Time For a New Head: Part-2

[old guy]

I got home last night after putting approximately 800 miles on the Audi. The Bar's Head Gasket Repair worked exactly as advertized. Block temperatures were right where they should be. I did try to stay out of boost as much as possible and most of the Interstate cruising was between 75 and 80, essentially going with the flow. The radiator hoses no longer felt rock hard from excess pressure and I didn't lose any coolant at all. I was really happy about that. Now I don't feel like I have to jump on it immediately and I can take my time. I would like do a thorough under hood cleaning, replace the ignition harness and a few other details like that before I tear into it.

The rebuilt head showed up today. It looks pretty decent but there are a few things I want to do with it before the install. It is most definately an OEM AWM head and it has an OEM CCT. Here are a few pics. I will see if I can take a few pics of the install and maybe do a mini write up.

[hightime80]

Looking forward to a comprehensive DIY OG! I m sure I will need it eventually👍

[Kevin C]

Looks good, I'm curious to see if a fresh head improves performance.

[old guy]

Looks good, I'm curious to see if a fresh head improves performance.

That would be nice but I really don't expect it to perform any different. When I checked my compression just prior the the F21L installation it was between 175→180psi across the board. The engine runs fine. It was just losing a small amount of coolant and pressurizing the cooling system.

[Kevin C]

That would be nice but I really don't expect it to perform any different. When I checked my compression just prior the the F21L installation it was between 175→180psi across the board. The engine runs fine. It was just losing a small amount of coolant and pressurizing the cooling system.

Pet theory of mine... Fresh valve guides and seats improve how quickly the valves seal and a rebuilt head does has not carbon deposits behind the valve. Short story is my theory is that its not just compression, a clean valves should flow better (at low lifts) and be able to seat quicker.

It might be nice if you got even better spool out of your turbo.

That's my story...

Also, if you old head is bad, and you want to sell it , let me know. I'm looking for a donor to cut up to get a few cross sections from and do some flow tests on.

[evo_ski]

Nice! Glad to hear the drive went well and the head showed up in good shape.


One word to the wise, do a full inspection of it and really look closely. I spent $1000 on a rebuilt head that was purchased through a local vw parts yard and they gave it back to me with an entire tooth broken off of the camshaft sprocket that runs the CCT. So even though it looked mint I had to swap it for another one. It would just suck for you to spend all that time and money swapping it for it to be a bad part.

[customa4]

I'm not sure if you mentioned it in your other thread but, where did you source the cylinder head from?

[diagnosticator]

Pet theory of mine... Fresh valve guides and seats improve how quickly the valves seal and a rebuilt head does has not carbon deposits behind the valve. Short story is my theory is that its not just compression, a clean valves should flow better (at low lifts) and be able to seat quicker.

It might be nice if you got even better spool out of your turbo.

That's my story...

Also, if you old head is bad, and you want to sell it , let me know. I'm looking for a donor to cut up to get a few cross sections from and do some flow tests on.

A rebuilt head is supposed to include new valve guides, valve guide seals, reground valve seats and all original valves reground, with the gasket surface milled flat, with new or good cams if needed and new cam followers if replacement cams are installed, a new timing adjuster, intake cam drive chain and a new exhaust cam seal.

[Seerlah]

Sorry for ruining your previous thread, Fletcher. Should have never came to that, and I apologize.

[Arnie91]

Hey OG, are you gonna drop any IE or Mahle specials into the engine?

[Willënskraft]

Built engine with upgraded internals and Frankenturbo? The possibilities are endless .

[Kevin C]

A rebuilt head is supposed to include new valve guides, valve guide seals, reground valve seats and all original valves reground, with the gasket surface milled flat, with new or good cams if needed and new cam followers if replacement cams are installed, a new timing adjuster, intake cam drive chain and a new exhaust cam seal.

