6+ Hours to replace Engine Mounts?

[amusante]

So I took my car to shop today to replace my Stern Engine Mount with the 034 Track Density after the right Stern mount seems to have broken. The shop let me know it will be about a 6 hour job due to the way they have to install. Is this for real?

Thank you

[a4kamila6]

With a lift, shouldnt take longer than 2 hours. Maybe 3 if they suck.

[amusante]

With a lift, shouldnt take longer than 2 hours. Maybe 3 if they suck.

God damnit, they're a premier Porsche shop that also specializes in Audis. The owner himself has a B5 S4 Avant

[a4kamila6]

I remember when I did the motor mounts on my car a year ago in November, it was cold as hell so maybe that motivated me, but with just the car lifted off the ground on jack stands, i dropped the whole subframe with motor and supported it with piece of plywood and floor jack. Took me like 4 hours in that crappy position so I imagine with a proper shop lift and not freezing your balls off you could get it done in 3.

[reverse.rake]

taking you to the cleaners

[Timtheguru]

Took me 4 hours total including researching the best way to do it, about 2 hours of actual labor.

(p.s. don't drop your subframe to do this.. use the simmply method..)

[DieselElectric]

Flat rate time does not equal real time.

Doesn't matter how fast anybody here can do their mounts. With flat rate, if you actually charge a 1:1 paid vs real time, you aren't making money.

Gotta pay to play.


For example, Ford Explorers pay 5 hours for ball joints, and I would have them done in an hour. I was very good at doing them, and hustled so that I could get onto the next job. The fact that I am good at my job and faster than the other guy doesn't mean I should make less money.

Sorry, it just bugs me when people try to say a shop is overcharging for X because "I can do X in half that time.". That's not how this works.

[amusante]

Hopefully, he was just trying to set expectations, but if I get charged 6 hours labor I'll be pissed. Maybe he was thinking of something different, but he said he would have to remove the oil cooler, etc. which doesn't seem like anyone else did.

[amusante]

Flat rate time does not equal real time.

Doesn't matter how fast anybody here can do their mounts. With flat rate, if you actually charge a 1:1 paid vs real time, you aren't making money.

Gotta pay to play.


For example, Ford Explorers pay 5 hours for ball joints, and I would have them done in an hour. I was very good at doing them, and hustled so that I could get onto the next job. The fact that I am good at my job and faster than the other guy doesn't mean I should make less money.

Sorry, it just bugs me when people try to say a shop is overcharging for X because "I can do X in half that time.". That's not how this works.

I get what you are saying, but when people by themselves can do it in 4, I would definitely say I'm getting overcharged if a professional shop with expertise, and the right tools and equipment is saying it's a 6 hour job, that's a little ridiculous.

[xalents23]

Should have done it yourself. It's not that hard just takes patience. Lots of info out there on this on the internet. And the special tool that will save you is called the stubby wrench. When doing motor mounts on the B5 S4. 6 hours is highway robbery. But, that's what people get when they bring it to a shop.

[DieselElectric]

If he quoted you 6 hours, and you still let them start the job, then you have no room to bitch.

Sometimes it's a job that they just don't feel like doing, so they quote high to make it worth their while.

If a shop is up front with their cost, you have every right to go somewhere else with your money.

[a4kamila6]

Flat rate time does not equal real time.

Doesn't matter how fast anybody here can do their mounts. With flat rate, if you actually charge a 1:1 paid vs real time, you aren't making money.

Gotta pay to play.


For example, Ford Explorers pay 5 hours for ball joints, and I would have them done in an hour. I was very good at doing them, and hustled so that I could get onto the next job. The fact that I am good at my job and faster than the other guy doesn't mean I should make less money.

Sorry, it just bugs me when people try to say a shop is overcharging for X because "I can do X in half that time.". That's not how this works.

Makes sense. Shops have to make money

[DieselElectric]

I get what you are saying, but when people by themselves can do it in 4, I would definitely say I'm getting overcharged if a professional shop with expertise, and the right tools and equipment is saying it's a 6 hour job, that's a little ridiculous.

