Post clutch/flywheel install starter grinding noise

[S4FTW]

Help Please! I installed new clutch and flywheel as part of my stage 3 build. TTV B7 Flywheel for B5 S4 and Rock Auto B7 RS4 clutch kit. Finally got everything put together and went to prime the turbos but the starter is making loud grinding noise. Attached is the video. Starter was working fine prior to the engine pull.

Please help me diagnose this issue.

Link to video: https://youtu.be/XNDXEtRpBcY

[y3ti]

Is the engine turning over?

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[S4FTW]

Yes, the engine is turning. I can see the viscous fan moving in the video.

Update: I just tried to turn the engine by turning the crank pulley but couldn't. I was able turn the engine fine after the clutch flywheel install with the transmission mated. There was no resistance or grinding.

[y3ti]

Ah, my fault. I didnt watch the video, just listened to the audio.

It sounds pretty nasty. Im thinking something is up with the starter because you say it turned over by hand before you tried starting it.

I would pull it off and see what the starter teeth and flywheel look like.



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[S4FTW]

Finally got time to pull the engine and separated the transmission to find out what I did wrong. I did a thorough inspection and could not find any sign of damage.. phew! Could not find any sign of grinding either (no meta shaving or scratches to any parts).

When I installed the transmission to the engine last time, there was resistance when the bell housing is within about 1" from the engine. I thought it was normal so I used the bell housing bolts help guide the transmission the last inch or so and pull the two together. I now know I wasn't suppose to do that.

Anyway, I measured the distance from the back of the pilot bearing and the front from the clutch spline on my old and new setup and the new setup is 5mm shorter. Could this be the problem? Please see picture below. I used the pilot bearing provide from the Luk B7 RS4 kit. It has the same part number as the stock B5. I also used OEM flywheel and pressure plate bolts.

Old clutch/flywheel (B5 RS4 clutch kit with AWE LWFW)


New clutch/flywheel (B7 RS4 clutch kit with TTV FW):

[zillarob]

The clutch hub is a lil different on the b7. Pilot is prob in the same place as b5.

[S4FTW]

I thought the clutch disk is the same on the B5 and B7. The difference is the pressure plate??

I could not find anything wrong so I tried to install the transmission back to the engine again. This time I managed to get it to slide in flush with the motor without resistance at the last 1" or so. I'm not sure if this did the trick or not. I cranked the engine many times and even put the transmission in gear (engine and transmission is still sitting outside of the car). The front axles and rear drive shaft input were spinning as I cranked the engine. The engine turned without much force.

I was able to manually crank the engine after installing the transmission last time as well...but I didn't crank it as many revolution as this time around. It wasn't until I put everything back to the car and tried to crank it with the starter that the engine "seized" up.

What else can I do to test while the engine/transmission is out of the car to ensure i won't have to pull it again? Thanks for your inputs.

[JVD]

Is the transmission spacer in?

Just guessing on your "had resistance when it got 1" from the engine."

[S4FTW]

Yes, the bellhousing spacer was in before as well.

[zillarob]

The disks are very slightly different. Where you were measuring from on the hub is one of them.

The b5 also has some bumps around the rivets for reinforcement or something that the b7 does not have.
When using a disk built on a b5 oem center with a b7 pp, these bumps need to be ground down like the b7 or clutch wont fully disengage.

I hope it goes better this time and it was just the starter hung up or something. Not being able to turn the motor by hand is scary isht.

[rollerton]

If the engine and trans are out of the car then bolt the starter on and remove the spark plugs. See if you can turn the engine by hand.
If it's stuck then ..you might not like this but no damage will come from it: grab a pair of jumper cables, connect 12V+ from the battery to the battery connection on the starter. Ground the battery to starter with the other cable.
Use a screwdriver w/ insulated handle to bridge the small push-on connection on the starter to the 12V batt . The starter WILL crank. And there might be a spark or two, it draws some AMPs.
If it cranks then you're good?
If it doesn't I might try loosening the starter incrementally until it frees up, maybe that flywheel wasn't spec'd right?

Anyway, that's how I'd go at it I think.

[Vxlgsi]

Hi i'm from TTV I have been asked to lend a hand on this post by another member. I'm not sure what advice I can offer as you guys have way more knowledge about these cars than me.

Its interesting that you said you could turn the engine over just fine when it was out of the car with the gearbox fitted, but it doesn't turn over when installed?

The only time I have seen this was when I fitted a new engine to a car and forgot to install the engine ground cable.

Not being able to turn the engine by hand though is concerning. May I also ask what is involved with a stage 3 engine upgrade?

[S4FTW]

The disks are very slightly different. Where you were measuring from on the hub is one of them.

The b5 also has some bumps around the rivets for reinforcement or something that the b7 does not have.
When using a disk built on a b5 oem center with a b7 pp, these bumps need to be ground down like the b7 or clutch wont fully disengage.

I hope it goes better this time and it was just the starter hung up or something. Not being able to turn the motor by hand is scary isht.

Thanks. I did some google image searching and noticed that the part number printed on the clutch disk is different on the B5 and B7 disks. I should have compared the two disks side by side before I installed it.

If the engine and trans are out of the car then bolt the starter on and remove the spark plugs. See if you can turn the engine by hand.
If it's stuck then ..you might not like this but no damage will come from it: grab a pair of jumper cables, connect 12V+ from the battery to the battery connection on the starter. Ground the battery to starter with the other cable.
Use a screwdriver w/ insulated handle to bridge the small push-on connection on the starter to the 12V batt . The starter WILL crank. And there might be a spark or two, it draws some AMPs.
If it cranks then you're good?
If it doesn't I might try loosening the starter incrementally until it frees up, maybe that flywheel wasn't spec'd right?