Many re-builders (especially the large scale ones) do a risk analysis on whats needed to have a functional assembly at a specific price point. Basically they do a cost benefit to maximize profit and or stay in business. One of my coworkers worked for a major re-builder and had some interesting insight into how things are done.

Also, The new head looks good!

[evo_ski]

This is what I noticed on mine. Not the greatest.

[diagnosticator]

Many re-builders (especially the large scale ones) do a risk analysis on whats needed to have a functional assembly at a specific price point. Basically they do a cost benefit to maximize profit and or stay in business. One of my coworkers worked for a major re-builder and had some interesting insight into how things are done.

Also, The new head looks good!

Yeah, large volume rebuilders have to focus on cost reduction since their profit margins are often slim. I can imagine there are a lot of obscure cost factors involved.

[old guy]

Kevin: I see your point about improved flow and will be sure to post up any improvements if I can feel or measure any differences.

evo_ski: I plan on dismantling the head, inspecting and reassembling it before I install it to make sure everything looks good and the cam caps are torqued properly. I already found one cam cap bolt that was loose. Since the sealer appears to be working I don't feel rushed and can take my time to make sure the rebuilt head is good in all aspects.

customa4: I took a chance with an ebay listing. The supplier had a 100% rating and gave a 1 year warranty on the head. It was $529 with free shipping.

diagnosticator: The head was listed as using inspected but used components. Hot dipped, new valve guide seals, 3 angle valve reseat, decked and pressure tested. The CCT was used but OEM.

Seerlah: No problem. Thanks for adding the link for continuity!

Arnie91/Willënskraft: Nope. Not gonna happen. Just returning everything to a healthy state and enjoying it as is ;-)

[Seerlah]

Your welcome!

With the cold weather creeping in, you think swap is coming before winter? Weather is crazy. Two weeks ago it was 80 degrees at night around my way. Currently 60 degrees and it is 3pm. I'm expecting temps to rise, hopefully.

[customa4]

Good deal OG!

[old guy]

Your welcome!

With the cold weather creeping in, you think swap is coming before winter? Weather is crazy. Two weeks ago it was 80 degrees at night around my way. Currently 60 degrees and it is 3pm. I'm expecting temps to rise, hopefully.

I would like to get it done in the next three or four weeks. I plan on dismantling the rebuilt head this weekend and making sure it is totally ready to go. Stuff like opening up the CCT and checking the pad wear and look for any scaring on the CCT cylinder slides. Checking the cam journals for wear. Cam chain for stretch, etc.

[Seerlah]

It said rebuilt head, but OEM valves are not necessarily cheap. You know what valves were used?

[Charles.waite]

Whats the deal with some exhaust valves having a dimple and some not? mixed parts/manufacturers? Seems a bit strange.

[Seerlah]

And my curiosity factor just increased!

FWIW Osvat exhaust valves are solid and fairly cheap. Very popular upgrade in the VW scene, when compared to Ferrea or ST. I even have a set laying in my garage (cylinder head project taking way too long).

If the mismatch starts to get to you too much, keep that option open. Can't recall where I picked them up cheapest, but was not an AZ vendor. Or just use the ones from your current head (how the most obvious routes escape ).

[old guy]

According to the information provided all parts were used but inspected OEM components so no, the valves are not new. As to the dimpled/non-dimpled exhaust valves I really don’t know. I believe the Supertech 1.8T exhaust valves do not have a dimple. Possibly different OEM heads were assembled with non-dimpled exhaust valves?

Seerlah listed another possibility. The mix with dimpled/non-dimpled really doesn't concern me at all as long as they are properly seated.

[old guy]

Does anyone have any old OEM head bolts in their used parts junk pile that I can purchase for a few $? I need two old head bolts so I can grind the heads off and cut a screwdriver slot in the end and then use them for alignment guides when I go to install the rebuilt head. I know that I could just use my old head bolts but I would rather have them prepared ahead of time. Plus it will be much easier to modify them at work in the machine shop than at home.

tia!

