Interchillers - Sub Ambient IATs

[JeromeS13]

While doing some research for Camaro ZL1 upgrades, I ran across a thread on the Camaro5 forums. There's a product from the crazy guys down under at Forced Induction Interchillers that ties into the A/C system and introduces super sub ambient coolant temperatures to your AWIC plumbing. While just driving around, they're seeing sub ambient IATs. This looks like a good possibility for you 1/4 mile guys. Road course guys could take advantage, too, if you add a large enough reservoir. Not sure of the exact pricing, as you need to email the guys to piece together a kit. I can't imagine it being much more than some of the aftermarket upgrades that are currently available. I searched AZ and couldn't find any mention of "interchillers".

Company:

http://fiinterchillers.com/

Camaro5 thread with results/info:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=432938&page=1

[Woodybangs]

The E55 platform has been using these for a while. Plenty of options available.

[BlownOne]

There's been other us companies that have built "kits" like this, but this looks like a well put together product...I sent them an email and will post in this thread on what they say. Good looking out Jerome...you didn't forget about your Audi bros, yet lol

[LittleDozer]

I've been thinking about this lately. Seems it would be really easy to hook up an AC unit to blow air directly into the intake. Subbed!

[omegis83]

There's been other us companies that have built "kits" like this, but this looks like a well put together product...I sent them an email and will post in this thread on what they say. Good looking out Jerome...you didn't forget about your Audi bros, yet lol

Ever hear anything back? I'm still curious about this and I've thought about emailing them as well.

[bhvrdr]

I was looking into them for my Camaro. They are great for 1/4 mile track but not for road course or mountain runs since they work off the compressor. The compressors turn off at WOT.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=14

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=81

Mike

[GabrielSyler]

following this one.

[LittleDozer]

I was looking into them for my Camaro. They are great for 1/4 mile track but not for road course or mountain runs since they work off the compressor. The compressors turn off at WOT.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=14

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=81

Mike

Would be awesome for between highway pulls. Blowing a cooler on top of highway cruising speeds would cool it down super fast.


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[bhvrdr]

Would be awesome for between highway pulls. Blowing a cooler on top of highway cruising speeds would cool it down super fast.


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For sure, for highway pulls and for the 1/4 mile track it seems awesome. Your car is going to be thinking its a 40 degree day outside. You can run it with the cabin A/C on or run in competition mode and bypass the cabin A/C and run full interchiller mode. This will keep you from dripping too.

I just put an AFCO dual pass on my other car and a 1.1gallon extra reservoir. I went that route for road course use but i'm still thinking of an interchiller.

Mike

[Loe]

Does air density work that way? I ask because you're compressing hot air that's already thin, would it actually create more dense air? I know that it will create cooler air in that short length of time.

The biggest limiting factor for us is our small s/c intercooler cores, compared to other Eaton TVS units ours are very small. Our aftermarket heat exchanger options are quite nice compared to other Eaton platforms, but the cores are very very small and aren't efficient at keeping iat's consistent throughout a multi gear pull once we spin the S/C beyond stage II levels. Other Eaton TVS units have larger central cores with room for upgrades.

[bhvrdr]

Keep in mind they are using the IAT2 sensor which is mounted post SC and Pre head. The actual intercooler temps get down below freezing (if there wasn't anti freeze, they'd have frozen up), but the IAT temps get down to around 40F on some 80 degree plus days so they are reading.

Now because you must run a healthy amount of anti-freeze, you may not run as well on the road course where it would be better to run distilled water and a coolant performance additive (water wetter/super cool).


EDIT: BTW, yes I agree with you on the IC cores. That's my limiting factor as well. Even though I added a ton of capacity its still not perfect. I'm in the same boat. Still, tripling capacity doesn't hurt. You should try rigging a remote reservoir/ice box. It would cost a hundred bucks. Run another pump to it and see if it helps out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ICE-BOX-TANK...3D291077792095


Mike

[Loe]

An ice box is intriguing for sure! Someone should rig one up.

regardless of how efficient (or inefficient) our intercooler is, I agree maintain cooler fluid temps will help. Fluid temps going in/out of the S/C will be below ambient with either method to combat heat. While IAT's may go up, fluid temps do not rise at a 1:1 ratio; this cooler liquid will aid recovery after being on boost.