Again, I don't give a shit what people can do it by themselves in. The shop spent money on those tools, and time to get the experience to do it in half the time your average back yard mechanic can do it in.

By your logic, investing time and money should net less profit. Right.

[amusante]

Again, I don't give a shit what people can do it by themselves in. The shop spent money on those tools, and time to get the experience to do it in half the time your average back yard mechanic can do it in.

By your logic, investing time and money should net less profit. Right.

Investing time and money should net more efficient work, quicker turnover, thus allowing more customers. Profit should not come through deceitful business practices. That's like saying a tow yard can keep your car for 5 days while charging you, even though you could have picked it up that day, because they invested in a tow truck.

I get certain jobs have specific allotted times. What I'm saying is, the 6 hour allotted time does not seem accurate. If they had said 4 and I see everyone here saying, yep 4 hours is about right, then fine.

[DieselElectric]

It's not deceit.

You will not find a single shop, anywhere, that charges exactly the time a job takes.

That's not how flat rate works.

You are quoted a time to do the job, that's what it costs. The fact that it can be done by someone who knows what they are doing in half the time is why flat rate exists.

Technicians are generally paid a lower hourly rate than other fields, because they have the ability to "turn" more hours in a day than they work.

I got out of the industry for the same reason. Some days I would turn 20 hours, others I would get 3.

If you don't like it, then do your own work. Don't talk shit when you don't understand how things work.

[amusante]

It's not deceit.

You will not find a single shop, anywhere, that charges exactly the time a job takes.

That's not how flat rate works.

You are quoted a time to do the job, that's what it costs. The fact that it can be done by someone who knows what they are doing in half the time is why flat rate exists.

Technicians are generally paid a lower hourly rate than other fields, because they have the ability to "turn" more hours in a day than they work.

I got out of the industry for the same reason. Some days I would turn 20 hours, others I would get 3.

If you don't like it, then do your own work. Don't talk shit when you don't understand how things work.

Please point out where I was talking shit. I very easily understood how things worked, just don't necessarily agree with it. Just wanted to verify the quote, as it seemed a little outrageous to me. Thanks for your help bruh

[AudiTechS4]

This statement is talking shit to all mechanics "Profit should not come through deceitful business practices." let me know when you go to get the top nut off and the whole mount is torn in half and your trying to get a pair of channel locks in there to hold the mount because the nut is damn near seized . 6 hours isnt crazy time at all .

dealerships and shops charge 1.5 book time straight from all data

[MacFady]

I think most people completely understand where DieselElectric is coming from. OP just wants a ballpark figure on time to gauge whether he might consider doing it himself, or whether it is worth the labor and "flat rate" charge at that shop. If OP knows he/she is going to spend 4hrs laying on the ground under his car versus the 6hrs the shop is charging, that makes the judgement call easier.

I understand the premise behind charging flat rate, however even as DieselElectric points out in their example for Explorer ball joints, I don't agree with the flat rate charge for labor being 5x the actual time it takes to do the job. In the case of OP's shop, that is not what is happening.

[amusante]

This statement is talking shit to all mechanics "Profit should not come through deceitful business practices." let me know when you go to get the top nut off and the whole mount is torn in half and your trying to get a pair of channel locks in there to hold the mount because the nut is damn near seized . 6 hours isnt crazy time at all .

dealerships and shops charge 1.5 book time straight from all data

I wasn't saying mechanics are all shady. If you're purposely adding hours to a job, why is that not deceitful? I'm not saying things shouldn't be charged by how long things are supposed to take even if they can finish sooner. I'm just saying it doesn't seem like it's supposed to take 6 hours.

[AudiTechS4]

alldata is quoting 19-20 hours to do the job . to do the job properly by torquing the top nut you need to pull the engine.

[amusante]

alldata is quoting 19-20 hours to do the job . to do the job properly by torquing the top nut you need to pull the engine.

Yikes, alright. Thanks for the info. He did mention they sometimes have to pull the engine.

[amusante]

I think most people completely understand where DieselElectric is coming from. OP just wants a ballpark figure on time to gauge whether he might consider doing it himself, or whether it is worth the labor and "flat rate" charge at that shop. If OP knows he/she is going to spend 4hrs laying on the ground under his car versus the 6hrs the shop is charging, that makes the judgement call easier.

