Frankenturbo issues : Need Opinions

[loaded613]

Car: Audi A4 B6 1.8t USP 6spd

Ok so I will try and make a long story short. This all began back in January when I had engine and turbo issues. First my stock turbo blew and then 2 days after getting the frankenturbo installed the motor blew. So since this all started i have had nothing but issues. The one im trying to conquer now is a leaking manifold. It has been in the shop several times for exhaust leaks from the block>manifold and from the manifold>turbo. I got the manifold to turbo fixed 3 times and finally a few weeks ago I got it repaired with new turbo studs,bolts and locking plate. So that seems to have held up but now for the second time I got a leak from the manifold and block. I am not quite sure why this keeps happening. When I get it back from the shop it is whisper quiet and sounds perfect. But over the course of a couple weeks the leak starts to get progressively louder and louder until the point where it sounds like a tractor (where im at right now and it sounds god awful) I have emailed fankenturbo several times about this issue but there solution always seems to be " just put anti seize", which for the life of me I don't think it will help. Now my question to you guys is has anyone else experienced similar problems and if so how do i go about making sure this never happens again. Also now that I have to take the turbo apart again would you recommend getting new studs even though theses ones have been on the car for less than a month? Would using lock-tite on all the bolts help at all? Is there any type of certain gasket I should be using or just not use a gasket at all? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Im at the point where i just want to sell the car and not have to deal with it, but I love my car and would rather just fix it and keep it. Thanks!

[texasboy21]

Have you tested the mating surface of the manifold to ensure its perfectly flat? Might be worth have a shop resurface it so it will sit flush.

[loaded613]

Have you tested the mating surface of the manifold to ensure its perfectly flat? Might be worth have a shop resurface it so it will sit flush.

I'm pretty sure it's perfectly flat only because when it's first put on it doesn't leak at all but I guess it is a possibility. Another thing is that's more money I gotta shell out because of frankenturbo kit. But at this point I'll do whatever it takes to make it work.

[thomastollar]

Are you saying you have not tried Loctite, or you have and it did not help?

[Toronto5.5]

Are you using a gasket between the manifold and the turbo?

[loaded613]

Are you saying you have not tried Loctite, or you have and it did not help?

No i have not tried lock tite yet. Is there one that can withstand the extreme temperature?

Are you using a gasket between the manifold and the turbo?

There is one between the manifold and block and one between the manifold and turbo.

[old guy]

The F21L high flow exhaust manifold is a bit tricky to install but as long as the manifold face is flat there is no reason why you can’t maintain a proper seal. Mine has been on for ~25K miles with no issues. I suspect part of your problem may be that the nuts aren’t being tightened properly onto the studs. If you look through my F21L installation DIY there is a picture of the tools I used to insure that the nuts were tightened properly.

Here’s another tip. Put a thin film of Permatex Exhaust and Muffler Sealer on the nuts and studs prior to tightening everything. Exhaust component temperatures are way too high for using Lock-tite. The Permatex can handle the temperatures without degrading and the parts can still be removed if necessary.

I received this tip from Seerlah. He has been doing this for years and has never had the exhaust hardware back off.

[Toronto5.5]

FWIW I used antiseize on the studs from the head to the manifold and it worked great, doesn't leak. I barely drive the car though, so YMMV.

[thegamepimp]

Digging up an old thread here... I keep having the bolts stretch between the manifold and turbo creating a leak. I replaced the studs with grade 8 bolts, still stretching again. About every 2 weeks they need re-torqued. Did you ever sort this out? Frankenturbo F21L Mixed flow setup with the FT manifold. I have a locking plate and used antiseize, they are not backing out they are stretching. The studs that came with the kit looked horrible from less than a month (stretched and no longer straight) so I went the ill advised route of replacing them with quality grade 8 bolts (its a pain because you need to remove the manifold to replace them) but still after a month it started leaking and then again 2 weeks after I re-torqued them...

Looking for a permanent solution.

[Kevin C]

Digging up an old thread here... I keep having the bolts stretch between the manifold and turbo creating a leak. I replaced the studs with grade 8 bolts, still stretching again. About every 2 weeks they need re-torqued. Did you ever sort this out? Frankenturbo F21L Mixed flow setup with the FT manifold. I have a locking plate and used antiseize, they are not backing out they are stretching. The studs that came with the kit looked horrible from less than a month (stretched and no longer straight) so I went the ill advised route of replacing them with quality grade 8 bolts (its a pain because you need to remove the manifold to replace them) but still after a month it started leaking and then again 2 weeks after I re-torqued them...

Looking for a permanent solution.

FYI, metric bolt designations can be confusing. A metric 8.8 is similar to a US grade five. I think under load the manifold is expanding a more than the bolts and the alloy you have has low strength at temperature.

Under load, bolt strength drops off as loading increases, the bolts stretch. At cold start you have a leak.

I would start with factory fasteners.

A suggestion would be to have bolts that expand at a similar rate as the exhaust manifold and that have good high temperature properties. A SS 310 alloy might help. The CTE is slightly higher than iron / steel and its good at high temperatures. Lots of alloys to choose from.

[Matt Devo]

I would start with factory fasteners.

