Second guessing engine build...

[BARRY]

So...my 4th B6, is the second stock 1.8t i've owned. this avant was picked up only 98k miles on the odometer, but needed quite a bit of work to make it road worthy. I have had plans to build a motor which was a project from my first B6, but still lingers on. The engine build has been on hold quite a few years due to many life occurrences like unemployment, other cars breaking down, etc etc.

question, how many of you have modified your cars only to wish your engine was all original again. or reverted your engines back to factory original? my latest car has had its head rebuilt, head gasket, timing belt, water pump, etc...it runs great. solid power, and oddly I don't feel I need anymore. This most recent car really leaves me not wanting more power. it has enough. my black sedan currently is equipped with an APR 2+ with all the bolt on's available. although quicker than my avant, it just doesn't feel as solid and livable. be it the noise, vibration, surge of power (instead of linear), or a combination of it all. my 2nd B6 was also all original, but was awfully slow in comparison to my newest B6. quite honestly even if someone offered me a free ECU tune I'd turn them down.

what are your guys thoughts? maybe i'm just getting old? what gives?

[onceover]

I sold my BAT B6 and bought a bone stock B8 Avant. I'm pretty happy with it but do miss the power. Probably have a exhaust and chip coming shortly though!

[ShogunR32]

I went from a big turbo sedan to a stock avant with just exhaust and FMIC. I miss the power greatly, Hope fully getting some software will hold me off.

[G-Ride]

Yeah, I'm partly on that mindset. I had a stock 190ps 1.8T the other week for a few days and found it to be nicely refined. No vibration, no harshness, smooth onset of power that was ample. Then I got back in my car and I was like....hmmm. It got me thinking about putting the stock hardware including mounts back into the car and enjoying smooth driving. Since putting in 034 SD engine mounts its been a vibration bucket.

[old guy]

I gotta say I am extremely happy with the easy bolt on performance of the F21L mixed flow kit. The car still feels pretty much OEM but with an additional 100+ HP. There's no big turbo rush but it's still very entertaining to drive. There's also none of the challenges associated with a big turbo build. Fuel economy is fine as long as you don't beat on it. All in all an nice little upgrade.

[J3RR3L]

I gotta say I am extremely happy with the easy bolt on performance of the F21L mixed flow kit. The car still feels pretty much OEM but with an additional 100+ HP. There's no big turbo rush but it's still very entertaining to drive. There's also none of the challenges associated with a big turbo build. Fuel economy is fine as long as you don't beat on it. All in all an nice little upgrade.

I always thought "if I just kept my gtrs setup". Not too much power bit enough to be fun. After doing a full build I rarely drive it.

[Furly]

If you have the $$ and spare car, do it.

Take your time,plan it out, and get a solid setup going that will be reliable for the most part. The reason so many people break their car and regret it, is because they push the limits of the 1.8T. You have a gtx28 right? That would be the perfect setup.just do rods and valve train. If you do aftermarket pistons itll just be one more thing the machine shop can fuck up. Stock pistons should be ok for 500hp from what i hear. Use water meth and you should be good.

[Charles.waite]

Mild build makes the most sense to me. But I'm an old guy I guess.

GTRS-ish power is really all you need to have enough power to have fun, and not kill yourself with parts breaking all the time. My eventual plans for my b7 include a TD05H-20g setup (JHM Stage 3) and I think thats really the perfect blend of power and keeping it simple.

[Turbavanttro]

If its going to be driven as a daily, I agree with the above. Before I went all-in, I really loved my GTRS steup and it was reliable and fun, pretty close to perfect for an everyday car without modifying internals and avoiding power levels that start to deteriorate and brake various components.

If you feel like this level of power is what suits your goals, AND you want to find a turbo that makes GTRS power but spools faster, take a look at the small frame (B-1) Borg Warner EFR turbos like the 6258 or 6758. Would be awesome to see someone use one of these on a mild BT 1.8T build. http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/files/p...ower_chart.pdf

[deyrag]

Or sell it and buy a 3.0

[PreciseD]

If its going to be driven as a daily, I agree with the above. Before I went all-in, I really loved my GTRS steup and it was reliable and fun, pretty close to perfect for an everyday car without modifying internals and avoiding power levels that start to deteriorate and brake various components.

