GIAC stage 2 with GIAC TCU, would you buy it again?

[Cartoon]

Title says it all...

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[bmoreS4]

bump, im interested to see feedback.

[CELison]

Yes.

[Loe]

Yes, it was a strong tune out of the box, particularly with the race program and how friendly it was with e85/93 mixing.

[brainpan]

Yes

Sent from my Note 5

[bhvrdr]

If I had purchased an S4 out of warranty instead of the 2015 that I had I would have likely gone GIAC as my first choice. Their tune seems very flexible with respect to deciding to go with a dual pulley down the road (they request plenty of boost) and I would have liked to have program switching like they have.

Mike

[DBL R]

Yes, it was a strong tune out of the box, particularly with the race program and how friendly it was with e85/93 mixing.

Would you buy it if you were only going to run Pump.... No race, no e85 mix?

[Lensch09]

Yup. 100%.... Although I'm a manual.

-DL

[613B6]

I wish I bought it the first time, its amazing.

[z_curtis_s4]

I just recently went from stock with an intake, straight to stage 2 and TCU tune. Yes I would do it again. According to my shop the TCU tune is a must because the stock DSG program can't support the extra hp so the TCU tune allows more clamping force etc and makes everything shift and drive like butter. It's a little pricey but is truly worth every penny along with you are basically the fastest car when driving next to 90% daily drivers Also I'd do it NOW because there is a GIAC sale so I got a discount with my purchases.

[bmoreS4]

If I had purchased an S4 out of warranty instead of the 2015 that I had I would have likely gone GIAC as my first choice. Their tune seems very flexible with respect to deciding to go with a dual pulley down the road (they request plenty of boost) and I would have liked to have program switching like they have.

Mike

Do they have program switching for all b8.5's?

[vwblackb5]

Would you buy it if you were only going to run Pump.... No race, no e85 mix?

Yes interested on clarification. After seeing how it fared with the F82 in Mexico (lol), I'm now debating if 3k is worthwhile (on pump) as an intermediate before jumping ship to an F80 if Audi NA doesn't bring the B9 RS4 in 2yrs time.

[bhvrdr]

Do they have program switching for all b8.5's?

I thought they did but maybe i'm wrong. I didnt see that they had an issue with that. Double check me.

http://www.giacusa.com/news_and_medi...ews.php?id=159

[AvusPdx]

how does it compare to APR stage 2 +pulley? I'm wanting to get the TCU tune, assuming I should get the APR TCU instead of the GIAC with my APR stg2. Or are they compatible with other tunes?
What are the major differences between the 2?

Someone mentioned more "clamping force", is this true? I am pretty satisfied with the stock DSG currently, but my concern is risking the longevity of the gear box if I don't have the TCU tune.

[Loe]

Would you buy it if you were only going to run Pump.... No race, no e85 mix?

yes absolutely. the version 2 ECU software and the TCU is well developed, flexible, and really no hiccups.

[nkh79]

I can't comment on the TCU tune as I'm 6MT, but I've had GIAC Stage 2 for about 6 months now and it's been awesome. Wish I had done it sooner...

[EHesh14]

Have had the stage 2 tune and pully since 45k miles...I know have 89k and not one hiccup

[s14roller]

Is the TCU a must on a DSG car? I understand it may be better, but would the stage 2 car without it still drive well or will the upshifts slip?

[vwblackb5]

Yup. 100%.... Although I'm a manual.

-DL

I can't comment on the TCU tune as I'm 6MT, but I've had GIAC Stage 2 for about 6 months now and it's been awesome. Wish I had done it sooner...

For 6MT owners that are Stage 2, how are your clutches holding up if still OEM?


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[MrFunk]

Yes -
Clutch is fine after a couple years. No slipping. All depends on how you drive though.

[1FastS4.Com]

100% YES!! Switching plus E85 support. I miss my S4 so badly!!

[mrmomo313]

Is the TCU a must on a DSG car? I understand it may be better, but would the stage 2 car without it still drive well or will the upshifts slip?

For a B8 car, in my opinion, not necessary if you plan to stay with the standard stage 2 pulley. Beyond that setup it would be a worthwhile mod.

I'm having pretty good results running an aggressive dual pulley setup on the stock 2010 TCU software. I would love the increased redline, improved shift strategies and revised heat management that come with APR's dsg tune. APR can't seem to get their shit together for whatever reason so I'm left without one for god knows how long.

