B6 1.8T - Oil Consumption Questions

[A4orce84]

Hey B6 Doods,

I've recently decided to change to a 10K OCI due to a few Blackstone Lab oil reports that I've had done recently. My car currently has nearly 180K miles, and up until this point, I've always changed the oil around the 5-6K mile timeframe. So, this is the first time I've tried to make it to the 10k mileage limit. I've put approximately 7K miles since the last time I changed my oil so far (no topping off or extra oil) and I thought everything was cool. Then a few days ago my min oil light went off.... I added a quart this morning to get things back to normal, and the min oil light disappeared as expected. I believe the min oil light occurs when we have roughly ~2.5-3 quarts of oil left (total oil capacity being around 4.25-4.5 quarts). So, somewhere in my 7K miles of driving since my last oil change, I have burned approximately 2 quarts of oil which seems a bit excessive to me.

I never hit this issue previously, with having the min oil light coming on before, since I would generally change oil at the 5-6K mileage timeframe, and never tried to push the car this far. In terms of potential leaks and issues, I've had my PCV system replaced with the 034 kit a few years ago......and as far as I can tell there are no oil leaks currently on my car. I've been searching and reading a bit about oil consumption for the 1.8T, and it seems that a lot of people consider burning some type of oil normal.

However, 2 quarts in 7K miles on a 1.8T engine with nearly 180K miles on it, seems more than normal in my head....but thought I'd ask the collective mind if there is an issue or not. Any assistance, feedback, thoughts, etc. anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated. TIA.

Photo of the patient for your trouble:


Thanks,
Asif

[jonan]

super clean car man!

i typically check my oil every time i fill up...currently, my car doesn't burn a single drop and i have ~155k on the clock...

when was the last time you changed the oil cooler? i thought my car burned oil before but after i changed the oil cooler i never have to top off anymore...

[tHatOne guY]

Nice looking ride.

What brand and weight oil do you use typically? From the sounds of it Blackstone said to go ahead and try for the 10k OCI?

We both probably have read the same posts concerning oil consumption and whats normal vs whats not and what some experience etc.

Don't recall the specs as far as whats normal but I had a B5 AWM that went through about 1.5 quarts every 4-5k and my current daily B6 AMB that has not used any oil yet, knock on wood... I run Redline 0w40/5w40 and will go about 8-12k mile OCI.

Have you ever done any compression test or cylinder leak down tests? Not saying that's needed but maybe it would give some insight as far as what's going on internally. Needless to say those tests won't tell you the condition of your turbo seals, exhaust guides/seals, PCV system.

Also depending on how hard you are in the loud pedal really will have an affect on how much oil is consumed.

[jonan]

BTW, i'm not sure what effect the vacuum system has on oil consumption, but i basically did everything that a4darkness did in his thread...all vacuum lines replaced with silicone, 034 hoses, kynar checkvalves, brand new PVC valves, the works...the only hose i have left that is original is the coolant hose for the turbo that attaches to the front of the timing belt cover...every other coolant and vacuum line has been replaced by me over the past two to three years...

[A4orce84]

when was the last time you changed the oil cooler? i thought my car burned oil before but after i changed the oil cooler i never have to top off anymore...

Oil cooler has never been changed. Are there any symptoms to know when it is on it's last legs?

What brand and weight oil do you use typically? From the sounds of it Blackstone said to go ahead and try for the 10k OCI?
Redline 0w40/5w40 and will go about 8-12k mile OCI.

Have you ever done any compression test or cylinder leak down tests? Not saying that's needed but maybe it would give some insight as far as what's going on internally. Needless to say those tests won't tell you the condition of your turbo seals, exhaust guides/seals, PVC system.

Yes, Blackstone Labs gave their 'blessings' for starting the 10K OCI. =)

I use Shell Rotella T6 5W-40, have been using it for the past 4-5 years. No compression tests or leak down tests on any of the cylinders performed.

[jonan]

Oil cooler has never been changed. Are there any symptoms to know when it is on it's last legs?

not really, i just changed it because i had to change the coolant hoses that connected to it and i figured since i was already in there and i had ~114k miles on it, it was a good preventative maintenance move...

when i took it off the o-ring was deformed, enlarged and broke in half...

[old guy]

I prefer maintaining a 5K OCI for the 1.8T regardless of what the Blackstone reports suggest. Turbo heat takes its toll on the oil no matter what kind of oil you use. Yes you can save a few $$ by extending the interval but I simply regard it as cheap insurance. I never add oil and I am approaching 225K miles, all except 1,200 miles has been either chipped, big injector or F21L. I have no problem at all with a 10K+ OCI on a normally aspirated engine. My CC VR6 just hit 250K and doesn't burn any oil.