[csosnowski]

I think I have some I can give you og, I can check when I get back to the shop in the AM.

[old guy]

I think I have some I can give you og, I can check when I get back to the shop in the AM.

Great! Thank you!!

[16vCorey]

If he comes up short, I have several. Hell, I think I have a couple rolling around in the back of the car right now.

[Steve Bassen]

I just pulled a handful of used 1.8 head bolts from a box of crap in my basement if you want local pickup, fyi

[old guy]

I just pulled a handful of used 1.8 head bolts from a box of crap in my basement if you want local pickup, fyi

THanks Steve! I'll shoot you a PM.

[Seerlah]

Does anyone have any old OEM head bolts in their used parts junk pile that I can purchase for a few $? I need two old head bolts so I can grind the heads off and cut a screwdriver slot in the end and then use them for alignment guides when I go to install the rebuilt head. I know that I could just use my old head bolts but I would rather have them prepared ahead of time. Plus it will be much easier to modify them at work in the machine shop than at home.

tia!

I have two prepped like that sitting on my dresser, and forgot I had them. Other AZ member sent me them, when I asked for some valves. I ended up not using them, in fear of scratching the head surface. I always just use the dowels on the short block.

Pretty sure they were a gift (had them for over a year, and we converse through text and phone frequently). Us B5 guys usually just give a bunch of stuff to each others, or for dirt cheap. Sold csosnowski my old clutch for $150 shipped with flywheel (decent life left). Didn't pocket much at all, due to shipping cost. But during this time, every bit helped.

Anyways, just seen you found some local. Was going to send you these two already prepped for use. Offer still on table.

[Seerlah]

Whether UPS, USPS, or FedEx I ship direct at the shipping facilities. Cost less and saves time by cutting out the middle man. All are 5 minute drives from me, with USPS and FedEx right next to each others (business center area with a private airport right there they use). Locals know to cut out the middle man. I can ship them out today, but need your shipping info soon because they close at 12pm.

[old guy]

Thanks so much for the offer Mitch but I am going to pick up some bolts from Steve this weekend. I'm going to do something a little different on the end than just a slot. The guys in my machine shop at work are pretty creative. I'm going to have the bolts necked down enough to install a Delrin cap on the end of the bolt so I don't have to worry about gouging the head with the bolts during the install. They love a good challenge;)

I'll post some pics with whatever they come up with.

[Seerlah]

Cool beans!

[chad99]

.....in fear of scratching the head surface....

I did this slightly when I put my head back on my old car I sold..I should have waited for a friend to come by to help guide the head but I wanted it done now, it almost touched the fire seal area. Maybe if I installed the head without the exhaust manifold on it might have been ok since the whole assembly is damm heavy
After removing the two cutoff head bolts I found the dowel pins were more than enough to get the head in place.

[All_Euro]

I did this slightly when I put my head back on my old car I sold..I should have waited for a friend to come by to help guide the head but I wanted it done now, it almost touched the fire seal area. Maybe if I installed the head without the exhaust manifold on it might have been ok since the whole assembly is damm heavy
After removing the two cutoff head bolts I found the dowel pins were more than enough to get the head in place.

That’s all I’ve ever used but a little extra guidance would be nice too.

[Seerlah]

Case and point!

But goofing is part of the learning curve. Learning from your mistakes are the best teachers. Somebody can tell you 100xs, yet all it takes is one lesson from life for you to learn. Not being hard headed, but you simply did not know and prudent warnings that you regret not taking heed to was the ironic reason in the end for the regret of not taking heed. Irony that will continue to happen in your life till a term appointed, and will continue to be best teachers. Such is life, and is quite difficult to escape such a karma wheel. But mistakes are still the best teachers, IMO.