Anyway, that's how I'd go at it I think.

Thanks for the advice. I was thinking about doing this as well. The starter is already installed and I can turn the engine by hand without any problem. I'm just not too confident about doing this because I might mess up something? Do I need to fill the motor up with oil?

Hi i'm from TTV I have been asked to lend a hand on this post by another member. I'm not sure what advice I can offer as you guys have way more knowledge about these cars than me.

Its interesting that you said you could turn the engine over just fine when it was out of the car with the gearbox fitted, but it doesn't turn over when installed?

The only time I have seen this was when I fitted a new engine to a car and forgot to install the engine ground cable.

Not being able to turn the engine by hand though is concerning. May I also ask what is involved with a stage 3 engine upgrade?

Thanks for lending a hand. Yes, I was able to turn the engine with the gearbox while it was outside the car the first time. It wasn't until I put everything back and tried to prime the turbos that I heard the weird grinding noise. The motor would turn with the starter but I couldn't turn it by hand.

Will forgetting a ground cable cause this issue? I would think that not having ground will cause the starter to not crank at all and won't engage the flywheel. For what it worth, when I separated the transmission this time around, I tried to spin the starter gear by hand and was able to turn it with one finger. I turned it counter clockwise.

The stage 3 build is all bolt on stuff. The motor was not taken apart for any internal work. I did change valve cover and cam tensioner gaskets.

[zillarob]

You can turn it over by hand without oil, but I would recommend not cranking it with the starter. Put oil in it.

You should be able to turn the motor by hand. It will have some hard spots on comp strokes, but you should be able to turn it.
Ground will not cause what you have.

What turbos? k04 frame should be fine, but the larger ones, or ones that arent clocked right can interfere with the starter sitting in there correctly.
What fw bolts?

[S4FTW]

Turbos are FrankenTurbo F21BT. I spent a great deal of time clocking them and adjust the waste gate to make sure both open at the same psi. Pretty sure they are clocked correctly and don't interfere with the starter housing.

I used OEM FW and pressure plate bolts from ECS Tuning.

[rollerton]

Thanks for the advice. I was thinking about doing this as well. The starter is already installed and I can turn the engine by hand without any problem. I'm just not too confident about doing this because I might mess up something? Do I need to fill the motor up with oil

I just don't see how you can diagnose it unless you attempt to duplicate the problem. And it seems like the problem is with the starter - ring gear interface. Turning it by hand is great, eliminates a bunch of stuff, but you still have no idea whether the starter will turn the engine.
I'd put some oil in it unless you have a reason not to.
But if the engine has EVER been run with oil in it and had pressure then you won't do any damage spinning it via the starter with no oil. The friction at any point inside will be negligible.

[themadscientist]

Never, EVER use the bolts to pull the engine and trans together. The starter has thin dowels that line it up right where it needs to be. If you're missing those it could affect starter pinion gear alignment with the ring gear on the flywheel, creating noise and binding.

Make sure the disc will slide onto the input shaft. Sometimes they can get little burs around the ends of the teeth where it first meets the input shaft, making it really difficult to line up and slide on. Sometimes I use a needle file to add a slight bevel and make life easier.

[S4FTW]

Thanks all for your inputs. I finally got time to work on the car this past weekend and figured out the issue. One of the spline got pushed toward the transmission to the starter was slightly out of alignment. The starter was able to engage but could not retract because of this.

Here's a picture of the stater splines. The bottom one was the culprit.

[JVD]

Dats a pic of the FW

[zillarob]

Dats a pic of one of the dowels pushed in and not being able to locate the starter properly

[Nemesis2747]

I have an issue that is very similar. I have a JHM single lightweight flywheel and a b7 rs4 clutch. I dont think i lined up the starter right. I found the same sound on youtube and he said it needed shims. I cant pull my engine again right now....... any sugestions that dont involve an engine pull? Car starts up but makes bad sounds.

[themadscientist]

I have an issue that is very similar. I have a JHM single lightweight flywheel and a b7 rs4 clutch. I dont think i lined up the starter right. I found the same sound on youtube and he said it needed shims. I cant pull my engine again right now....... any sugestions that dont involve an engine pull? Car starts up but makes bad sounds.

I've installed about half a dozen of those flywheels without issue. Sounds like you need to align the starter.

[Nemesis2747]

I've installed about half a dozen of those flywheels without issue. Sounds like you need to align the starter.

Yea, i know. Any idea on how its supposed to be done? I am about to prepare to put my front end into service position and pull out my alternator hoping to get a good enough view. *sigh* on a driveway in November.

[Nemesis2747]

Dats a pic of one of the dowels pushed in and not being able to locate the starter properly

OOOOHHHHHH. THATS what u meant. And now i know why my starter makes noise. The idiot tightening the starter didn't feel like using the Bentley we had or one of the 4 torque wrenches lying around and stripped im guessing the starter its self. His solution was to buy a random bolt and ram it in there......and the bolt was too big and he bored out SOMETHING from the trans side to fit that bolt in. Now i know who to kill. Now i bet the starter is missing one or more dowels, need to buy both top and bottom starter bolts and now i bet the hole is too big for anything OE.

So before I go nuts about this. Does anyone know how to properly align my starter assuming i am missing one or more dowels.

[Asha]

Hey guys i know this post is old but i need some help after installing jhm chrome moly forged flywheel and r series 5, 6 puck clutch the starter is making the same noise i already replaced original starter and checked if alignment dowel/shims is in place which they are but stilled getting noise during startup i contacted company which they said is normal which i know is a crock of shit please help any suggestions