Unfortunately the propensity to burn oil is greatly affected by how the engine was initially broken in. If not done properly the rings never seat out properly and later in life the consumption increases.

If you have been going with a 5k OCI and not having to add oil then I would suggest you go back to the 5K OCI. The 1.8T is pretty short on oil capacity to begin with and running it down to where you have to add oil only adds to the dirt load concentration and reduces the cooling capacity of the oil. All of which tends to accelerate engine wear.

5K synthetic changes = cheap insurance.

[jonan]

I prefer maintaining a 5K OCI for the 1.8T regardless of what the Blackstone reports suggest. Turbo heat takes its toll on the oil no matter what kind of oil you use. Yes you can save a few $$ by extending the interval but I simply regard it as cheap insurance. I never add oil and I am approaching 225K miles, all except 1,200 miles has been either chipped, big injector or F21L. I have no problem at all with a 10K+ OCI on a normally aspirated engine. My CC VR6 just hit 250K and doesn't burn any oil.

Unfortunately the propensity to burn oil is greatly affected by how the engine was initially broken in. If not done properly the rings never seat out properly and later in life the consumption increases.

If you have been going with a 5k OCI and not having to add oil then I would suggest you go back to the 5K OCI. The 1.8T is pretty short on oil capacity to begin with and running it down to where you have to add oil only adds to the dirt load concentration and reduces the cooling capacity of the oil. All of which tends to accelerate engine wear.

5K synthetic changes = cheap insurance.

i agree!!!

[A4orce84]

Hey Fletcher,

While I agree with what you said, I guess I don't want to take away from the main focus of the topic of this thread: oil consumption.

While yes, going back to a 5K OCI would 'solve' the problem, in my opinion, it would also be potentially ignoring that there may be a deeper issue with the amount of oil that is being burned with my car. It may be in the near future where I can't even make it between 5K between oil changes, and my min oil light would be going off more often. There are several B6ers who do follow the 10K OCI, and hardly burn / lose any oil. While I understand that it may be related to my rings not seated correctly during break-in procedure, are there any other causes that could explain the behavior?

Basically:
1. Is burning 2 quarts at ANY mileage "normal" and within factory specification?
2. I know for 2.0T motors, Audi (for better or worse) says 1 quart / 1000 miles is normal. I'm assuming this is to cover their butts with the carbon issues, but is there any kind of rule for our 1.8T motors?

3. If not "normal" what could be potential root-cause (rings, oil leaks, etc.)?
4. Anyone who IS doing 10k OCI (with large oil filter + synthetic) what are your results / behavior?


Thanks guys for all the feedback and help so far, I really appreciate it! =)

[old guy]

Burning 2 quarts in 7,000 miles would be considered "normal" by Audi. I would consider it a bit on the high side (1 quart per 3,500 miles) but nothing catastrophic. I think you already know all the possibilities for high oil useage.

Faulty block breathing system.
External leaks.
Turbo seals.
Valve stem seals.
Worn rings.
Faulty oil cooler.

[jacobsen]

I do mahle oc 105/Mann 950/4 filter with motul 5w40 or 0w40. The other oil I really like is delvac 5w40. I do about 8-10k changes. But OG has the right idea, no reason to take risks. Myself, I suspect turbos, rings and valve stem seals in these cases of no external leak. How many miles the turbo and what kind is it? I have a hundred and forty five thousand miles on mine and I basically have no consumption or very very little to notice between oci.

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[A4orce84]

How many miles the turbo and what kind is it? I have a hundred and forty five thousand miles on mine and I basically have no consumption or very very little to notice between oci.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Car has nearly 180K miles on it currently. I am on the original OEM K03s turbo that has been APR Stage 1+ for most it's life.

Thanks,
Asif

[Furly]

Your car is going to explode because you're cheap and want to stretch oil change intervals to save pennies.

[jacobsen]

With 180k on your turbo I'm very surprised you're still rolling on it. I bet your turbo seals are leaking with that mileage and tune. My oem blew at about 100k with a tune. I'm on apr 2 k04 with full supporting bolt ons. No leaks or discernable consumption. Check for smoke in your exhaust. Clean your exhaust tips and see how quick they turn black.

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[A4orce84]

Your car is going to explode because you're cheap and want to stretch oil change intervals to save pennies.

