Stock Pistons Ugraded Rods Shortblock

[Kaane]

Any shops sell 2.7T shortblocks with stock pistons and just upgraded rods?

[Timtheguru]

No? You'll need to source the parts yourself.

[aysix]

Yes IE does that.

[Timtheguru]

Didn't see any 2.7t short blocks on IEs site.

[LightningLou]

Didn't see any 2.7t short blocks on IEs site.

Did you call them and ask?

Most people just do it all themselves with this platform. It's a little time consuming, but much cheaper if you have the time and know how.

[Timtheguru]

Did you call them and ask?

Most people just do it all themselves with this platform. It's a little time consuming, but much cheaper if you have the time and know how.

Why would I call them? Should I call all of the shops in the US to find out if they have shortblocks with only upgraded rods for some random forum question that wasn't asked by me?

[LightningLou]

Why would I call them? Should I call all of the shops in the US to find out if they have shortblocks with only upgraded rods for some random forum question that wasn't asked by me?

I thought you were the OP dude, my bad... I've never heard of IE building shortblocks either, but I'm sure they'll have an answer over the phone if it isn't listed on their site. If there's enough demand for it I'm sure they'd list it on their site, but there likely isn't for various reasons.

[Timtheguru]

No worries. :) I only ask questions you could easily have googled an answer for me.

[S4James]

VAG offerered me a complete assembled longblock with upgraded rods


for 5000$



i assume it was made out of gold.

[julex]

Do it yourself or pay through the nose....

http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/engines/v6-5v.htm

[S4James]

lol... im just getting a local machine shop to measure and refresh where needed. Its not rocket science, i dont know why people charge a fortune

[Kaane]

Yes IE does that.

I emailed them, they said they don't offer any 2.7T shortblocks at all, just parts.

[aysix]

I emailed them, they said they don't offer any 2.7T shortblocks at all, just parts.

I must have mistaken them for eurospec

[HighPsi(NorCal)]

Plenty of resources to do it by yourself, otherwise expect to pay out the ass. I got my BEL block for $400, disassembled, flex honed, added bearings (main/rod) and new rings. Total to this point is about $1200, which I would expect to pay 3x that at a machine shop or knowledgeable garage if I wasn't doing it myself.

[joeSfour]

Do it yourself or pay through the nose....

http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/engines/v6-5v.htm

Please do not go this route....I've only had bad experiences myself, and have not heard of many successful scenarios.

[Kaane]

I will probably do it myself, was just wondering if there are any vendors offering such a combination.

I still want the machine shop to at least clean the block and hone it. I can get new rings and bearings and the rods.

I was checking elsa for motor specs and it only shows a range. What piston ring gap should I be shooting for? Bearing clearance? Plastigauge good enough or should I invest in a bore gauge?

[LightningLou]

I will probably do it myself, was just wondering if there are any vendors offering such a combination.

I still want the machine shop to at least clean the block and hone it. I can get new rings and bearings and the rods.

I was checking elsa for motor specs and it only shows a range. What piston ring gap should I be shooting for? Bearing clearance? Plastigauge good enough or should I invest in a bore gauge?

Whatever you do, just make sure you find a good machine shop that can balance your crankshaft with new rods. I swear my engine has much less vibration than it did stock after installing rpm i-beams and getting crankshaft re-balanced to new rotating weight. Well worth the $150 or so for the peace of mind that your new engine will run like a top. ;)

[HighPsi(NorCal)]

I will probably do it myself, was just wondering if there are any vendors offering such a combination.

I still want the machine shop to at least clean the block and hone it. I can get new rings and bearings and the rods.

I was checking elsa for motor specs and it only shows a range. What piston ring gap should I be shooting for? Bearing clearance? Plastigauge good enough or should I invest in a bore gauge?

You will need a bore gauge (if you get a snap bore gauge you will also need an outside micrometer) and plastigage. I have recorded all specifications as I go along building my motor. I personally did my rings as follows - 1st Ring .45mm 2nd Ring .60mm 3rd Ring .48mm , I have a build thread on AR under the B5 section, which I copy and pasted from there so some of the illustrations that I made aren't lining up here very well. Hope it helps.


Axial Clearance -> When New Wear Limit
.090-.251 mm .28 mm

*Do not interchange used bearings
-Attach dial gauge with universal dial gauge bracket VW 387 to oil pump and bring it into contact with crank web.
-Press crankshaft against dial gauge by hand and set gauge to -0-.
-Press crankshaft away from dial gauge.

