Discussion: Possible solution to destroying catalytic converters

[torquewrench]

I currently am working thru a bad catalytic converter on my 2011 Audi S4. Searching around, it seems I am not the only one. Some have had more than one set of cats go bad. When they do, they are very labor intensive to replace. Here are 3 possible routes when your cat goes bad:

1) Buy stock cats again. These are extremely expensive to replace, both labor and parts. (>$4K)
2) Buy aftermarket high flow cat (HFC). These are less costly than stock cats, however there is still a risk of these going bad and having to pay for high labor costs again.
3) Run catless and install a 'test pipe'. The risk here is the smell and the sound level may be too high for some drivers. Although tolerable to some, I personally am not willing to make that sacrifice.

However maybe there is another option. If a test pipe was installed, and a catalytic converter (smaller diameter) was moved/welded into the downpipe, this may solve some issues.
A. There shouldn't be any smells and the sound levels should be tolerable.
B. If the cat goes bad, labor will be minimal. I'd suggest having threaded studs installed onto the test pipe to make installation even easier. Anyone who has down a downpipe install knows how the nuts are a bit of a pain to take off. Obviously your secondary O2 will need to be taken care of via software or other method to prevent cat inefficiency engine code from showing up.

Below is a sketch of the stock system vs. proposed. Thoughts?

[Thurston]

cool man i like your thinking here and look forward to the responses. I'd be interested in hearing the sound change w/ high flow cats paired w/ say, an awe touring but the prevalence of the cat issue I keep seeing crop up on here continually is mildly concerning if not covered under the warranty up to 80k or w/e.

[waxxonMTL]

who sell high flow cat ?

and how do you know your cat is screwed ? is it throwing a code ?

[torquewrench]

who sell high flow cat ?

and how do you know your cat is screwed ? is it throwing a code ?

My car is misfiring so bad it will barely idle. When a cat is blocked as badly as mine, you can easily test by removing the O2 sensor and letting the exhaust pressure out. The idle was perfect. (albeit an O2 sensor open circuit code)

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...5#post11893415

[torquewrench]

cool man i like your thinking here and look forward to the responses. I'd be interested in hearing the sound change w/ high flow cats paired w/ say, an awe touring but the prevalence of the cat issue I keep seeing crop up on here continually if mildly concerning is not covered under the warranty up to 80k or w/e.

Audi refused to warranty mine (so far) since there is no engine P0420 code. At this point, I don't trust the clowns to do the work anyway.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...5#post11893415

[BlownOne]

034 was actually doing this to a customers car when I was there last Friday...the owner was on his 4th set of cats so he bought aftermarket cats and had them relocates to somewhere more accessible.

[xpoweruk]

If the HFC's are metallic instead of ceramic I don't see any future issues cropping up TBH

[torquewrench]

Do you know of any bolt on direct aftermarket cats that use metallic definitively?

[Thurston]

Audi refused to warranty mine (so far) since there is no engine P0420 code. At this point, I don't trust the clowns to do the work anyway.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...5#post11893415

i feel you. that is ridiculous on their part imo.

[torquewrench]

i feel you. that is ridiculous on their part imo.

Now even worse news. I called a muffler shop just for kicks. They cant/won't replace a cat that is still under warranty. I'm in hell.

[brainpan]

I like the idea of moving the cat down stream if possible. Fwiw my quote to remove the hfc is much lower than removing the oem cat. 12 hrs for oem and now it's 6 to remove/install the hfc plus 1 or 2 hours to gut them. Now if I had the hfc relocated it would be much cheaper the second time around.

I'm sure there some generic cats out there that would work fine if you relocated them.

Why can't they remove the existing cats? Thats retarded, but I also wouldnt let a muffler shop handle the cat job on these cars. No indy shops in your area?

[torquewrench]

I like the idea of moving the cat down stream if possible. Fwiw my quote to remove the hfc is much lower than removing the oem cat. 12 hrs for oem and now it's 6 to remove/install the hfc plus 1 or 2 hours to gut them. Now if I had the hfc relocated it would be much cheaper the second time around.

I'm sure there some generic cats out there that would work fine if you relocated them.

Why can't they remove the existing cats? Thats retarded, but I also wouldnt let a muffler shop handle the cat job on these cars. No indy shops in your area?

So far, any reputable indy shops will only do direct bolt on, and no cutting/welding. Hoping they don't care that the cats are still under warranty. I'm trying to see if I can get a downpipe ready made and have an indy do the full install. Nothing is going my way so I'm not holding my breath.

[brainpan]

So far, any reputable indy shops will only do direct bolt on, and no cutting/welding. Hoping they don't care that the cats are still under warranty. I'm trying to see if I can get a downpipe ready made and have an indy do the full install. Nothing is going my way so I'm not holding my breath.