I've reached out to a few members and looked into what pressures the various dsg tunes clamp at on upshifts in WOT, hard throttle and normal driving. From what I can tell my stock TCU hits the same values as GIAC/APR TCU cars at WOT and part throttle. My stock tcu and APR/GIAC TCU's, hit higher values than EPL's standard dsg file. I understand they released a high torque file shortly after a member ditched them for not being happy with how his TCU behaved.

TCU file is a must have for any b8.5 car...

[douglasjboehme]

Yes -
Clutch is fine after a couple years. No slipping. All depends on how you drive though.

Name checks out as someone shifting with soul.

[Lensch09]

For 6MT owners that are Stage 2, how are your clutches holding up if still OEM?


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I swapped out my stocker with 14k on the clock. It seemed to be going okay.

I've never actually had clutch fail on me, or slip excessively. I always swap them out before I wreck them.

For me, it's a PM issue. Clutch can't take the power, replace the clutch first, then add the power. People who do that backwards puzzle me, almost to the point of people who throw big turbos and nitrous at motors even if they know the internals can't take it.

-DL

[DBFL]

I swapped out my stocker with 14k on the clock. It seemed to be going okay.

I've never actually had clutch fail on me, or slip excessively. I always swap them out before I wreck them.

For me, it's a PM issue. Clutch can't take the power, replace the clutch first, then add the power. People who do that backwards puzzle me, almost to the point of people who throw big turbos and nitrous at motors even if they know the internals can't take it.

-DL

Not the best analogy. Installing a huge turbo without upgrading the internals can easily cause catastrophic engine failure. You don't get a whole lot of warning before a rod bends. Doing a stage 2+ tune on the stock will only burn up the clutch, and that's really only if you push it really hard. Plus the clutch gives you plenty of warning before it becomes completely shot. Mine only slips after multiple hard pulls and launches. It is perfectly fine for normal driving. I am about to upgrade because I'm going to be tracking it more often.

[RamW24]

Yes. Went straight to Stage 2 w/ tcu tune @15k miles. Currently @44k, haven't had any problems so far.

[nkh79]

For 6MT owners that are Stage 2, how are your clutches holding up if still OEM?


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Curretnly have about 41k on my 2012 and picked up stage 2 around 34k or so. No issues so far on hard shifts, etc, but I'm pretty easy on it overall. Maybe I'm not having enough fun!

[douglasjboehme]

Not the best analogy. Installing a huge turbo without upgrading the internals can easily cause catastrophic engine failure. You don't get a whole lot of warning before a rod bends. Doing a stage 2+ tune on the stock will only burn up the clutch, and that's really only if you push it really hard. Plus the clutch gives you plenty of warning before it becomes completely shot. Mine only slips after multiple hard pulls and launches. It is perfectly fine for normal driving. I am about to upgrade because I'm going to be tracking it more often.

I think his point is about where is the weakest "link" in the driveline. If you're going to upgrade, the clutch becomes the weakest point. Why not just take care of it before it becomes an issue.

I saw this constantly in the Land Rover community. People would buy locking rear diffs without upgrading their half-shafts only to break a half-shaft on a trail and then have to limp home. Similar to the half-shafts on the D90s, I see the clutch upgrade as an insurance policy against potential risk.

[Lensch09]

Not the best analogy. Installing a huge turbo without upgrading the internals can easily cause catastrophic engine failure. You don't get a whole lot of warning before a rod bends. Doing a stage 2+ tune on the stock will only burn up the clutch, and that's really only if you push it really hard. Plus the clutch gives you plenty of warning before it becomes completely shot. Mine only slips after multiple hard pulls and launches. It is perfectly fine for normal driving. I am about to upgrade because I'm going to be tracking it more often.

Yeah, have had a bit of a conundrum at work here today. A coworker passed away over the weekend and I'm a bit short on analogies right now. You're right, while a clutch mostly will not violently fail all at once "going mock 5 with it's hair on fire," it doesn't logically make sense to add the power before addressing the weak-points first. Or minimally, having a plan (and the funds) in place to expect the failure more quickly than if the power was not added. To those who ask, "will my stock clutch hold x..?," it's difficult to address the question with a definite answer.

Maybe a better analogy would have been to compare the logic of those who buy expensive forged wheels prior to addressing a stock suspension?

I think his point is about where is the weakest "link" in the driveline. I see the clutch upgrade as an insurance policy against potential risk.