A suggestion would be to have bolts that expand at a similar rate as the exhaust manifold and that have good high temperature properties. A SS 310 alloy might help. The CTE is slightly higher than iron / steel and its good at high temperatures. Lots of alloys to choose from.

factory bolts aren't an option unfortunately since the manifold design dictates the use of bolts a good 15-20mm longer

[Kevin C]

factory bolts aren't an option unfortunately since the manifold design dictates the use of bolts a good 15-20mm longer

There goes that idea... Seriously, it might help to know what alloy the factory used. Either way, it sounds like higher temperature bolts are needed.

[thegamepimp]

I am open to options, it just seemed when I talked to Doug that he had never experienced the problem... That is when I went to Fastenal and got the beefy bolts to replace the studs, they did need to be longer than the factory studs or bolts. I can go and see what other options they have as far as bolt composition with a higher temp rating. Finding the right thing online was like pulling teeth since no one could even give me a proper bolt length to go for. I will have to dig out the receipt to see what length I ended up with. I would also note, which I forgot to mention, it is only the two outside bolts, I am also leaning towards improperly milled flange on the manifold since it is not all 3 bolts that become loose (stretched).

[B5nDisciple]

Many people have had that issue including Metalman (look up his B5 A4 thread). Knowing that I went straight to using ARP Studs with Nord Lock washers and the 034 locking plate and super high temp anti seize upon initial install. While I did have to tighten the inner bolt that it's impossible to get a torque wrench on a bit initially, my setup has been flawless for over a year.

I can't remember the length offhand but I know there is a "Frankenturbo issues" thread (or something like that) where that specific issue and length of the bolts is mentioned. It's an expensive solution, but works well.

Edit/Found the thread:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=483555

And a pic from my setup in said thread...

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[thegamepimp]

Many people have had that issue including Metalman (look up his B5 A4 thread). Knowing that I went straight to using ARP Studs with Nord Lock washers and the 034 locking plate and super high temp anti seize upon initial install. While I did have to tighten the inner bolt that it's impossible to get a torque wrench on a bit initially, my setup has been flawless for over a year.

I can't remember the length offhand but I know there is a "Frankenturbo issues" thread (or something like that) where that specific issue and length of the bolts is mentioned. It's an expensive solution, but works well.

Edit/Found the thread:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=483555

And a pic from my setup in said thread...

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Dude, thanks so much for finding this. Did you go with 80mm bolts? I had used 70mm from Fastenal most recently, I did not have Nord locks on just the locking plate. Looking at your picture I can't say that I believe the locking plate is doing much there other than creating a little more space. I am wondering if I should go 75mm and 1 Nord Lock per bolt or stick with 70mm, the length seemed good. My issue is not that they back out, they are not moving with the locking plate, I am certain they are stretching. I also saw a lot of people recommending re-torquing when the engine was nice and hot, am I wrong to assume that torquing them down when the metal is most expanded would be less effective than torquing at dead cold? I get that a heat cycle will be necessary to let it expand and relax, but then re-torque cold.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...1009/overview/ - This is a hex head, the locking plate could be more effective I would think, what are your thoughts?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...1009/overview/ - 12 point Stainless

Stainless or chromoly? The inner me says if it costs more I should get Stainless, but then 12 point or 6?

But seriously, thanks a lot to you and everyone else who has been responding.

[B5nDisciple]

Dude, thanks so much for finding this. Did you go with 80mm bolts? I had used 70mm from Fastenal most recently, I did not have Nord locks on just the locking plate. Looking at your picture I can't say that I believe the locking plate is doing much there other than creating a little more space. I am wondering if I should go 75mm and 1 Nord Lock per bolt or stick with 70mm, the length seemed good. My issue is not that they back out, they are not moving with the locking plate, I am certain they are stretching. I also saw a lot of people recommending re-torquing when the engine was nice and hot, am I wrong to assume that torquing them down when the metal is most expanded would be less effective than torquing at dead cold? I get that a heat cycle will be necessary to let it expand and relax, but then re-torque cold.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...1009/overview/ - This is a hex head, the locking plate could be more effective I would think, what are your thoughts?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...1009/overview/ - 12 point Stainless

Stainless or chromoly? The inner me says if it costs more I should get Stainless, but then 12 point or 6?

But seriously, thanks a lot to you and everyone else who has been responding.

You're very welcome. I'm pretty sure that I went with 80 mm, but don't quote me on it. I know that I needed proper spacing with the lock washers and the 034 plate. I checked the spacing and mock fit everything together multiple times off of the car before putting it all together. The bolts I chose would have been too long without the spacing. With the frankenturbo housing, it is very important to ensure that the bolts do not go too deep and ruin the threads / get stuck. I also went with the 12-point as you can see by the photos.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[MetalMan]

Grade 10.9 is where it's at. I've been using M10x80 hex head bolts from McMaster-Carr for some time now. To my knowledge they haven't stretched excessively.
I do trim them to length as needed (in my case, ~77mm length was ideal).
https://www.mcmaster.com/#91310a138/=1bpahhe

And I drill holes in the bolt heads to do safety wire:



I've been quite fortunate that 2 years have passed with this configuration, and no issues.
There is one caveat though: I'm using the ATP gasket for K03/K04, as I believe this to be one of the best gasket options for these turbos.
https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...ory_Code=VVWGK
It's a single layer, with a sealing lip that will deform to the needed shape between turbo/manifold.
Previously I had issues with good sealing when using the stock-style multi-layer metal gaskets, and even a Cometic gasket.