Haha I've been down this road too bud I feel your pain. Only difference i was flagged td1 and dealer wouldn't even look at my car. But I guess with all the dealer bs a warranty doesnt even do much for you either.

Sounds like you'd have to get the test pipes installed at an indy then take it to the exhaust shop to have cats welded in or something.

[Jv218]

doesn't JHM currently offer HFC 200 cell?

[torquewrench]

doesn't JHM currently offer HFC 200 cell?

Yes. However I know of an instance where a fellow B8 owner has melted those too. This could be due to engine tunes. Either way I would personally like to make a cat system easy to replace. Would help me sleep.

[creativecody]

034 was actually doing this to a customers car when I was there last Friday...the owner was on his 4th set of cats so he bought aftermarket cats and had them relocates to somewhere more accessible.

Someone went through FOUR sets of cats????!! How does that even happen that many times to 1 person?

[miztahsparklez]

Someone went through FOUR sets of cats????!! How does that even happen that many times to 1 person?

That person is me lol. I will report back and see if this helps.

My guess is that having any sort of tune might make egt too high for the catalyst material and it starts breaking down. Moving it downward may help this. Perhaps hypothetical, but at least replacing cats will be a lot cheaper in the future.


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[brainpan]

Someone went through FOUR sets of cats????!! How does that even happen that many times to 1 person?

ive melted 4 cats , getting the latest set gutted. Using a different shop now and they believe the issues were tune related.

That person is me lol

did you run hfc or oem the second time? ive killed both, its my new favorite hobby

[Sceanzo]

You guys with multiple melted cats, do any of you have oil consumption issues?

[k9lovr]

Im new to this cat failure problem and have not had this issue but can anyone explain how this is not covered under the emissions warranty given it is an emissions part and generally has an extended warranty outside of the factory 4/50k? I believe cats are covered up to 100k miles....

[miztahsparklez]

ive melted 4 cats , getting the latest set gutted. Using a different shop now and they believe the issues were tune related.



did you run hfc or oem the second time? ive killed both, its my new favorite hobby

Oem replacement until now


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[torquewrench]

You guys with multiple melted cats, do any of you have oil consumption issues?

No excessive oil consumption

[miztahsparklez]

Im new to this cat failure problem and have not had this issue but can anyone explain how this is not covered under the emissions warranty given it is an emissions part and generally has an extended warranty outside of the factory 4/50k? I believe cats are covered up to 100k miles....

80k. And it's only covered if aftermarket parts are not involved.&

[k9lovr]

80k. And it's only covered if aftermarket parts are not involved.&

Good to know...thanks!

[abamfo]

Some thoughts of mine on the topic:

1. I have thought about this approach also and I was trying to get a second pipe post the cat from Corsa to no avail. I thought it would make sense to be able to switch between catted and non-catted easily but it did seems more expensive in the end. The cat part which I was thinking about was this from Magnaflow, its metallic http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=59976

2. In the end I decided that the JHM hi-flow cats will do and probably cheaper to install than the above. Mine are going in tomorrow, I can update on sound differential, performance improvement and misfire changes, etc. I did take a photo of the material today and it does look and feel like ceramic materials, NOT metallic, but I am no expert. Not sure why JHM would use ceramic material. When they came out with the second release they didn't give any details, only that they are 300 cell cats. I've attached some pictures below, they are brand new.



3. It looks like it takes a lot of damage for the oxygen sensors to detect issues with the cats from my research of all B8s

4. Tony from EPL did start a thread recently asking about failures in B8.5s, noting that he had found something off with the OEM ECU tune that the cats on certain models were destined to fail

5. Magnaflow are developing direct replacement cats for the B8.5s with ceramic material
http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=52349
http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=52346

[SwankP3RF3ct10n]

That is one shitty looking flange opening/weld.

[abamfo]

That is one shitty looking flange opening/weld.

That's what I thought but I live so far away that it would cost a fortune to send back to JHM but I should add that it's been done on purpose to round out the edges of the inlet as it's identical on both.

The outlet from the exhaust manifold is smaller at 2.3" (from my understanding) so it really shouldn't make any difference, I wouldn't think.

[brainpan]

My jhm insides for reference, I don't know enough about the insides but they seem to be different.

[CELison]

Have you tried bringing it to a different dealer? Or contacted AoA? It's crazy how incompetent your current dealer is.

[torquewrench]

Some thoughts of mine on the topic:

1. I have thought about this approach also and I was trying to get a second pipe post the cat from Corsa to no avail. I thought it would make sense to be able to switch between catted and non-catted easily but it did seems more expensive in the end. The cat part which I was thinking about was this from Magnaflow, its metallic http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=59976


2. In the end I decided that the JHM hi-flow cats will do and probably cheaper to install than the above. Mine are going in tomorrow, I can update on sound differential, performance improvement and misfire changes, etc. I did take a photo of the material today and it does look and feel like ceramic materials, NOT metallic, but I am no expert. Not sure why JHM would use ceramic material. When they came out with the second release they didn't give any details, only that they are 300 cell cats. I've attached some pictures below, they are brand new.