I understand the premise behind charging flat rate, however even as DieselElectric points out in their example for Explorer ball joints, I don't agree with the flat rate charge for labor being 5x the actual time it takes to do the job. In the case of OP's shop, that is not what is happening.

Exactly, I think you nailed why I was even asking to begin with, as well as my concerns.

[Timtheguru]

Hopefully, he was just trying to set expectations, but if I get charged 6 hours labor I'll be pissed. Maybe he was thinking of something different, but he said he would have to remove the oil cooler, etc. which doesn't seem like anyone else did.

no need to remove the oil cooler.. wow.. would not let shop touch car who said they needed to remove the oil cooler.

[JVD]

Lol. Torque the mounts.

No one is pulling the motor on a 15yr old car to do motor mounts.

[themadscientist]

Investing time and money should net more efficient work, quicker turnover, thus allowing more customers. Profit should not come through deceitful business practices. That's like saying a tow yard can keep your car for 5 days while charging you, even though you could have picked it up that day, because they invested in a tow truck.

I get certain jobs have specific allotted times. What I'm saying is, the 6 hour allotted time does not seem accurate. If they had said 4 and I see everyone here saying, yep 4 hours is about right, then fine.

Fucking hilarious.

I didn't invest 60k in tools and equipment, along with the thousands of hours of personal time on training, education, and experience so that my time would be worth less.

You're also asking for an R&R on aftermarket parts, on a modified car. Book time goes out the window in that scenario. They're covering their ass, plain and simple. Or maybe they just don't like you.

Take it somewhere that will charge for 4 hours and I promise they'll make up the difference with the other shit they break in the process.

You're not just paying someone for nut and bolt work. You're paying them because you trust them to do the job correctly and not screw anything else up.

Check yourself.

This statement is talking shit to all mechanics "Profit should not come through deceitful business practices." let me know when you go to get the top nut off and the whole mount is torn in half and your trying to get a pair of channel locks in there to hold the mount because the nut is damn near seized . 6 hours isnt crazy time at all .

dealerships and shops charge 1.5 book time straight from all data

That's the worst. I always remove the bottom mount brackets and remove from underneath for that reason.

Yep, identifix shows 4 hours for it too.

alldata is quoting 19-20 hours to do the job . to do the job properly by torquing the top nut you need to pull the engine.

Technically, you can torque it using the adapter with the offset crow's foot. Similar to the ones you use with high pressure fuel lines. Not the point though.

[Zba]

I think most people completely understand where DieselElectric is coming from. OP just wants a ballpark figure on time to gauge whether he might consider doing it himself, or whether it is worth the labor and "flat rate" charge at that shop. If OP knows he/she is going to spend 4hrs laying on the ground under his car versus the 6hrs the shop is charging, that makes the judgement call easier.

I understand the premise behind charging flat rate, however even as DieselElectric points out in their example for Explorer ball joints, I don't agree with the flat rate charge for labor being 5x the actual time it takes to do the job. In the case of OP's shop, that is not what is happening.

So if you take it to a shop who has never done ball joints on an Explorer, and it takes them eight hours, should you pay for eight hours of labor? Flat rate ensures that the labor hours being charged are similar across shops. And as mentioned earlier, if a tech or a shop is booking 1:1, you are not making a living. Turning wrenches is like being a waiter.

[insomniacxp1]

I pulled the radiator, pushed condensor to the side, pulled core support, y pipe, lobster claws, hard intake line running over valve covers, and pulled the intake to the turbo's just to gain a little extra room.

Top nut torqued to spec as well as everything else down the line. Took maybe ~4 hours cruisin. I don't know the exact time it was a little while ago

Shout out to themadscientiest ^ knows whats up

[amusante]

welp fuck me guys. Didn't realize I would cause a shit storm. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting ripped off. Thanks to all for the input.

[mikeb17]

I did the motor mounts and a timing belt/water pump in 3 hours lol.