Radial Clearance -> When New Wear Limit
.018-.045 mm .10 mm

*Measure radial clearance with Plastigage


Crank Shaft Bearing Caps

-Bearing #1 is Toothed Belt End (oil pump)

Tightening Sequence (Arp Main Stud Kit and Factory Stretch Bolts)

-| |- Toothed Belt End

A | 14 6 5 13 | A
| 10 2 1 7 |
| 12 4 3 11 |
A | 16 8 7 15 | A
Flywheel End

Stage 1 -> 30 nm
Stage 2 -> 60 nm
Stage 3 -> *Arp = 100 ft/lb or Stock bolts = 90 degrees further (30 nm, 60 nm then 90 degrees)

A= 25 nm


Cylinder Bore - use a Snap Bore Gauge and Outside Micrometer or a Cylinder Bore Gauge
_________________
| | Measure for cylinder roundness @ 3 points (1,2,3)
(1) | | (1) 10 mm down from top of cylinder
| | (2) ~in the middle of 1 & 3
| | (3) 10 mm up from bottom of cylinder
(2) | |
| | Honing Dimensions:
| | Cylinder Bore Diameter 81.01 mm (nominal)
(3) | | Service limit = Nominal - Actual must be less than .08 mm



Piston Diameter and Ring Measurement

Measure 10 mm from skirt bottom, 90 degrees to piston pin axis.

Piston Diameter = 80.95 mm (nominal)

Nominal - Actual must be less than .04 mm

Piston - Ring to Grove Clearance

when new wear limit
.02 - .08 mm .10 mm


Piston Ring Gap

*Push ring in squarely to a position approx. 15 mm from bottom end of cylinder

when new wear limit

Ring 1 .35 - .50 mm 1.0 mm
Ring 2 .50 - .70 mm 1.4 mm
Ring 3 .25 - .50 mm .8 mm

I used Weisco Piston Ring installation instructions for Ring placement and Ring Gap theory. If you cannot locate it on the web, pm me and I will email a PDF version.

Connecting Rods

*Only replace complete sets of connecting rods
*Do Not interchange connecting rod bearings

Radial Clearance:

- If reusing bearings, mark with a felt pen first. (personally, I recommend new bearings, especially if flex honing)
- Remove connecting rod bearing cap. Clean bearing cap and bearing journal.
- Place a length of Plastigage corresponding to width of bearing on bearing journal or bearing shell.
- Install connecting rod bearing cap and tighten to 20 nm (use old bolts). Do not rotate crankshaft.
- Remove connecting rod bearing cap again.
- Compare width of Plastigage with calibrated scale.

Clearance when new Wear Limit
.015 - .062 mm .12 mm

Installation and Torque (arp)

*Bearing Tangs face exhaust side of motor (per IE directions)
-With new connecting rods bolts, install and tighten hand tight.

Tightening Torque:
Stage 1 = 30 nm
Stage 2 = 30 ft/lb

Upper Oil Pan

-There is no gasket between the block and upper section of pan. Only use silicone sealant D 454 300 A2 or equivalent (I used Victor Reinz - Reinzosil). Thickness of sealant bead should not exceed 2-3 mm, any larger puts a risk of sealant getting into oil strainer/lines.
-Tighten all securing bolts to 5 nm initially, then
-Tighten bolts securing oil pan to cylinder block in diagonal sequence to 10 nm
-Tighten M10 bolts securing oil pan to cylinder block to 45 nm


Front Sealing Flange (Install this prior to the Oil Pump and supply lines)

-Attach chain to Oil Pump Drive gear on crankshaft.
-Apply Sealant to oil pan, but DO NOT put sealant on sealing surface of the cylinder block.
-After installing gasket on sealing surface of the cylinder block, apply a small amount of sealant to the joints between oil pan and front sealing flange.
-Tighten Torque: M6 = 10 nm, M8 = 20 nm,(4) bolts in oil pan = 10 nm
*I put a new crankshaft oil seal before installing Front Sealing Flange

Oil Pump and Oil Pump Drive Chain

-Before bolting down Oil Pump, install short oil line into pump and upper section of oil pan with new O-Rings
-Tighten (3) Hex bolts to 25 nm to secure Oil Pump in place.
-Push longer Oil Supply line into Front Sealing Flange with new O-ring
-Attach chain to Oil Pump Sprocket and fit on Oil Pump shaft (there is a specific orientation)
-Tighten T45 bolt to 25 nm

Lower Oil Pan

-Install new gasket on lower section of oil pan and install on upper section of oil pan with two diagonally opposite bolts (I have conflicting info here, most say a sealant gasket while Elsa says to not use any adhesive or sealant, I elected to purchase the gasket for the 2.8l 30(v).
-Tighten all securing bolts hand-tight.
-Tighten bolts to 10 nm, working from center outward.