Keep us updated. I called JHM yesterday and they noted the material is metallic, not ceramic. However there has been at least 1 instance of these metallics going bad. Could have been the engine tune, could have been the cats. Hoping it works out for you though.

3. It looks like it takes a lot of damage for the oxygen sensors to detect issues with the cats from my research of all B8s

4. Tony from EPL did start a thread recently asking about failures in B8.5s, noting that he had found something off with the OEM ECU tune that the cats on certain models were destined to fail

5. Magnaflow are developing direct replacement cats for the B8.5s with ceramic material
http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=52349
http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=52346

ECS tuning currently is selling magnaflow ceramic cats. I have these in my garage right now, but not installed. I'll likely return them if I can find a shop to relocate my cats.
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_S4....0T/ES2975030/

[torquewrench]

Have you tried bringing it to a different dealer? Or contacted AoA? It's crazy how incompetent your current dealer is.

I called another dealer which is a 40 minute tow away, and I called AoA. No help so far. I'm currently trying to find a 'tuner' shop that I can have them replace the cats with test pipes and then weld in a universal cat into the downpipe. More phone calls will be made today....hoping for some luck.

[torquewrench]

My jhm insides for reference, I don't know enough about the insides but they seem to be different.

That's strange that both of your JHM cats seem to look different.

[miztahsparklez]

Have you tried bringing it to a different dealer? Or contacted AoA? It's crazy how incompetent your current dealer is.

Why would AoA matter? You're modifying the car beyond factory specs. The dealer replaced mine enough times and said I had to remove my parts if they were going to have AoA examine for replacement.

Seems more than fair.


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[CELison]

Why would AoA matter? You're modifying the car beyond factory specs. The dealer replaced mine enough times and said I had to remove my parts if they were going to have AoA examine for replacement.

Seems more than fair.


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Right.... I put my stock exhaust back on and flashed back to stock in order to get mine replaced. An hour of work to have it done for free is nothing. I said AoA because he has a picture of his failed cat, and basically all of the evidence he could, and they still refuse to believe it's a bad cat.

[torquewrench]

Why would AoA matter? You're modifying the car beyond factory specs. The dealer replaced mine enough times and said I had to remove my parts if they were going to have AoA examine for replacement.

Seems more than fair.


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My car is currently stock at the dealer. AoA is escalating the issue, and I'm waiting to hear back. AoA is telling me that they need a dealer diagnosis to warranty the part. The dealer is saying they can't give a diagnosis without a P420 code. The car is not driveable, so I can't drive around to make a code show up. No one knows what to do it seems.
Even if I go thru this whole process and get Audi to cover the warranty. And that's a big IF. They are only going to warranty 1 cat. And if one is bad, the other is likely to follow soon after. The last thing I want is to constantly be in the shop getting cats replaced. Hence, I'm leaning toward just cutting bait, and have a reputable shop do the work with an aftermarket solution and/or hopefully a custom cat relocation solution as I proposed above.
FYI, I plan to go APR if/when I get all this sorted.

[CELison]

My car is currently stock at the dealer. AoA is escalating the issue, and I'm waiting to hear back. AoA is telling me that they need a dealer diagnosis to warranty the part. The dealer is saying they can't give a diagnosis without a P420 code. The car is not driveable, so I can't drive around to make a code show up. No one knows what to do it seems.
FYI, I plan to go APR if/when I get all this sorted.

They can warranty it without a code so that's bullshit. Audi did it twice for me. Both times the cat fell into pieces on the floor.

[torquewrench]

They can warranty it without a code so that's bullshit. Audi did it twice for me. Both times the cat fell into pieces on the floor.

I actually told him about your example. The manager became visibly angry when I mentioned it. I'm trying to get my current bill so I can get the hell out of there. Even this is like pulling teeth. It takes days for them to call back or respond with numerous calls/emails.

[miztahsparklez]

They can warranty it without a code so that's bullshit. Audi did it twice for me. Both times the cat fell into pieces on the floor.

They can check via bore scope and removing O2 sensors.

Sometimes the failure is at the top only. Before the sensors.


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[CELison]

They can check via bore scope and removing O2 sensors.

Sometimes the failure is at the top only. Before the sensors.


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I went up my dps with a bore scope and showed them the dislodged cat material. OP did the same thing. They replaced mine no questions asked. They looked at his pictures and still said the cat is fine.

[torquewrench]

I went up my dps with a bore scope and showed them the dislodged cat material. OP did the same thing. They replaced mine no questions asked. They looked at his pictures and still said the cat is fine.

I also went on the front side down the front O2 sensor hole with a borescope. I get a lot of blank stares when I show and explain them my testing methodologies and results.