I think you are joking, but also just to be clear let me reiterate:

I have done my due diligence and gotten my oil tested multiple times by Blackstone Labs. I did not just wake up one day and say: "I'm just going to start doing 10K OCIs."

Trying to make sure I do my homework so my car does NOT blowup, I like my car. :)

[Furly]

I think you are joking, but also just to be clear let me reiterate:

I have done my due diligence and gotten my oil tested multiple times by Blackstone Labs. I did not just wake up one day and say: "I'm just going to start doing 10K OCIs."

Trying to make sure I do my homework so my car does NOT blowup, I like my car. :)

I was jk of course.
Also dont listen to blackstone. Turbo cars are not the same as NA when it comes to OCI like OG mentioned. He nailed it

[hightime80]

Your car is going to explode because you're cheap and want to stretch oil change intervals to save pennies.

So brutal yet so true. Maybe he'll sell me his nice usp body part when its time for a part out👍👍👍

[BumblebVR6]

Stock turbo w/ 155k miles here. Mine uses around a quart every 5k miles or so. I used some LubroMoly oil saver on the last oil change and it seemed to help a bit. Using PurOil 10w-40 and changing every 5k. Hoping to do a Frankenturbo F21L kit with similar setup to old guy after continuing to see his luck w/ it.

[jonan]

not sure if it has actually made a difference, but i do add about 1/4 cup of autoRX into my oil every time i change it...

i honestly think that the stuff saved my power steering pump too...

[seanf86]

consumption can be masked by short trips as well, the fuel/moisture dilution goes up but after a long burn on the highway can show your oil level way down, what kind of driving do you normally do? Being summer and you being in Texas the heat can take its toll on oil thats older and has sheared down as well.

[A4orce84]

consumption can be masked by short trips as well, the fuel/moisture dilution goes up but after a long burn on the highway can show your oil level way down, what kind of driving do you normally do? Being summer and you being in Texas the heat can take its toll on oil thats older and has sheared down as well.

It is interesting you mention the long burn (long-drive) in your previous reply. When the min oil light came on, it was actually the day after I did a short road-trip with the car. An 800 mile journey (400 miles each way) to get to my parent's house, and then back to Texas over the course of a weekend. I did it nearly in one shot, and only took one break in the middle to walk around a bit. So, there was definitely 2 long 'burn' highway drives that occurred right before the min oil light came on.

To answer your other question, I usually drive about 30 miles daily (10-15 miles each way) to work and back home. Probably mix in some other short drives around town and what not, but the car is my daily driver....so a good mix of short drives + standard commutes + highway road trips (2-3 times a year).

[MacFady]

OP, your min light came on, you added a quart, but you never actually said where on the dipstick your oil was at, did you check? Was it indeed actually low? I just ask this because in my E46 BMW there was a place I used to park for work sometimes that would cause my low oil light to come one when I went to leave work and the oil level was always fine, only ever came on when I parked in this specific place. My 1.8T has been just stage 1 since basically new and now has 250K km's on it, stock turbo, I never need to top up. When I check before my oil changes the level is always where it was when I did my last change. I consider myself lucky to say that, hopefully I'm not jinxing myself.

[A4orce84]

OP, your min light came on, you added a quart, but you never actually said where on the dipstick your oil was at, did you check? Was it indeed actually low?

I actually didn't check (should have!) before tossing the quart in there. Was more concerned about just getting oil in the engine since I was around town driving. I will keep an eye on it moving forward, and see if it gets back to the lower-end of the dipstick as time goes on.

Thanks everyone for all the feedback and information so far!

[fallingreason]

I thought the oil light was 1quart or so. At least that is what brought my B6 1.8T back to just about full. I changed my oil every 5-7k and sometimes my light would go on, sometimes it wouldn't. Maybe depended on my driving.

[eljay]

I thought the oil light was 1quart or so. At least that is what brought my B6 1.8T back to just about full. I changed my oil every 5-7k and sometimes my light would go on, sometimes it wouldn't. Maybe depended on my driving.

Yes, I am puzzled as well that OP added 2 quarts. I saw the low oil light once and all I've added was one liter to get back to the proper level on the dipstick. Interestingly, it happened 1,300 miles after I fixed my CCT gasket leak and saw no more drops of oil anywhere and did an oil change with Rotella T6.

[URS4surf]

Nice rig you have there, I have her evil twin except for the wheels and not USP :)

I'm at 173k and stg 3 and add nothing in between OCI's.

wts, I am probably down some oil as all motors use some, but never enough to set off the sensor.

