inner sealing O ring actually looks even more recessed when looking at the picture so I'm a bit convinced it will work.

[jesse500]

The only fitment difference I see in the wp1144 is the 1mm larger sealing Oring. Everything else suggests that it will fit. It's actually quite large in reality for a filter of it's spec. The inner sealing O ring actually looks even more recessed when looking at the picture so I'm a bit convinced it will work.

buy it, test it, and report back!

[jacobsen]

buy it, test it, and report back!

I'm only 500 miles into a 950 / 4 motul oil change. My next Oil Change will definitely give it a shot. Maybe I'll just get it and try to switch it out real quick just to see if it fits on there and work? I guess I should admit that the flow rate per minute is less which isn't something to ignore. When I look up the filter a lot of small displacement diesel motors are listed under its use.

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[jacobsen]

Molly customer service contact with me once again. The OC 105 has a flow rate of 30 liters per minute. But they say that their data sheet does not specify what the Micron rating is at 99% efficiency or what the filter paper media is. If it did they said that information is proprietary. That's not good disclosure. Mann disclosed all of that on the 1st round of Correspondence.

Mahle is clearly inferior and you should not use that filter instead of the Mann filter.

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[Gin+]

Any word on hengst vs mann?

[Arnie91]

Video lacks science.

[jacobsen]

Any word on hengst vs mann?

We can't get hengst in USA without huge tax. The equivalent hengst 950/4 is about 80 bucks ebay so haven't been able to look at it. Mahle is a cheap mann copy cat.

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[jacobsen]

And lo Jesus said to Thomas, T6 is good group 3 but group IV and V motul is the right thing to do. For if you could find delvac SHC 5w40 Within your land you should consider it too IV/V perhaps better even than motul as it has a higher Flashpoint and a TBN of 16. Whereas of the three T6 has the lowest flashpoint of the three.

The question of viscosity and oil filter efficiency is of great question. From the oil pump to the turbo that is. What is better thinner or thicker. Thinner will go faster but will it cushion the bearing as steady, thicker will be slower but will it cushion the bearing firmer? I think there are three most important parts of motor oil friction, Flashpoint and TBN. I've done my research on the various oil filters that fit the B6. One of the filters that will fit on the B6 which has the same bypass pressure will actually go down to 3 microns.

WP1144 x2 internal filters 3@50%-6@99% micron and 14@50%-36@99%. bypass 2.5. operating pressure 14 bar. GPM flow 6.87.

950/4 single filter. 20@50% 50@99% micron. 2.5 bypass. Operating pressure 14 bar. GPM flow 15.85.

The two filters are very much alike other than the Micron rating and the gallon per minute flow rating. My question is does viscosity grade effect gallon per minute flow? And if so, would the wp 1144 be riding with an open bypass in the B6 because of the finer filtration restricting flow? How much does the oil pump flow per minute?

I'm going to copy this info over to the oil filter thread. The wp 1144 is used in a lot of small displacement diesel motors period we're such and particles May matter more as there are tons more because it's diesel.





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[GTA]

Nice to know that the Mann 940/25 and Motul 8100 is a preferred oil / filter combo.

Every time I get a new (used) car, I always try to schedule my oil changes around the odometer reading; i.e. 200,000km, 205,000km, 210,000km so I don't forget.

I switched to the Mann 940/25 from the Mann 925/x for my last oil change. I was using Lubri-Moly 5W40 but switched that to Motul 8100 X-cess for my past 3 changes. I've been doing oil/filter changes at around 5000 km (3100 miles) but my last change was at around 10,000km (6200 miles). My car goes through no oil at all between changes, And since I always inspect my old oil, other than the smell of fuel, the oil still looked good (dark brown but not black). I don't drive my car much and my last change interval was about 11 months.

Does anyone think I'm stretching it too much? Or should I do it around 7500km (4660 Miles) to be on the safe side? Is there really an advantage to time change intervals or just by mileage? Lots of differing opinions I'm sure.

[jacobsen]

Nice to know that the Mann 940/25 and Motul 8100 is a preferred oil / filter combo.

Every time I get a new (used) car, I always try to schedule my oil changes around the odometer reading; i.e. 200,000km, 205,000km, 210,000km so I don't forget.

I switched to the Mann 940/25 from the Mann 925/x for my last oil change. I was using Lubri-Moly 5W40 but switched that to Motul 8100 X-cess for my past 3 changes. I've been doing oil/filter changes at around 5000 km (3100 miles) but my last change was at around 10,000km (6200 miles). My car goes through no oil at all between changes, And since I always inspect my old oil, other than the smell of fuel, the oil still looked good (dark brown but not black). I don't drive my car much and my last change interval was about 11 months.

Does anyone think I'm stretching it too much? Or should I do it around 7500km (4660 Miles) to be on the safe side? Is there really an advantage to time change intervals or just by mileage? Lots of differing opinions I'm sure.

The 950/4 is around the same price of the 940/25 and it adds capacity so I would switch to that to maximize the benefit, it's nearly five liters. I do 8k miles oci and the oil is still see through when it's draining out, I'm sure if I sent him sample to Blackstone they tell me it's good to go for quite a while longer. The filter is good for 35000 miles as it's used on diesel transporter platform. And 8100 x-cess is an extended drain interval oil. Group 4 and 5. Some of their oils have more esters then others. You can get motul at CarQuest AKA Advanced Auto since they bought them out for around 40 bucks per 5 liter jug. It's regularly distributed in America through Worldpac. I like that motul is exclusively made in France, they don't have remote factories. delvac 1 ESP is a good one too, it's a full synthetic with high TBN and high flash point. If you can get ahold of delvac shc that one has better specs. I found a site that sells it in 5 gallon pails which turns out to be about $41 per gallon. I'm thinking that if I was to run the WP 1144 I should probably use a 0 w to help it pass through?