*if you don't like reading, then stop here. if you are one who likes to learn stuff, especially from mistakes with personal examples provided and why I am still a knucklehead at times (car race kill story) then continue reading. if you care about life, something relevant lived by possibly everything yet unacknowledged by some may be learned*

More than once at times does it take lessons to be learned even when you learn from your own mistake first time it happens, and I'm more than guilty of this (Moral story with kill story, and reason why still a knucklehead at times at end: two car accidents to learn, and now have a clean record for maybe 10yrs+ by now). Once again again not being hard headed, but lessons are tougher for the human self to embrace at times. And still a knuckle head (hit 150+mph on the turnpike, but NJ people drive like maniacs. somebody tried to call out my little beater...and got left so bad he was no longer in my rear view mirror. spanked . only been beat three times, and one time was with a smaller turbo so doesn't count. b8 s4 left me like I was parked lol. and I call out none, but people for some odd reason people think my car only "looks" fast and is just a B5. not just a B5, but an A4 aka Audi Peasant Mobile. Function and Form exists with the old school beater, and a very expensive hobby that you guys all know too well. lessons are taught by spank sessions, but a good 95% turn into a fun cruise with someone like me necessary to let another enjoy their hobby. good times.). End of the day, if lesson was not ignored then you are no longer ignorant to the lesson taught. And you can 100% say you are no longer ignorant to such a situation in life.

Subconsciously, you will now approach certain situations more wisely and that moral subconsciously is now applied to many things you do in life. That is for someone who cares, anyways. If you don't care, that goes without saying. Anyways, that approach and outlook is something not noticed and taken in that you now apply to many things you do in life, and it all starts from having your decision making more improved. Great starting ground, to avoid a goof. Such is life, and no reason to ask me how I know. Not for the ignorant (does not mean stupid, but if you didn't ignore and made it this far kudos to you)

Goof I learned by damaging last Elring gasket I picked up for like $20 shipped last year. What was a deal, turned $20 wasted. Lesson learned, NEVER work on your car at night (being frustrated should have been warning not to, but I can be a hard headed dude at times). Thought I had cylinder head on straight using using block dowels for guidance, and goal was to get block assembled and in car by end of day (short block already placed in car, because I find it much easier to put short block in first then head with goal to have long block placed together in car end of day. would get into details on this being second engine build, but makes long post even longer. another time, gentlemen. but involves other car that beat me, dude was 50yrs+ and car was 335i no way stock...and he called me out. totally my fault for build #2). Back dowel not seated correct when I thought it was. Front on correct. Can't get head bolt to thread down. Arrogance at it's finest. I decided to apply a little pressure and thinking head bolt can't find hole (why I thought this, just explained as pure arrogance or plain old silly). Doesn't budge so now I decided to just lift the head up and see what is going on. Spun the head bolt onto rubber seal part of gasket...and now gasket is ruined. Because of that, I now have to order another one with the loss of that "so called" meal deal gasket out the window. $20 loss that end up costing more end of day and more time added. It's bull like this why you can never put a time frame on a project...EVER!!! Murphy has a Law not to be ignored. Then statements like "Expect the unexpected" which to me made absolutely no sense (it's an impossibility), is now acknowledged as a warning to be more prudent (33 years old, and just learned this now while typing). So in the case of car projects no time frame should be applied. You will be lying to yourself, others if you give them a time frame you believed to be true at the time, and cause yourself along with others frustration (ie wife for taking too long with what you said will take one week "tops". oh, you just had to throw "tops" in there too. or the good old fashion, "I should be able to get it done this weekend"...and no backup plan to get to work on Monday. seen one too many threads like this, with end results I can say were not too surprising. save yourself the aggravation and just say something along the lines of "I don't know, but will try and get it done quickly", have a back up plan for transportation on deck, and get sh*t done) all because you thought Murphy was a liar. Don't do it to yourself!!! You will be much happier, and hopefully less stressed during process since no deadline exists (that one week project got finished week 3, or that weekend project got finished Tuesday vs Sunday and you used two vacation days from work as a back up plan...back to work Wed).

