Logs: Non-Meth vs. Meth on a Dual Pulley 3.0 TFSI

**jran76** · 09-22-2016 08:11 AM

This came up on the Facebook group. Someone had asked if meth injection was better than an upgraded heat exchanger/coolant system in terms of battling IAT's. The short answer is no, it does not do as much for IAT's, but it is slightly beneficial in other ways. I've posted some logs below. The IAT drop is maybe 2-3 degrees C at best with meth (the AMS/Alpha coolant system drops temps by 2-3x that amount in similar conditions).

The vehicle in question is an EPL/E85 tuned (running E70ish), 2010 DSG S4 running an 189mm crank pulley with APR SC pulley. Roc-Euro intake, JHM test pipes, and AMS/Alpha coolant system. Ambient temp was prob 85F and 2500 DA (high this day was 98F degrees).

These logs were done on back to back passes. As you can see, the "meth on" logs were done first, and the "meth off" logs were done at the end. Take that into account when considering the temp differences. Also, note that his car shifts at 6700 rpm....

Meth on 1st pass:

Meth on 2nd pass:

Meth off:

At 66xx RPM:
IAT (C): 57C (off) vs. 55C (on)
Boost (psi): 17.7 psi (off) vs 18.3 psi (on)
Timing (degrees): 25.5 (off) vs. 26.625 (on)
No bypass on either, but there was a little knock correction (1-2 degrees) at 6400 RPM with the meth off.

What are we talking about? This is injecting a 50/50 meth/water into the intake tube. In this case an AEM kit with 1000cc nozzle (he's also tried a 500cc nozzle) triggered off boost. It's injected pre-SC because that's the only way for the factory pressure/temp sensors to see any difference. Ideally, you'd inject post-SC to get a much larger benefit in terms of temperature reduction, but that would be downstream from the pressure/temp sensors. Injecting post-SC would provide some extra safety margin, but no performance benefit unless custom tuned for it.

The downside to this type of setup is the meth/water runs through the SC which is essentially a large heat pump. This negates a lot of the temperature related benefits. On the plus side, it slightly raises boost, and helps with fueling by unloading the injectors a little (he's able to up the ethanol content to over E70).

**JD S4** · 09-22-2016 08:15 AM

Love this post. Thank you for sharing.

What if it was stacked with an HX? Overskill? Redundant?

HX, Meth, "Chiller".... The perfect combo will happen

**jran76** · 09-22-2016 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by JD S4

Love this post. Thank you for sharing.

What if it was stacked with an HX? Overskill? Redundant?

HX, Meth, "Chiller".... The perfect combo will happen

He had both, so I can't really say. Maybe it'd have a slightly larger effect on a fully stock cooling system? I think his plan is to add some type of additional cooling system like the Killer Chiller (or something that uses the AC system for additional cooling).

**Tony@EPL** · 09-22-2016 08:20 AM

Looks great!

I'd love to see logs with more water and less meth!

**jran76** · 09-22-2016 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Tony@EPL

Looks great!

I'd love to see logs with more water and less meth!

Yep, looks strong. I'm sure he'd be willing to do that if he hasn't already.

**Thurston** · 09-22-2016 08:34 AM

I'm not good with reading these things but I would have thought the iat's would have been significantly lower w/ the meth set up compared to the non meth set up at rpm's above 4k. What part should I be looking at in order to realize how special this set up is? boost?

**BlownOne** · 09-22-2016 08:37 AM

Great info! Sucks that the meth isn't helping more, but like you pointed out, he gained .6 psi of boost, had a bit more timing and there wasnt any timing being pulled up top.

**BlownOne** · 09-22-2016 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Thurston

I'm not good with reading these things but I would have thought the iat's would have been significantly lower w/ the meth set up compared to the non meth set up at rpm's above 4k. What part should I be looking at in order to realize how special this set up is? boost?

You'd want to look at the iat's, the actual ingnition and the knock correction columns

**andthen** · 09-22-2016 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Tony@EPL

Looks great!

I'd love to see logs with more water and less meth!

Ask and you shall receive! I'm almost thru this batch I mixed. I'll get with you on this soon.