Bingo.

[bhvrdr]

Is the TCU a must on a DSG car? I understand it may be better, but would the stage 2 car without it still drive well or will the upshifts slip?

Its a great mod i'm sure but no it is not a "must." There no evidence you are going to grenade the DSG any quicker without a DSG tune versus with a DSG tune and you could argue that launching at a higher 4000rpm of the tuned TCU is likely to cause a bit more abuse. I had a b8.5 with the lower redline and ran an 11.8x on straight 93 octane single state 2 pulley, stock exhaust, stock cooling, stock TCU so its not necessary. The car was still plenty fast. Its nice, i'm sure though.

Mike

[DBFL]

Yeah, have had a bit of a conundrum at work here today. A coworker passed away over the weekend and I'm a bit short on analogies right now. You're right, while a clutch mostly will not violently fail all at once "going mock 5 with it's hair on fire," it doesn't logically make sense to add the power before addressing the weak-points first. Or minimally, having a plan (and the funds) in place to expect the failure more quickly than if the power was not added. To those who ask, "will my stock clutch hold x..?," it's difficult to address the question with a definite answer.

Maybe a better analogy would have been to compare the logic of those who buy expensive forged wheels prior to addressing a stock suspension?



Bingo.

Sorry to hear about your coworker.
I completely agree that the clutch is the weak point. And I agree that you should be prepared to have to replace it with a much better one. My point was that if you aren't driving aggressively it may not be a problem. For me, stage 1 was too much power for the stock clutch. But I was only having a problem at the drag strip. I am now stage 2 and I've had it slip twice while driving aggressively on the street. I've known from the beginning that I'd need a better clutch. But since it's been in the upper 90s here lately I'm not currently tracking the car. And since it's not my daily driver I'm not stressing out the current clutch that much. I've got the money set aside to upgrade the clutch and flywheel and will do so in the next month. I'm just waiting to meet up with someone locally to drive his car to see if I like his setup. I'll be doing this week and then make a decision on what I will purchase.
But this is just my experience. Someone who decided to go stage 2 to give the car some more power and doesn't race (street or otherwise) could very well be fine not spending the 3k.

[Loe]

For a B8 car, in my opinion, not necessary if you plan to stay with the standard stage 2 pulley. Beyond that setup it would be a worthwhile mod.

I'm having pretty good results running an aggressive dual pulley setup on the stock 2010 TCU software. I would love the increased redline, improved shift strategies and revised heat management that come with APR's dsg tune. APR can't seem to get their shit together for whatever reason so I'm left without one for god knows how long.

I've reached out to a few members and looked into what pressures the various dsg tunes clamp at on upshifts in WOT, hard throttle and normal driving. From what I can tell my stock TCU hits the same values as GIAC/APR TCU cars at WOT and part throttle. My stock tcu and APR/GIAC TCU's, hit higher values than EPL's standard dsg file. I understand they released a high torque file shortly after a member ditched them for not being happy with how his TCU behaved.

TCU file is a must have for any b8.5 car...

Makes you wonder where the $$ goes for all tcu programs. Glad we were able to share clamp pressure values!

Edited, didn't bold everything I wanted to.

[cjw]

I'm interested in the info on the actual values.

[snowmuch]

Does the TCU tune gets ride of the fart noise when shifting? If it does TCU is out of the question.

[mrmomo313]

Makes you wonder where the $$ goes for all tcu programs. Glad we were able to share clamp pressure values!

I'm interested in the info on the actual values.

Now it's worth mentioning that APR and presumably GIAC/EPL sample at a much higher rate than VCDS allows for (might be on the order of 5 fold faster sampling IIRC). I'm not saying any of the dsg tunes are bad or not worth the money... Just that with the tools available we aren't seeing much of a difference between my stock TCU clutch pressures and tuned TCU pressures.


What we saw at WOT were pressures of around 13.x-14 bar for APR and my Stock TCU. Under heavy acceleration around 10-12 bar for stock tcu and APR. GIAC, for a 2nd-->3rd upshift at WOT around 11.9-12.x bar (I'd like a little more data from GIAC, particularly more WOT pressures and hard accel values.)