/end novel that was able to be squeezed into a post (sorry Fletch for the out of control content, but I know you read and appreciated. non-ignorant people will, and hope when I use that word it is not viewed as slander because I don't look down upon others. but it's pure reasoning and definition behind that word with zero emotion involved should be understood)

[old guy]

Time for a quick update:
The head gasket sealer is still working fine. I have even started getting back into boost and I haven't had to add any coolant at all. I dismantled, inspected and reassembled the rebuilt head. Glad I did.

THE GOOD: The valve seats look really good. New valve guide seals were installed. The head was exceptionally clean. It had to have been hot dipped. The CCT was OEM with what I suspect were the original wear pads. There was some wear on the pads but compared to my OEM pads at 190k miles I suspect this CCT had no more than 100k miles of wear, probably even less. Not even enough to warrant replacing them. The cam journals looked pristine. No noticeable wear at all. Valve guide seals were new. The timing chain had less stretch and sag than my OEM chain that I previously replaced so that is also an indication of lower mileage on the head. Some of the valves had obviously been replaced (dimpled/non-dimpled) so I suspect this head may have been a victim of a broken timing belt. All in all looks pretty good.

THE BAD: The CCT gasket wasn't replaced. It was obviously the original gasket and half moon slathered in gasket sealer and reused. The lifters weren't cleaned. They were just put back into the head. They weren't really bad but but they were a little dirty so I gave then a thorough cleaning. It appeared that the components were reassembled using motor oil rather than assembly lube. I wiped everything down and coated all wear surfaces with assembly lube. Two of the cam cap bolts were only finger tight. That could have been disastrous. I reassembled all components to factory torque specs. The head was sprayed with Aluminum paint. Made the head look nice but there was overspray on the cam lobes and all of the gasket surfaces. I left the paint on the head but cleaned up all the overspray and gasket sealing surfaces.

Tomorrow I plan on doing a thorough cleaning under the hood. I ordered and received a timing belt kit from Blauparts that utilizes the new Litens timing belt tensioner so I will replace that at the same time as the head replacement. My last TB service was only 30k miles ago but I figured I should go ahead and replace it all since this will probably be the last major repair I undertake. At some point I am going to have to (reluctantly) go with something a bit newer.

I am hoping to find some time in the next few weeks to undertake the head replacement and TB service. Will post updates when it happens.

[EuroxS4]

Not to thread Jack but I recently tore down an engine that had a head gasket sealer type liquid added to the coolant and also I found out the coolant was mixed with a domestic brand like prestone universal coolant.I found out why the engine over heated.When removing the waterpump I found that the coolant inside the cooling jackets and around the pump impleller turned to almost rock solid jello.Restricting flow much of it accumulated on the pump just before the impeller.Came off in very large chunks when I remove the pump.But this engine didn't have a chance in hell with that concoction in there.Needless to say always use the correct coolant for the vehicle and if you not sure make sure you completely flush the system before adding other than the factory coolant.I would never use anything other than factory coolant.Regardless this is why a universal coolant should never be used.The oem stuff is not cheap but it's cheap insurance rather than jello in the cooling system.Also distilled water is recommended mostly because lime and scale in regular tap water is normally deposited in the heater core.This is the number one reason for blocked heater cores.There was a factory memo some years ago that talked about all of the above some years ago from audi.



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[Seerlah]

Also wanted to ask what water pump comes with that kit? There is a bad batch of geba pumps running around claiming motors from seizing. I personally picked up a brand new oem one with plastic impeller for cheap, and was gping to swap it in. Doubt I have one from the had batch, but I peice together my own timing belt kit each time. For example I have this wp, and then Gates Racing belt would be picked up too. Kit ends up being much cheaper in the long run, with all parts being exactly what I wanted.

[old guy]

Graf water pump. I had two Geba pumps fail prematurely. Never again.....

[EuroxS4]

Personally like a hepu pumps with metal impellers.


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