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**colby7** · 09-22-2016 08:44 AM

That's really temping. I just don't know if I want to make a commitment to keeping the meth tank filled all of the time.

**jran76** · 09-22-2016 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Thurston

I'm not good with reading these things but I would have thought the iat's would have been significantly lower w/ the meth set up compared to the non meth set up at rpm's above 4k. What part should I be looking at in order to realize how special this set up is? boost?

There are obviously a lot of variables that impact performance, and some of those are captured here. Boost, IATs, timing, knock correction, and bypass are the main ones shown. You kind of have to take them as a whole in terms of how it effects overall performance (one reason I provided a summary at the end). You could look at others that may provide some insight that aren't logged here: air mass, EGT/lambda readings, fuel trims, etc.

I posted this because someone had specifically asked if meth was more beneficial than an upgraded heat exchanger, and several people said it was or something along the lines of they had seen a 20 degree drop on another platform (which won't happen here). I think the take away is that it is beneficial in some ways, but not purely in terms of IAT's compared to some other platforms (or a good upgraded heat exchanger on this one).

**mrmomo313** · 09-22-2016 08:47 AM

Agreed, not much help with IAT's. Wonder how significant those deltas are though given that meth was off on the third pull... These DP cars generate heat! But those IATs look very good though in that ambient temp. I'm a bit jealous lol. E85 FTW! Thanks for sharing

**RLB6** · 09-22-2016 08:48 AM

Nice post. Really answers the lingering questions whether to meth or not to meth

.

**Thurston** · 09-22-2016 08:49 AM

jran I totally missed your summary at the bottom. thanks.

**GoatMasterUK** · 09-22-2016 08:49 AM

Thank you for the post. My main reasoning for looking at meth is the cost. With my old platform, folks were seeing crazy temp drops, but that was from a turbocharged engine. I just think the cost of these coolers you can buy are expensive in comparison to a meth kit.
What sort of differences are we looking at with the stock cooler vs an aftermarket then? Does it justify the cost or is it better for me to go straight for the MRC package?

*I don't have access to E85 before anyone recommends it.

**jran76** · 09-22-2016 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by mrmomo313

Agreed, not much help with IAT's. Wonder how significant those deltas are though given that meth was off on the third pull... These DP cars generate heat! But those IATs look very good though in that ambient temp. I'm a bit jealous lol. E85 FTW! Thanks for sharing

Yes, E85 does help temps no matter what anyone says. We're going to try and dyno the cars again on Monday, and i'm guessing andthen will see the same or better temps than my non-dual pulley car (we have the same coolant system).

**jran76** · 09-22-2016 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by GoatMasterUK

Thank you for the post. My main reasoning for looking at meth is the cost. With my old platform, folks were seeing crazy temp drops, but that was from a turbocharged engine. I just think the cost of these coolers you can buy are expensive in comparison to a meth kit.
What sort of differences are we looking at with the stock cooler vs an aftermarket then? Does it justify the cost or is it better for me to go straight for the MRC package?

*I don't have access to E85 before anyone recommends it.

My car averaged around 10C drops with the AMS/Alpha system. A lot there depends on the how you capture the data. I did 6 back-to-back 3rd gear passes on the same road in the same conditions when I logged. Obviously as the car gets more heat soaked, you see a bigger benefit. By the 6th pass, I was seeing 10-12C lower IAT's.

The cost for some of the systems isn't bad. The PLM kit is $800 (USD), and the Revo is going for $930 through a group buy on here. Prices may vary there though. I'd recommend something with a larger heat exchanger at a minimum, and the largest reservoir you can get next. A pump would be next on my list, and then something that divorces the coolant loops last.

**613B6** · 09-22-2016 09:35 AM

I run an AWE HE and AEM meth kit, I added a second nozzle lately on the intake tube, the other is on a TB plate. I now inject 1250ml/min total and that's where I saw a huge decrease in IAT's across the delta. On a 57/190 combo I only see approx 30 degree change across 1-4 gear WOT pass even in extreme heat at the strip (went 11.6@117 on pump/meth). As noted, the blower is sucking up a lot of the mix however is almost enough to allow me to run the monster GIAC race file daily. I know with APR having less timing in there race file, S4matty is running meth and race file daily on pump.