This is from the member who shared the EPL logs, "clutch pressures where in the low 7 bar range after kickdown and WOT and would ramp up to 11-12bar before redline causing the car to feel like it was constantly slipping. I don't see double digit (10+) bar under hard or full throttle anywhere from 1000+rpms after the point when I roll on in manual or kick down activates and that is what i think is the issue. I can feel, and from reviewing my logs when it actually holds (10+ bar) before that point, the sensation is like 75% power feeling or similar to a manual slipping clutch. And the logs show much less pressure on either clutch (2-7 bar as it ramps in)."

All I know is that said member saw this and sold his EPL ecu+tcu, and a few days later I saw mention of a "higher torque" dsg file from EPL... I haven't seen any recent reported issues so I'm guessing all is well now though no one is running dual pulley with their TCU tune right now (andthen is using APR...).

Bottom line, looks like the stock TCU can handle the job of stage 2 just fine. Anything beyond that and you'll want a dsg tune. I don't always have clean 1-2 upshifts, which is why I avoid digs right now. After 1-2 shift, the stock TCU programming handles upshifts extremely well. I have had the TCU stock since 2010 so I know the behaviors of this transmission very well. Since going stage 2, I'd say 90% of my time has been on a race gas map. I've tested two dual pulley ratios now and am throwing a lot of torque/HP at this car. I am really impressed with the transmission's ability to hold this power so well while still operating with the smoothness I have been accustomed to since buying the car.

I plan on hitting the strip with my current setup and again with the trans tuned to see if I pick up anything with just the DSG tune...

Does the TCU tune gets ride of the fart noise when shifting? If it does TCU is out of the question.

You keep the fart. If you get APR tcu, then only when LC is used and you enter AMAX mode does the fart disappear (new shift strategy that does not retard timing on shift but instead a little bypass of boost).

[Loe]

^^ long story short, a TCU isn't a requirement if you have a B8 since they have higher shiftpoints after the initial 1-2 swap. However if you have a B8.5, you really need it to extract the most out of the available rpm range as the HP curve is still rising at the OEM shiftpoints of 6,300-6,400rpm on the GIAC stage 2 file.

[pdqgp]

Not GIAC but I can say I wouldn't own a stock S4 just to save the $2700 it cost me to get the DSG and Stage II power adds. It's a completely different car. I've been tuned since I bought it with 8k on the ODO. Pushing 21k now with no issues.

I went APR only because I had no experience with GIAC and didn't personally know anyone with their tune(s). I have several friends and racing buddies with APR stuff and none had issues or complaints.

[MrFunk]

I swapped out my stocker with 14k on the clock. It seemed to be going okay.

I've never actually had clutch fail on me, or slip excessively. I always swap them out before I wreck them.

For me, it's a PM issue. Clutch can't take the power, replace the clutch first, then add the power. People who do that backwards puzzle me, almost to the point of people who throw big turbos and nitrous at motors even if they know the internals can't take it.

-DL

I've been tuned for 3+ years on my OEM clutch. It's not slipped once. You'd still suggest I should have replaced it 4 years ago? I'm not following the logic.
Sorry to hear about your colleague.

[bhvrdr]

I've been tuned for 3+ years on my OEM clutch. It's not slipped once. You'd still suggest I should have replaced it 4 years ago? I'm not following the logic.
Sorry to hear about your colleague.

If the OEM clutch will hold, I'd never replace an OEM clutch. The driveability and quality control on aftermarket clutches can be very inconsistent. If you do a search on any brand... Spec, Southbend, AWE, Eurocode, etc etc you'll find plenty of happy customers and then also plenty of ones who have failures or driveability issues. If you can run an OEM clutch, do it IMO. If you need an aftermarket clutch and can get away with just the OEM Sachs clutch upgrade, do that next IMO. If you absolutely need a "stage x9&(*%Ejkj dual disc with LW single mass blah blah blah clutch than pick the absolute premier brand, then roll the dice and hope for the best"

[bmoreS4]

If the OEM clutch will hold, I'd never replace an OEM clutch. The driveability and quality control on aftermarket clutches can be very inconsistent. If you do a search on any brand... Spec, Southbend, AWE, Eurocode, etc etc you'll find plenty of happy customers and then also plenty of ones who have failures or driveability issues. If you can run an OEM clutch, do it IMO. If you need an aftermarket clutch and can get away with just the OEM Sachs clutch upgrade, do that next IMO. If you absolutely need a "stage x9&(*%Ejkj dual disc with LW single mass blah blah blah clutch than pick the absolute premier brand, then roll the dice and hope for the best"

This, I run an OEM RS4 clutch in my Stage 3 b5.