Crankcase Breather Housing (Valley Pan Gasket)
-Always replace Gasket
-Tighten to 10nm

[slowSfaux]

Great info HighPSI

[landfill]

If you want to spend $5k call eurospec!
If you want to spend $1k + your time
do it yourself. Or just pull the motor your
self and find a competent machine shop
to build your motor. For just a hone, checking
bearing clearances, and reassembly should
run you under $1k for labor.

[landfill]

For engine internal specs all-data
provides all of them as does the bentley
manual.

[landfill]

Also for those doing a big build
a flex hone is garbage. The way
to get a good hone is on the machine.
No way around that.

[HighPsi(NorCal)]

A flex hone should only be used to break the glaze and create cross hatching on the cylinder wall(s) before installing new rings, that is its intended purpose and works perfectly fine for that.

[Wagonholic]

If you're just planning to do rods, you can just do rods (and new rod bearings/gaskets). Rod bearings are only $60 for the set.

You can reuse your piston rings if they are in good condition. They are made by Mahle and are of very good quality. So are the pistons. By reusing rings you can avoid getting a hone and not touch the cylinder walls at all. You can verify them, but these engines are very robust and should be in good condition inside. Just make sure to mark each piston/ring and which respective cylinder each one of them goes to. You can clean the pistons using the scotchbrite purple pads and some brake cleaner.

IE is a great choice, although the RPM rods have been used with much success and cost around $400-500. I bought my H-beams brand new for $375 shipped. They come with ARP 2000 bolts as well.

I avoided touching my crankshaft after seeing how it was in great shape (no play or wear) and how I've heard many people run into problems after messing with the crank. I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but in my case, I decided to keep things as simple as possible for the build.

So far, my build (engine wise) has only cost me rods, rod bearings, and gaskets. You can view my build thread--it is linked in my signature. So far, I have completed the assembly of my bottom end.

[S4James]

Great guide. Totally going to use this.

[julex]

Stuff

I did exactly this as well. I haven't touched crank after measuring run out and play. Only took out pistons, swapped a few questionable rings, new rod bearings and done.

However, if you notice that you have old APB block in your engine, it might be a good idea to get BEL block and start fresh.

[Ephry73]

I did exactly this as well. I haven't touched crank after measuring run out and play. Only took out pistons, swapped a few questionable rings, new rod bearings and done.

However, if you notice that you have old APB block in your engine, it might be a good idea to get BEL block and start fresh.

I thought the APB blocks were good just not as beefy as the BEL units.


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[Wagonholic]

I did exactly this as well. I haven't touched crank after measuring run out and play. Only took out pistons, swapped a few questionable rings, new rod bearings and done.

However, if you notice that you have old APB block in your engine, it might be a good idea to get BEL block and start fresh.

I have a later APB/BF block. I should be okay. Lol.

I had one questionable ring that I decided to replace. I didn't hone, since it was only one ring, and these cars have an IRON block and moly rings. It all spec'd out nicely.

At 137,XXX miles, my internals were flawless, and the factory hone/cross-hatching was still existing.






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[Bordom]

Might wanna re-check your wording. These blocks are Iron, not Aluminum

Everything graciously mispelled by Android

[Wagonholic]

Might wanna re-check your wording. These blocks are Iron, not Aluminum

Everything graciously mispelled by Android

Yes, my bad. Thanks for catching that lol. I meant iron; got confused with the heads, which aluminum.

Anyway, my point was a hone is not completely necessary if you are just replacing a single ring here and there. The new ring will also wear to the cylinder wall and create a seal.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Yes, my bad. Thanks for catching that lol. I meant iron; got confused with the heads, which aluminum.

Anyway, my point was a hone is not completely necessary if you are just replacing a single ring here and there. The new ring will also wear to the cylinder wall and create a seal.

A hone no, but a deglazing of the walls should be done so it has something to bite into

[HighPsi(NorCal)]

Yes, my bad. Thanks for catching that lol. I meant iron; got confused with the heads, which aluminum.

Anyway, my point was a hone is not completely necessary if you are just replacing a single ring here and there. The new ring will also wear to the cylinder wall and create a seal.

As VR said, a deglaze is 100% necessary, especially if you are putting new rings in (I personally don't see the point of pulling pistons to reuse old rings when it is like an hour extra and maybe $80 additional, but I also don't see the point of pulling the motor and not doing crank bearings/arp stud kit).

[rdcyclist]

As VR said, a deglaze is 100% necessary, especially if you are putting new rings in (I personally don't see the point of pulling pistons to reuse old rings when it is like an hour extra and maybe $80 additional, but I also don't see the point of pulling the motor and not doing crank bearings/arp stud kit).

Exactly. Why spend eleventy-million bucks on your build and not do a complete bottom end freshen-up. Especially if you're doing rods. Cost another 400 clam at the most and you've got a block ready for anything up to 600hp and another 100k plus.

[landfill]

^^^This!