**bhvrdr** · 09-22-2016 09:40 AM

Thanks for posting the results Jran!

I am surprised as well that it didnt do more but can see spraying pre-SC is likely eliminating alot of the possible benefits.

Still, there was no knock seen on the meth runs so it is hard to tell how much timing the tuner could add to that car running meth to give it more power. What it does show, though, is that the meth runs have room for more timing (more power) and the non meth runs do not.

Would be interesting to see what spraying post-SC with custom tuning that does an offset on the IAT sensor would produce. As long as you monitored knock there could be some more gains there too.

Boost season will be interesting. Plenty of room left for power it seems, which is great.

Mike

**Tony@EPL** · 09-22-2016 09:43 AM

The logs posted are are great data point... But i think its safe to say that the delta gains on a pump gas car would most likely be larger then this dual pulley e85 car.

Water/Meth is awesome of 91 octane cars that dont have access to e85 to mix!

**GoatMasterUK** · 09-22-2016 10:02 AM

I use 99 here in the UK. No idea what that equates to over the pond.

**GoatMasterUK** · 09-22-2016 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by jran76

My car averaged around 10C drops with the AMS/Alpha system. A lot there depends on the how you capture the data. I did 6 back-to-back 3rd gear passes on the same road in the same conditions when I logged. Obviously as the car gets more heat soaked, you see a bigger benefit. By the 6th pass, I was seeing 10-12C lower IAT's.

The cost for some of the systems isn't bad. The PLM kit is $800 (USD), and the Revo is going for $930 through a group buy on here. Prices may vary there though. I'd recommend something with a larger heat exchanger at a minimum, and the largest reservoir you can get next. A pump would be next on my list, and then something that divorces the coolant loops last.

I've seen some systems for almost double that. Would the cooler be worth getting before the map? MRC are quoting 500 PS and 600nm..

**-leman-** · 09-22-2016 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by jran76

It's injected pre-SC because that's the only way for the factory pressure/temp sensors to see any difference. Ideally, you'd inject post-SC to get a much larger benefit in terms of temperature reduction, but that would be downstream from the pressure/temp sensors. Injecting post-SC would provide some extra safety margin, but no performance benefit unless custom tuned for it.

First of all, thanks for the great data.

I would be interested however to learn more on the cited part. The way I see it, the benefit from injecting upstream to IAT sensor and hence making it "see" the IAT reductions is that if you have any IAT-related corrections (firts of all ignition angle, but probably also boost) they may be cured. Based on the logs above I can't really see more aggressive timing with using W/M however, what I see is that the boost without W/M is (other things equal) slightly lower leading to higher base ignition angle which proves to be a bit more agressive and results in slight knock retard, leading in the end to essentially the same actual ignition angle.

What I'm trying to say is that while on the first glance it looks like W/M gives extra octane (hence no ignition retard) in fact it rather gives extra boost here (well, then possibly extra octane as well since who knows what would be the ignition retard at such boost with no W/M

).

With this in mind I'd say that inject post-charger (in hot air) and pre-charger (cold air which will then be heated during the compression process) would both result in lower IATs as W/M mist evaporation to take out heat will occur in both cases in a similar manner. However, injecting pre-charger is also known to alter the air compression physics (in theory) leading to more efficient compression process and more airflow, which is not the case when you inject post-charger. With more boost based on the above logs I'd say these charger efficiency gains are seen here, and could be probably higher in case of higher W/M flow or more water in W/M mix. So in the end, injecting pre-charger in this application is probably even more efficient than post-charger. Thoughts?

**Older_not_Wiser** · 09-22-2016 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by -leman-

With more boost based on the above logs I'd say these charger efficiency gains are seen here, and could be probably higher in case of higher W/M flow or more water in W/M mix. So in the end, injecting pre-charger in this application is probably even more efficient than post-charger. Thoughts?

Would logging MAF along with these logs be a good indicator of any increased efficiency due to the cooling effects pre charger?

**doug97gxe** · 09-22-2016 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by GoatMasterUK

I use 99 here in the UK. No idea what that equates to over the pond.

