Going to Stage 2 on a daily driver S4 ... what are the cons/risks/drawbacks?

[danmm7]

I am well aware of all the positives of doing Stage 2 tune on our cars, but i want to focus on all the 'negatives', before i pull the trigger on this.

My car is 2011 S4, DSG with Sport Diff. About 73k miles. Very well maintained. No current issues. Currently running EPL Stage 1 and intake.
Honestly, i was not super impressed by the difference from stock to Stage 1. Yes, the car is faster in 0-60 and 1/4 mile according to all the measuring gear i could find and it does feel stronger at high RPMs, but overall, i was expecting a more 'wow' factor compared to stock. Lets blame this on my unrealistic expectations.

Lately i am seriously starting to consider going to EPL's Stage 2 setup (pulley + software) and potentially, DSG tune as all.

My S4 is pretty much my daily driver. I commute with it 2-3 times a week in heavy SF Bay Area traffic. It sees a good mix of city, slow traffic, and highway driving + some short city trips (not ideal).
Keeping the car reliable and trouble free is my top goal. So far, for the last 16-17 months, it has been great. I am very handy and not afraid to work on it, but i rather stick to planned maintenance related service procedures (fluids, filters, brakes, belts, etc) vs spending days and $$$ to fix expensive complex problems. The biggest one that keeps me awake at night is potential DSG problems. :(

IF I decide to go Stage 2, realistically speaking, at this mileage, how will this affect the reliability of my car? Specifically - will the extra SC boost and HP/torque cause significant additional engine wear? More DSG wear? Increase the risk of DSG failure?
After all, if these cars were designed to reliably handle, lets say ..., 300hp (and we all know the S4, even stock, is NOT the most reliable car), how will additional the SC boost and another 80-100 extra hp affect the transmission and the entire drivetrain - in the LONG RUN? I plan to keep my car for another 2-3 years at least.

As far as my driving style, I do not race my car at every stop light, i am pretty reasonable driver, not too aggressive, with only occasional fast runs. So, stock or Stage 1-2, regardless .... i really try not to abuse my car much, but i want to have the extra power on tap.


For those of you who have gone Stage 2, and i know there are many of you here,... i am really curious to hear how this has affected the reliability of your cars?
How many miles have you put on the car since going to Stage 2?
What was the effect on the Gas Mileage with the Stage 2 upgrade?
Any DSG issues?
Is it even a good idea to go Stage 2 on a daily driver S4?

Should i absolutely do the DSG tune as well or it's not necessary if I'm not pushing the car hard and often?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

[bhvrdr]

Stage 2 of all the reputable tuners including the one you are considering has been proven to be reliable.


If replacing the DSG or even an engine would make a significant financial impact on you, i'd avoid any type of tuning and enjoy aesthetic or handling/braking mods. If it would be only an inconvenience, have at it and enjoy. It transforms the car and the chances of a drivetrain failure are likely less than 1 in a hundred.


Mike

[onlyaudis]

have you tried adding 4 gallons of E85 per fill up? that transformed my EPL stage 1 tune into a much more noticeable power gain. our 91 here in California is weak sauce. I got as much gain from stage 1 to E85 mix as I did from from stock to stage 1. If you haven't done the dsg tune, you are also not getting all you can out of your stage 1 tune.

no matter what people want to believe, there is no way the added boost all the time that a stage 2 offers isn't going to affect reliability long run on these cars, and probably more than a "1% increase" of issues. you are adding torque, a lot more heat, and the stresses that come with them on the cooling system, clutch discs, drive line parts, exhaust, cats, sports dif etc. Not worried about the engine itself as much as the DSG stuff, the sports dif, the super expensive cats.

Will the car fall apart within a few months of doing a pulley? not likely. are your chances of a DSG or sports dif or cat failure increased, I would say without a doubt, and that how much more likely is not yet fully documented

[Sudz]

Pro's: large smile.
Con's: gas mileage will suffer.