If you feel like this level of power is what suits your goals, AND you want to find a turbo that makes GTRS power but spools faster, take a look at the small frame (B-1) Borg Warner EFR turbos like the 6258 or 6758. Would be awesome to see someone use one of these on a mild BT 1.8T build. http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/files/p...ower_chart.pdf

Yeah that 6258 would be a perfect turbo ;)

[dougyfresh]

Barry. This is a challenging question yet a valid one with significance. Most folks think this at one point or another.

On one hand there is something to be said about having 400bhp at your disposal but in this chassis it comes at a cost (financial and mental).

I never drove my B6 daily when I built it because I had to drive across Hartford every day. I was paranoid my car would get hit and totaled out. So I drove 'beaters'. a '99 Cherokee and then an '01 A4 avant. Both vehicles were hit during my commute. My idea of not driving the B6 was smart.

Most folks who went down the path of building their B6 would not recommend driving it every day mainly because there was a tiny thought in the back of their mind regarding whether or not it would leave them on the side of the road. Yes. Contrary to what folks might think about my car, it did worry me occasionally. The only worry I had was the occasional fouling of spark plugs a lot but I kept two sets of plugs and one extra set of coil packs in the car at all times with the proper tools. Small price to pay for tripling the engine's factory power output.

My commute now does not take me across the city and has significantly less risk of accidents. There are days I wish my B6 was in its state circa 2012 but there are more days where I am stoked to be behind the wheel of a stg1 B5 A4 1.8T 5spd avant with 235k miles. Gets great gas mileage. Comfortable to drive and just plain old works with very few headaches (just wheel bearings and a sticking brake caliper). Could it handle better with slightly stiffer springs and big sway bars? yes, but that costs money and already resides in the B6. Do I worry about it? No. I do keep a spare set of coil packs in the trunk but have never had to touch them nor the spark plugs in the past 50,000 miles I've driven it in the past 4 years.

Now, whenever I can finish rebuilding my B6 that will be my daily driver again and I'll give my B5 to my mom to drive as a winter car. This time the B6 will be OEM again and just as reliable as my B5. The difference being just a stg2 2.7T. What makes this different from a 'built 1.8T'? The only non-OEM part in the drivetrain is the flywheel, clutch and custom exhaust downpipes I still have to make. Everything else is all parts from Audi from 5 different cars ('01 S4, '02 A4 1.8T, '02 A4 3.0, '04 S4, '04 A6). Plus the engine is not under a lot of stress like a 400awhp 1.8T is.

So. clif notes:
1) modded B6 --- requires time and money to create. time and money to maintain
2) stock vehicle --- requires money to purchase. requires little time and little money to maintain
3) mildly modded vehicle --- requires time and money to create. requires little time and little money to maintain (if modded appropriately)


Good luck!

[BARRY]

very good information guys. thanks a lot for your real life examples! lots of thinking to do.

[jonan]

i am in the same boat as you currently, i just spent a lot of time an money refreshing the interior of my car...once i finish refreshing the suspension i'm going to start working on my motor...

here's the thing though, my motor has been rock solid and burns ZERO oil...i've been APR stage 1+ since around ~20,000 miles and am now ~160,000 miles...motor has been solid...

my only fear is that if i break open my motor to swap in some rods, bearings, do valvetrain work or change the piston rings my car will start to eat oil...i'm not going any bigger than a GTRS eliminator or maybe a GTRS eliminator with the compressor upgrade...

maybe i'll just do rods, i don't know much about motors and just started doing my own research...so i'm not sure how much life the valves, springs or cams have left in them or if having 160,000+ miles on them place them in danger of exploding when exposed to the additional horses that a GTRS would bring along...

the other question is do i build it myself or have a shop do it...i've read in various threads that there is literally no room for error in a motor build, but the term "error" is never really qualified or quantified in a manner that i can easily understand...that being said, the ability to build a motor is definitely a skill that i am willing to invest the time in to obtain and money in for the required tools...

[AudiA4_20T]

Most folks who went down the path of building their B6 would not recommend driving it every day mainly because there was a tiny thought in the back of their mind regarding whether or not it would leave them on the side of the road.