[Jism]

I remember when I did the motor mounts on my car a year ago in November, it was cold as hell so maybe that motivated me, but with just the car lifted off the ground on jack stands, i dropped the whole subframe with motor and supported it with piece of plywood and floor jack. Took me like 4 hours in that crappy position so I imagine with a proper shop lift and not freezing your balls off you could get it done in 3.

Do you see any garage in the world working on the streets, putting the car on jack stands and wrench their way through? A shop might take longer but certainly puts some quality work in that stuff.

[DieselElectric]

welp fuck me guys. Didn't realize I would cause a shit storm. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting ripped off. Thanks to all for the input.

If they are as good a shop as you say, then you can be confident in their work.

That should be worth a little more cash than the next guy.

[axnjaksn]

Flat rate time does not equal real time.

Doesn't matter how fast anybody here can do their mounts. With flat rate, if you actually charge a 1:1 paid vs real time, you aren't making money.

Gotta pay to play.


For example, Ford Explorers pay 5 hours for ball joints, and I would have them done in an hour. I was very good at doing them, and hustled so that I could get onto the next job. The fact that I am good at my job and faster than the other guy doesn't mean I should make less money.

Sorry, it just bugs me when people try to say a shop is overcharging for X because "I can do X in half that time.". That's not how this works.

I have to stand behind this explanation right here, Flat rate and actual are 2 separate things, your right too, if your flagging only what your charging, your not going to make it. the truth is, if your going to take it to a shop, you should already be expecting to pay, how do they pay for their overhead??? .....get what you pay for. If it is so easy to do and complain about the estimate, then do it yourself. Don't complain. simple as that.

you don't go to vegas and expect to win do you???

[rockcandy]

Warranty paid 13.6hrs if I remember correctly. Ah the good old days.

[axnjaksn]

and if your second guessing yourself to do the job, your already starting off on a bad note. Go into it with confidence knowing whatever happens youll get it done. I know this is something gained by experience, but some people just have it with anything that comes at them in life.

6 hours is a deal to me...id probably charge more than that if I had never done a set and the car was modified......I didn't do my mounts until I pulled my engine for turbo sway...just my opinion.

just out of curiosity...whats the labor rate??

[axnjaksn]

Warranty paid 13.6hrs if I remember correctly. Ah the good old days.

wooooow, that is good old days... benz used to pay much better warranty times too....sigh

[amusante]

I have to stand behind this explanation right here, Flat rate and actual are 2 separate things, your right too, if your flagging only what your charging, your not going to make it. the truth is, if your going to take it to a shop, you should already be expecting to pay, how do they pay for their overhead??? .....get what you pay for. If it is so easy to do and complain about the estimate, then do it yourself. Don't complain. simple as that.

you don't go to vegas and expect to win do you???

I definitely wasn't complaining. Again, just wanted to make sure 6 hours was reasonable.

and if your second guessing yourself to do the job, your already starting off on a bad note. Go into it with confidence knowing whatever happens youll get it done. I know this is something gained by experience, but some people just have it with anything that comes at them in life.

6 hours is a deal to me...id probably charge more than that if I had never done a set and the car was modified......I didn't do my mounts until I pulled my engine for turbo sway...just my opinion.

just out of curiosity...whats the labor rate??

$100/hr. This is my daily driver, so I don't want to strand myself through dumb mistakes. I take my car to this shop for everything, but I've had mounts done in the past and didn't remember it being this costly, but I may be mistaken.

[DieselElectric]

But you did say that if you actually get charged 6 hours, it will be a problem..

Did you leave the car with them when they told you 6 hours?

[joeSfour]

I did mine in my driveway, on my back, in 3 hours.

[amusante]

But you did say that if you actually get charged 6 hours, it will be a problem..

Did you leave the car with them when they told you 6 hours?

I just said I would be pissed, but that was literally after the first post of the hotshot who did it in his driveway. The car is there. I'm fucked either way since they've been diagnosing a boost leak all day and already told me the car is there until at least Monday to get the mounts in.

[Dan[FN]6262]

"already fucked"

Made conscious decision to leave car in care of shop OP claims to trust.


What the fuck kind of indecisive child are you?