[mrmomo313]

IF I decide to go Stage 2, realistically speaking, at this mileage, how will this affect the reliability of my car? Specifically - will the extra SC boost and HP/torque cause significant additional engine wear? More DSG wear? Increase the risk of DSG failure?
After all, if these cars were designed to reliably handle, lets say ..., 300hp (and we all know the S4, even stock, is NOT the most reliable car), how will additional the SC boost and another 80-100 extra hp affect the transmission and the entire drivetrain - in the LONG RUN? I plan to keep my car for another 2-3 years at least.

As far as my driving style, I do not race my car at every stop light, i am pretty reasonable driver, not too aggressive, with only occasional fast runs. So, stock or Stage 1-2, regardless .... i really try not to abuse my car much, but i want to have the extra power on tap.


For those of you who have gone Stage 2, and i know there are many of you here,... i am really curious to hear how this has affected the reliability of your cars?
How many miles have you put on the car since going to Stage 2?
My car was stock for 57.5k miles (intake only for those miles). The mech unit failed around that mileage. After getting the car back I went straight to APR stage 2. At around 67k miles I went "dual pulley." Now at 69.7k miles. Aside from a motor mount going at 62k and my OEM downpipes leaking at the flex pipes (69.5k), I haven't had any real major issues.

What was the effect on the Gas Mileage with the Stage 2 upgrade?
LOL...

Any DSG issues?
No, and I think I'm still one of the few running a stock TCU on a stage 2+ DSG. I remember my last 1/4 mile runs on stage 2 being flawless in terms of the transmission behavior. This trans is very good at adapting to your usage.

Is it even a good idea to go Stage 2 on a daily driver S4?
Totally. Before Dual pulley I used my s4 as a dd on apr's stage 2 pump file. It was awesome. Drove like OEM but the go pedal was a lot more fun to play with

Should i absolutely do the DSG tune as well or it's not necessary if I'm not pushing the car hard and often?
IMHO no you don't need to absolutely do it. That said the dsg tunes offer some cool features. You would need to decide if it's worth having.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

Answered in bold on my thoughts of stage 2.

Also bolded the part you mentioned. I would not hesitate going stage 2 with that kind of use. These cars can safely manage stage 2 power levels. Lots of guys have racked up the mileage on stage 2 without issue.

[danmm7]

How much of a drop should I expect in mpg? I expect some decrease but If current mpg with stage 1 is around 19-20mpg mixed, what happens with stage 2?
15? 12? 10? 17mpg? This is kind of an important 'detail' for a daily driver. :)

[phxS4]

How much of a drop should I expect in mpg? I expect some decrease but If current mpg with stage 1 is around 19-20mpg mixed, what happens with stage 2?
15? 12? 10? 17mpg? This is kind of an important 'detail' for a daily driver. :)

Depends on your driving style and conditions. I'm stage 2 and can get 20 mpg mixed. I can also get higher if I'm doing a road trip.

[cspcrx]

Just went stage 2 a few weeks ago and am very happy. The TCU has improved many of the odd shifts that I would get during my drive to and from work. Love the extra power but you don't have to always use it so mpg doesn't get destroyed. The extra torque and power down low is very useable in your daily drive.

[danmm7]

cspcrx, How many miles do you have on your 2012?

[SwankP3RF3ct10n]

Ask Tony if you can try out the DSG tune for a few days or a week (to give the ECU time to readapt after clearing DTCs and learned trims. To me, it's quite surprising how much more punchy Stage 1 feels with DSG tune as opposed to OEM on that while having Stage 1. If you like it, keep it. If not, flash back and then go with your original consideration of Stage 2, etc. It certainly doesn't hurt to ask. He's a reasonable guy.

[danmm7]

...


If replacing the DSG or even an engine would make a significant financial impact on you, i'd avoid any type of tuning and enjoy aesthetic or handling/braking mods. If it would be only an inconvenience, have at it and enjoy. ....


Mike

Well, if i have to spend $5k on DSG repair, i can do it, but i will not be happy, especially at low miles (sub 100k). I can afford it, but it is not about the money. If the DSG was built too fragile to start with, and Stage 2 tune is known to shorten its life even more, then Stage 2 sounds like a bad idea to me - regardless if i have the money sitting in the bank or not. Some cars are built to take the extra power just fine (beefed up transmissions, strong drivetrain, good cooling, etc, etc) and some are not. All I am trying to figure out, based on everyone's experience here who has Stage 2 tune for a longer period of time .... what kind of consequences (IF any) have they experienced.