OCI is usually 5k but sometimes it might get to 6k because of weather or something comes up...

I would be Leary going that long just because of the heat in your area, regardless of what the tests say for the sake of $35...and an hour of your time

Steve

[BARRY]

i'd inspect your entire engine for oil leaks of any kind.

additionally with extended oil change intervals you are essentially allow the engine an easier chance to burn oil. this generally occurs when the oil's viscosity breaks down and becomes thinner. when you run a multigrade viscosity oil, especially ones with a larger spread like 0-40w you will end up with an oil that can and will lose its viscosity quicker.

the 1.8t engine is very HARD on its oil. Shell Rotella T6 is a pretty durable oil. I'd check for oil leaks, as well as leaks in your pcv system. My first Audi, had one hose broken which did link up to the valve cover at some point kick out lots of oil which over time would cause the low oil light to appear. on top of that i'd then proceed to inspect spark plugs for any signs of oil burnoff. all 1.8t engines stock or tuned should show a clean burn up until change interval for spark plugs. if they are not clean, you defiantly have excessive oil coming into your combustion chambers. could be valve stem seals, pcv system, or rings. pcv system shouldn't allow for excessive oil into your system unless your rings have lost their sealing ability. this can be identified through a cylinder leak down test, dry then with oil. leaking valve stem seal can also at times be identified in this fashion.

[mdh]

That's nothing... before I replaced my turbo I was burning thru 4-5 quarts between oil changes. haha

The k03 isn't the best made turbo in the world... I'd start there.

[BARRY]

yeah my first B6's turbo by the time car had 220k on an APR 2+, the turbo shaft was all wobbly...that probably aided to my slow loss of oil as well. i do know randomly maybe once every few months i'd have a smoky exhaust, but it would go away.

[mdh]

Mine at idle would puke smoke hahaha alls good now though.

[diagnosticator]

Every engine must use some oil. This is just a fact of how engines are assembled and operate. If no oil was consumed, the piston rings and cylinder walls would not get any lubrication and other parts like the valve guides would not have any lube either. Also, a small amount of oil is lost to the crankcase ventilation system normally, as oily aerosols are vented with the blow-by gasses and condense in the cooler parts of the ventilation plumbing, with a smaller fraction of oil aerosols being inducted into the intake and burned. Even with the tightest assembly, some oil must be consumed. It is not possible to run an engine where zero oil is consumed during operation. The amount of oil consumed depends on many variable factors including oil viscosity, oil temperature, engine RPM, existing wear on parts, environmental conditions, engine load and driving style and other factors. Every engine will use a different amount of oil under the same conditions, due to individual variations of the dependent factors.
Establishing what amount of oil consumption is normal is an arbitrarily estimated maximum volume based on engine type and design, there is no way to say exactly how much oil consumption is normal except as a typical maximum value experienced with other similar engines under similar operation conditions. The main measure of excess oil consumption is if the engine is burning enough oil to cause a smoky exhaust.

[eljay]

Every engine must use some oil. This is just a fact of how engines are assembled and operate. If no oil was consumed, the piston rings and cylinder walls would not get any lubrication and other parts like the valve guides would not have any lube either. Also, a small amount of oil is lost to the crankcase ventilation system normally, as oily aerosols are vented with the blow-by gasses and condense in the cooler parts of the ventilation plumbing, with a smaller fraction of oil aerosols being inducted into the intake and burned. Even with the tightest assembly, some oil must be consumed. It is not possible to run an engine where zero oil is consumed during operation. The amount of oil consumed depends on many variable factors including oil viscosity, oil temperature, engine RPM, existing wear on parts, environmental conditions, engine load and driving style and other factors. Every engine will use a different amount of oil under the same conditions, due to individual variations of the dependent factors.
Establishing what amount of oil consumption is normal is an arbitrarily estimated maximum volume based on engine type and design, there is no way to say exactly how much oil consumption is normal except as a typical maximum value experienced with other similar engines under similar operation conditions. The main measure of excess oil consumption is if the engine is burning enough oil to cause a smoky exhaust.

This makes a lot of sense.

[diagnosticator]

This makes a lot of sense.

Very large industrial stationary reciprocating engines, and marine propulsion engines diesel and gas fueled, are tested by the manufacturer on a test setup and the lube oil consumption is specified as a percentage of the specific fuel consumption that varies with engine load and speed, but is rated at full load at rated RPM.