[GTA]

So OCI is at 10,000km is sufficient then. What about the time duration between changes? 1 year too long? I drive it at least once a week but normally drive around 10,000km per year, give or take.

I'm asking because I can't quite understand technically why people use 2-3 months as change intervals regardless if it hasn't done the requisite mileage to warrant an oil change. Really only looking for a reasonable explanation why this is.

[jacobsen]

So OCI is at 10,000km is sufficient then. What about the time duration between changes? 1 year too long? I drive it at least once a week but normally drive around 10,000km per year, give or take.

I'm asking because I can't quite understand technically why people use 2-3 months as change intervals regardless if it hasn't done the requisite mileage to warrant an oil change. Really only looking for a reasonable explanation why this is.

Well it's a matter of personal concern. Oil does have an expiration date but I am not the authority on that. I believe that oil is good no matter where it is stored as long as it's not getting diluted with fuel or water. If oil sat for an exceptionally long time I would but there was some failure within it to some degree. But we're talking many many years. I think the reason people talk about month intervals has to do with how long it typically takes them to cover their oil change interval in miles, idle time and their comfortability in replacing the oil. Remember changing oil as a precautionary thing. It's not something you want to do after it's bad. You want to change it while it's still good. That can be hard for people to conceptualize. As delicious as motul is or delvac shc for instance. We don't want to hold on to it longer than we need to. We need to accept the fact that it's a disposable item. And in any case because of our oil filter only filtering 20 - 50 microns it's going to fill up with wear particles at some point below 20 microns. Which many studies have demonstrated do have a bad affect. Which is why I'm wondering about the wp 1144 filter. In any case my car for instance has a hundred 50k on it and I'm sure whatever damage those smaller particles may have done is long long done. I would say if you're doing ten thousand kilometers a year you could up it to 13 k kilometers pretty safely.

Most people who have good oil change habits do something like this. They pick a number based on an oil of their choosing. That is typically somewhere between 3 and 6000 miles. Some of us on the Fringe will go up to 10k - 15k miles if we can still see through the oil on the dipstick and it looks and feels good. This is more experimentation at this point. So you pick a number between 3k and 6k. And you just change it at that point regardless of what it looks like. Or you keep an eye on it and change it when you feel it's time. Either way is fine.

Me I change from 5w40 to 0w40 before winter. Most of the time my 5w40 is still good and I will dump it into my spare car if that thing needs oil changed. Definitely want to run a 0 W in winter in Minnesota. I've been using motul excess 5w40 many years and I know that I could do 10k mile oil change confidently with this oil. I've only done it once as an experiment. I typically change it at 8k miles because it's only 40 some bucks... these higher grade diesel motor oils are designed for extended drain so you shouldn't have to anticipate or expect changing it out in the normal three to five thousand mile interval. You're supposed to be able to consider 10 to 15 thousand mile interval with these oils. Delvac ESP, shc is over the road 30000 mile oil, motul...

Taking in the totality of the situation. How much is the oil of your choice costing you. How long does it take to get depleted? I think it's totally reasonable to change it every 6000 if it's only costing you fifty bucks.

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[jacobsen]

And by the way changing your oil before it goes bad and by that I mean filling up with black carbon Coke soot. Will help clean the inside of your motor. Especially High TBN oils.

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[GTA]

That's what I thought. And without going into the science of it, I do feel comfortable doing my oil changes at around 10k Km.

Thanks for sharing your comments J.

[jacobsen]

That's what I thought. And without going into the science of it, I do feel comfortable doing my oil changes at around 10k Km.

Thanks for sharing your comments J.

There are people who experiment with peanut oil, olive oil, vegetable oil... who have had good results. Haha

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[jacobsen]

FYI the stock filter W719/30 Audi was running was filtering 14@50%38@99% micron with a GPM of 25.
The 940/25 can do 50 GPM! 20@50%50@99% micron.
The 950/4 can do 60 GPM! 20@50% 50@99% micron.

The WP1144 is identical in spec. It has 2 internal filters 3@50% 6@99% and 14@50% 36@99% with a GPM of 26!

So it has 1 GPM more than the original specification W719/30 filter.

I find it interesting that AUDI decided the higher tolerance 20x50micron filters could replace the original smaller tolerance 14x38micron filter.
Was the original filter filtering too much and clogging?
Was it not adding enough capacity to the system?
Was it not flowing enough GPM?
Were the OCI's too long on conventional oil? Yes, the official reason given by Audi.
So they switched to bigger filters and synthetic oil after the class action lawsuit.

If the OEM filter has a GPM of 25 I don't see why the WP1144 could not be used since it's 26 GPM. The extra filtration and the identical spec makes it a no brainer. It seems like these things only serve to help. capacity, filtration, GPM...

The question now is, what is the GPM ability of the oil pump in the 1.8t? Is there a chart or a graph or quantifiable data on it's GPM?

[jacobsen]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...leshooting-DIY

This thread has some GPM information but it seems ambiguous, not specific to the 1.8t