If 20 people here ran Stage 2 tune for 2-3+ years and put more than 30k miles on the cars with no big failures/issues, that would be encouraging. If this is unrealistic, then i just need to adjust my expectations.

[creativecody]

Well, if i have to spend $5k on DSG repair, i can do it, but i will not be happy, especially at low miles (sub 100k). I can afford it, but it is not about the money. If the DSG was built too fragile to start with, and Stage 2 tune is known to shorten its life even more, then Stage 2 sounds like a bad idea to me - regardless if i have the money sitting in the bank or not. Some cars are built to take the extra power just fine (beefed up transmissions, strong drivetrain, good cooling, etc, etc) and some are not. All I am trying to figure out, based on everyone's experience here who has Stage 2 tune for a longer period of time .... what kind of consequences (IF any) have they experienced.

If 20 people here ran Stage 2 tune for 2-3+ years and put more than 30k miles on the cars with no big failures/issues, that would be encouraging. If this is unrealistic, then i just need to adjust my expectations.

There are PLENTY of people here running Stage 2 for way more than 30k miles without any issues. Just do it.

[danmm7]

This is a great idea. I will reach out to EPL.

On a related note, i am curious, is there any evidence/reports that the DSG tune may be somehow harmful for the long term reliability of the DSG?
After all, if Audi went with conservative specs on the original DSG software, was this to make it more fuel efficient or more reliable (to run cooler) or both?

I am guessing, the DSG tunes are all too new for us to get any reliable reports on how they affect long term reliability of these transmissions.

[SwankP3RF3ct10n]

The S4 s NOT entirely a performance vehicle by Audi's marketing standards. That is reserved for the RS models, do comfort and quiet was still a focus for them with this car. They knew more normal people would buy them and they needed some serenity from its hardware and behavior. They wanted to make the previous gen S4 better and they did, nothing more. Us picking it and building on it as a performance machine is well... just us working with what we got. At least this is my opinion. There are some limitations, but a lot of people haven't seen them yet. Also, keep in mind, Audi installed an A4 clutch in the S4 for drivability sake. We all know if you drive it like a normal car it'll hold, but anything more and it's just not going to hold up. That's indicative enough of how Audi thought of the S4. Luckily, the DSG is a lot beefier as long as you don't get one with a first gem mech issue or drive range sensors. To my knowledge, we have yet to hear from someone just killing a DSG from tuning or power alone. There was one dude on here about a year ago that got a GIAC DSG tune and immediately had shifting issues and failure, but that got blamed on previous underlying issues with his trans and quickly buried I think. I can't remember where that all went, but I thought it kinda just disappeared off the map. Maybe others can remember. But still, that was one person and there's a ton of others without issues.

[Trent212]

TCU tune is worth it, and i daily mine with APR stage 2 and the TCU tune. I get about 27mpg if i use cruise control and don't have the AC on full blast.

If you are thinking about it, just do it and enjoy your self!

[bhvrdr]

Well, if i have to spend $5k on DSG repair, i can do it, but i will not be happy, especially at low miles (sub 100k). I can afford it, but it is not about the money. If the DSG was built too fragile to start with, and Stage 2 tune is known to shorten its life even more, then Stage 2 sounds like a bad idea to me - regardless if i have the money sitting in the bank or not. Some cars are built to take the extra power just fine (beefed up transmissions, strong drivetrain, good cooling, etc, etc) and some are not. All I am trying to figure out, based on everyone's experience here who has Stage 2 tune for a longer period of time .... what kind of consequences (IF any) have they experienced.

If 20 people here ran Stage 2 tune for 2-3+ years and put more than 30k miles on the cars with no big failures/issues, that would be encouraging. If this is unrealistic, then i just need to adjust my expectations.

Then I think you will be fine. The parts of my quote that you cut off are me saying stage 2 has proven very reliable with likely far less than 1% failure rates. There have literally been thousands of stage 2 packages sold by the popular tuners. There have been a total of less than a half dozen reported engine failures and as far as mechatronics failures there is no evidence stage 2 cars are failing at a significantly higher rate than stock. I don't know of many actual dsg box failures. The mechatronics failures are more common in first year or two cars due to a different design that was corrected by audi (someone with an older car can correct me but I believe older mech units were more exposed to the elements).