93

**cspcrx** · 09-22-2016 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Older_not_Wiser

Would logging MAF along with these logs be a good indicator of any increased efficiency due to the cooling effects pre charger?

No because we do not have a MAF

**-leman-** · 09-23-2016 03:07 AM

As correctly pointed out above 3.0T engine does not have MAF, so air mass is a calculated value. But, seeing slightly more boost and even a fraction more ignition angle at the same engine speed (which is seen in above logs with W/M on compared to W/M off) should give you higher calculated air mass.

So I'd say logging air mass would be still an adequate indicator of increased efficiency, it would not be "real" value seen by dedicated sensor but it would save you hassle trying to deduce the air mass based on the other sensors "real" data available. A kind of workaround approach.

**eklavya** · 09-26-2016 01:24 AM

Has someone tried the cryo2 intercooler sprayer kit, lot of Evo guys are using it with great results?

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

**SwankP3RF3ct10n** · 09-26-2016 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by eklavya

Has someone tried the cryo2 intercooler sprayer kit, lot of Evo guys are using it with great results?

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

And along those lines, what about this thing?... https://www.designengineering.com/ca...yo2-air-intake

**Tony@EPL** · 09-26-2016 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by eklavya

Has someone tried the cryo2 intercooler sprayer kit, lot of Evo guys are using it with great results?

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

Basically the same install as a basic dry nitrous kit... requires a blow down tube to run at the track (involves drilling a while in the the truck floor).

If you were going to go this route, I'd just run a single nozzel ~35-50 shot set up.

**eklavya** · 09-26-2016 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Tony@EPL

Basically the same install as a basic dry nitrous kit... requires a blow down tube to run at the track (involves drilling a while in the the truck floor).

If you were going to go this route, I'd just run a single nozzel ~35-50 shot set up.

So you think it is worth a shot?

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

**jran76** · 09-26-2016 12:37 PM

I mentioned this in another thread, but the plan is for andthen to add an additional nozzle like some others have done, and re-log. That would be spraying 250cc just after the intake filter, and then 1000cc at the throttle body. Right now he is just spraying 1000cc after the intake filter. I'll update accordingly....

**Ze_Nardo6** · 09-26-2016 01:01 PM

How come andthen doesn't post anymore?

**cspcrx** · 09-26-2016 01:07 PM

I would think that the intercooler chillers would work more on our cars. think about how long the water is in contact with the cooler vs how long air is in the intercooler on a turbo car. Seems the impact would be great with the way the system is designed on our cars.

**jran76** · 09-26-2016 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by AudiS4B8

How come andthen doesn't post anymore?

I think he does, but he's just been busy. He had a post above....

Originally Posted by cspcrx

I would think that the intercooler chillers would work more on our cars. think about how long the water is in contact with the cooler vs how long air is in the intercooler on a turbo car. Seems the impact would be great with the way the system is designed on our cars.

There are at least a few people going this route, so you should see some data soon. The preliminary data sounded really good....

**cspcrx** · 09-26-2016 04:03 PM

Interested in seeing those results. Just makes sense as a way to super cool it before you run. Also, you could pop the door which would get the pump running and circulating the fluid through the charger and cool that off as well.

**andthen** · 09-26-2016 06:34 PM

I'm still lurking around, it's just been way to f-ing hot here in Texas to do much with the car. Been working with Tony on my 189mm FD and Meth tuning a bit lately.

I tried more water and less meth today and it was a shit show. 1000cc at 33 percent meth and 66 percent water. IAT went up over 30 degrees in a single 3rd gear to 4th gear highway pull. Too much steam I think. Roots blower is turning out to be a tricky thing to spray meth into. I drained the tank and will mix up a new batch soon. Definitely thinking I need to spray more volume and dare I say less water..

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**-leman-** · 09-27-2016 02:35 AM

Theoretically adding more water should get your IATs down (because higher heat capacity of water vs. meth) while more meth should improve knock tolerance (because higher octane, but then I understand that your runs were on E85 so the knock suppression effect of meth is unclear if any).

It's interesting to see that in practice it all works the other way around...