This was always a fear. Also, ask everyone how many times they had to rebuild? Just rods usually didn't do it, but boring cylinders out and tolerances would sometimes mean the motor had to get rebuilt again. Then there's the issue of finding the limits of so many things. I loved my B6, it felt like it was going to tear the pavement off the ground, but sometimes I wished it was still 1+ with coilovers and just ran great every day. The 2.7T swap was a nice swap in the middle, but still needed more than a 1.8T.

[diagnosticator]

If you have the $$ and spare car, do it.

Take your time,plan it out, and get a solid setup going that will be reliable for the most part. The reason so many people break their car and regret it, is because they push the limits of the 1.8T. You have a gtx28 right? That would be the perfect setup.just do rods and valve train. If you do aftermarket pistons itll just be one more thing the machine shop can fuck up. Stock pistons should be ok for 500hp from what i hear. Use water meth and you should be good.

Stock pistons good to 500 hp, maybe that is someone's limited experience, but there is no actual information for long term reliability or even if several setups running at 500 hp are still in running or for how long. The stock light weight cast pistons used in the AMB are a ticking time bomb at more than ~220 hp. More important than max hp, is the peak torque value and the RPM that peak torque occurs at. Twice the stock boost and torque at lower RPM, stresses the pistons and rods a lot more than the equivalent torque/hp at high RPM.

Audi uses forged pistons and rods in the TT225 BAM 1.8T for example. This is firm evidence that forged pistons and rods are justified at ~225 hp and higher, necessary for reliability over unlimited mileage. The stock AMB pistons and rods are designed specifically to improve emissions, with the added benefit of light weight castings reducing wear from reciprocating forces that provoke vibration.

IMO, running stock cast pistons at more than ~220 hp, cannot be supported by the technicalities involved, is very unlikely unlimited running time and any setups using stock pistons and rods at higher peak torque and hp is only a misguided experiment for how long the engine can run before exploding.

[diagnosticator]

Winston's Avant (Podi gauge guru,) was one of the most modified 1.8Ts. Read his description about his regrets for the extensive mods to his Avant. Here:http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ht=regret+mods

[eljay]

Well, I have nowhere near the experience of other contributors to this thread, so I will just chime in on the topic of owning a modified B6. I wasn't looking for a modded one, but I bought one.
I sold my 2000 Golf 1.8T with 225k kms and bought a B6 Avant with 270k kms. I've always wanted an Avant and with an Ultrasport package. My Golf's engine was not modified at all - it had the factory 150hp 1.8T. I did however add whole bunch of OEM+ bits to it like GTI seats, GTI steering wheel, 20AE headlights etc. It looked like I wanted it. But I digress...
I bought my Avant because I've always wanted one in Ultrasport trim and 6-speed. The fact that it has mods like GTRS kit, custom exhaust, lower suspension didn't really matter to me. They were a bonus on a car that I bought at a good price and I thought with my new garage, I'd learn something about cars and maintain it on my own. The result is that my journey is quite the opposite: I am de-modding this car to make it quiet, more reliable and driveable daily car I and my wife can enjoy without giving her any special instructions on what not to do etc. I only hope that the GTRS kit and the engine last as I have no desire to get into that business. For my own hobbyist tendencies, if I can find a cheap 1.8T block, I'd buy it and rebuild it (not "build it") just to learn how this engine works hands-on. At 175k miles on mine, I sometimes dread that a day that I will actually need a new one may come unexpectedly. Which is why I recently had a leakdown test done before pouring more money into this car. The results were 2% leakdown on three and 3% on one cylinder. Impressive results for this mileage with GTRS kit on it for the past 50k mls. So, I hope I have a few more miles in this engine.
In summary, my direction is:
- quieter exhaust with a cat
- learn about Maestro tuning and re-tune to a less aggressive and more driveable characteristic
- raise the ride height
- add my desirable OEM+ bits to enjoy the car more: Recaros, colour cluster, get rid of the column boost gauge, ecodes
- usable touchscreen headunit
- clean up the various dings on the exterior
- get another 100k out of it!
- don't ruin my bank account...completely