There is likely a bit of increased risk of component failures but this platform has shown to be one of the most reliable of any audi platform that I've ever known.

Mike

[audis4culver]

For what its worth, I have a 2011 S4 - Giac Stage 1. Just did the DSG tune at about 36K miles. The DSG is required for stage 2 - so I am trying to get this done in little chunks on my way to stage 2. I am told by the head guys at Giac as well as my trusted mechanic that not only is this tune very reliable, it makes the car run more efficiently by reducing the amount of shifting and wear on the clutches. I do alot of city driving and my dsg is constantly shifting up and down - the tune has reduced the shifting my increasing the shift points. I love my DSG tune - it uncorks what stage 1 is all about. Giac engineer swears that the tune actually makes the engine run more efficiently and my added on performance reader is telling me I am getting better gas mileage than stock - dont know if that is 100% accurate but that is what it says. The biggest item I am told is that stage 2 would really benefit from a separate SC intake cooling unit/reservoir that is on its own line. Reduces the SC temps by 30 celcius according to GIAC head engineer. My summers get hot and my engine feels like it wants to self combust some days. The stand alone unit is very appealing. My first car was an A4 (brand new) with Giac Stage 1 at about 10K - I drove the hell out of it up to about 70K miles when my wife totaled it. Not one single issue with the tune on it.

[kcobourn]

Just got back an oil analysis after the first 6k of APR stage 2 (57k miles right now). The results are awesome - a bit high iron and aluminum but that's expected based on my drive it like I stole it style.

Just do it. I wish I had done this years ago!


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[cjw]

I've been stage 2 for about 6 months now.

I thought stock to stage 1 was a bigger gain than stage 1 to 2 and most tuner dynos seem to match that. I wasn't so much worried about reliability being affected as I was warranty being voided or if I did have an unrelated issue, the dealer might give me grief. There seems to be a ton of people here, many with older cars and much higher mileage that have had Stage 2 for a long time and seemingly trouble free. There are also guys who race and drive a lot harder than I do.

So, any anxiety I have is more related to potential issues that are unrelated to stage 2, but could be pain to deal with with Audi. Anytime you have an issue and you have to drop the car off for a few days, you could be looking at a big bill and no one likes that.

I do like the idea of being mostly stockish with just Stage 2/intake/TCU and flashing back to stock and putting the OEM intake back on. I find dealers are often quick to think any modification caused a problem and I'm not 100% confident in any local import mechanics (never used them, not sure if good).

[kcobourn]

I've been stage 2 for about 6 months now.

I thought stock to stage 1 was a bigger gain than stage 1 to 2 and most tuner dynos seem to match that. I wasn't so much worried about reliability being affected as I was warranty being voided or if I did have an unrelated issue, the dealer might give me grief. There seems to be a ton of people here, many with older cars and much higher mileage that have had Stage 2 for a long time and seemingly trouble free. There are also guys who race and drive a lot harder than I do.

So, any anxiety I have is more related to potential issues that are unrelated to stage 2, but could be pain to deal with with Audi. Anytime you have an issue and you have to drop the car off for a few days, you could be looking at a big bill and no one likes that.

I do like the idea of being mostly stockish with just Stage 2/intake/TCU and flashing back to stock and putting the OEM intake back on. I find dealers are often quick to think any modification caused a problem and I'm not 100% confident in any local import mechanics (never used them, not sure if good).

Yup I had all kinds of anxiety prior to tuning.

Shortly after getting tuned my crank pulley failed and AoA wouldn't cover since my asshole shop tech decided to tell AoA.

It sucks. At the same time since I reflashed I'm not TD1.

I regret nothing.


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[db12]

There is no drawback....and fuel economy as mentioned above is silly considering S4's are not exactly fuel thrifty to begin with. My APR Tune is been nothing but great and I push it to the limit repeatedly with track events and no issues a year later.

[cspcrx]

cspcrx, How many miles do you have on your 2012?

62K when I had the stage 2 installed. I waited until the warranty expired and a sale came up.

[q5 dave]

cons: gas mileage will decrease
risks: speeding tickets
drawbacks: wallet will be slimmer


my stage 2 Q is daily driven. I love it!

[cjw]

The fuel economy really isn't a big deal either. I get 17-18 almost 100% city with a mix of cruising and WOT. Pretty much the same as my much slower IS350 and older G35. Highway 25+.

[brainpan]

Myself and a few other have melted cats since stage 2. Besides that no issues related to the tune. I'm the 2nd S4 locally that has melted cats according to my shop.

Sent from my Note 5

[cjw]

How did you fix the cat issue? Just curious as to the best option if it would ever happen to me.

[brainpan]

How did you fix the cat issue? Just curious as to the best option if it would ever happen to me.

Replaced them with jhm high flow cats

Sent from my Note 5

[MrFunk]

I didn't notice any drop in MPG's

[DBL R]

Replaced them with jhm high flow cats

Sent from my Note 5

did those high flow cats increase drone or exhaust sound?

[mmm def]

Replaced them with jhm high flow cats

Sent from my Note 5

Are they listed on jhm website? Having trouble finding.

[ModItNow]

Are they listed on jhm website? Having trouble finding.

Its kinda hard to find. Here you go..
http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...0t-p-2431.html

[ModItNow]

I didn't notice much drop in MPG going from stage 1 -2. Might be due to not having to mash the pedal as much with the low end torque but when you do get on it I'm sure the milage is less! One thing that will keep the car running optimal is an upgraded cooling system like AWE, AMS, etc.. Your main downfall is you'll spend more money on other mods haha

[OmahaB8]

Don't be scared dude...I've had it for 30k miles and it's amazing. I run the E85 blend and 100 program on GIAC Stage 2. The 100 program with TCU tune is actually smoother than the 93 program I think for drivability.

[z_curtis_s4]

Don't be scared dude...I've had it for 30k miles and it's amazing. I run the E85 blend and 100 program on GIAC Stage 2. The 100 program with TCU tune is actually smoother than the 93 program I think for drivability.

I second the "Don't Be scared." There is really only all pros to going stage 2. I just recently went to stage 2 from stock and an intake, as well as the TCU tune and the car is money. It's tough to describe in words but the car truly drives stock when you want, and fast as hell when you want it to be..and like others have said the TCU tune helps with hiccups/weird shifts. I have owned my car for 3 years prior to going stage 2 and definitely wish I did it sooner.... When I had the work done I also did a DSG fluid/filter change and flush, brake flush as well as an oil change so the car now drives new and fast as hell. Bottom line go for it and never look back. I'm GIAC stage 2 tune w/Emmanuel Design's Pulley and TCU tune BOTH which are still on sale I believe from GIAC. Discounts are always nice

[Hooks S4]

What is the most effective for a daily driver... APR Stage 1 to Stage 2 or APR Stage 1 plus TCU tune? Cant do both right now. 2013 S4...

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[eightamrock]

What is the most effective for a daily driver... APR Stage 1 to Stage 2 or APR Stage 1 plus TCU tune? Cant do both right now. 2013 S4...

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APR stage 2 on my 6MT is priceless. Though guys on here say you aren't getting the full benefit of the tune without the TCU update as well. I'd say TCU before stage 2.


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[kpykng1]

I did the EPL Stage 1 and TCU Tune and it was night and day. All I do is city driving and now I can't seem to justify the Stage 2 now, cause it will be just a marginal gain. Especially with the crappy gas out here in CA.

[TexasDfwS4]

I did the EPL Stage 1 and TCU Tune and it was night and day. All I do is city driving and now I can't seem to justify the Stage 2 now, cause it will be just a marginal gain. Especially with the crappy gas out here in CA.

The stage 2 is for down low (city driving) so it would help to get the stage 2.

[doug97gxe]

Stage 1 is only for those who don't feel like paying labor/doing the work on adding a pulley .. Stage 2 or bust

[db12]

What is the most effective for a daily driver... APR Stage 1 to Stage 2 or APR Stage 1 plus TCU tune? Cant do both right now. 2013 S4...

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Go stage 2 for sure..