[Thurston]

that is pretty impressive to see that condensation on the supercharger in the Camaro forum. Is that a result of this interchiller mod after much driving? looks like the holy grail of cooling if so.

[LittleDozer]

Cheers!


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[Loe]

I recently had a liquid-to-liquid refrigerant cooler installed...

I want to test it further to get concrete data with VCDS before I make a full review first (which I'll make in a separate thread for ease of searching). It took a while for me to obtain one as each other is built to order to the point where you do wonder if you'll get it lol (but the seller is communicative and was great to work with). Since there isn't a kit for out car, you really have to purchase a few extra items on top of it, but again i'll get those details once I can show that it works and is to our benefit.

So far, initial impressions (despite the s/c loop lines being routed in a not so ideal fashion, which will get fixed today):

pros:
-my underhood reservoir from my AWE coldfront is chilly to the touch, even after 5 mins of idling with the hood closed
-the same reservoir now has some condensation on the exterior of the tank
-my intercooler is cold to the touch
-IAT's idle, cruising at speed, and acceleration are more favorable
-cabin temps aren't affected as long as the car is moving
-The S/C is still hot, however touching it is fine and not to the point where your natural instinct is to pull you hand away because its too hot like before. If you put a cold towel to the S/C, heat simply transfers to it, whereas before you would hear a slight sizzle.

cons:
-because of the lower starting IAT's, the delta is greater during a 1-4 gear pull (even though IAT's when completed is lower overall)
-at idle, the A/C blows out cool air as opposed to cold air.

With the lines reconfigured, it should get colder throughout the entire system. I'll get some pros/cons of the unit itself, and how I have it hooked up, but again I want to make sure it works (and works well at the 1/4mile) before others fork over $1200-1500 for it (including installation that shops may charge + other parts that must be purchased). My shop did a big undertaking on it as it was their first time doing it, but they did state that it was pretty straight forward and they did a wonderful job integrating the kit where it's not visible under the hood (out of sight, out of mind).

[xpoweruk]

Interesting stuff Loe.
Is the liquid-to-liquid refrigerant cooler a branded item & freely available?

[theswoleguy]

insulate some of the ac lines Loe to assist with temp control.

[RudyH]

Question though, isn't the AC run off the accessory along with supercharger?
Wouldn't it make more sense to have it turned off = clutch disengaged, therefore not robbing more power from the engine? I can't imagine the difference in air temperature is going to make that drastic of a difference.

HOWEVER, as accessories are more and more running off the electrical system in an effort to have electric motors in every car, does the AC in the Camaro run off accessory? or electric? If electric this makes complete sense...

Loe's idea makes more sense in our cars at least, while idling before hitting the line crank up the AC, and use the cold coolant.

[k6750gsxr]

I recently had a liquid-to-liquid refrigerant cooler installed...

I want to test it further to get concrete data with VCDS before I make a full review first (which I'll make in a separate thread for ease of searching). It took a while for me to obtain one as each other is built to order to the point where you do wonder if you'll get it lol (but the seller is communicative and was great to work with). Since there isn't a kit for out car, you really have to purchase a few extra items on top of it, but again i'll get those details once I can show that it works and is to our benefit.

So far, initial impressions (despite the s/c loop lines being routed in a not so ideal fashion, which will get fixed today):

pros:
-my underhood reservoir from my AWE coldfront is chilly to the touch, even after 5 mins of idling with the hood closed
-the same reservoir now has some condensation on the exterior of the tank
-my intercooler is cold to the touch
-IAT's idle, cruising at speed, and acceleration are more favorable
-cabin temps aren't affected as long as the car is moving
-The S/C is still hot, however touching it is fine and not to the point where your natural instinct is to pull you hand away because its too hot like before. If you put a cold towel to the S/C, heat simply transfers to it, whereas before you would hear a slight sizzle.

cons:
-because of the lower starting IAT's, the delta is greater during a 1-4 gear pull (even though IAT's when completed is lower overall)
-at idle, the A/C blows out cool air as opposed to cold air.

With the lines reconfigured, it should get colder throughout the entire system. I'll get some pros/cons of the unit itself, and how I have it hooked up, but again I want to make sure it works (and works well at the 1/4mile) before others fork over $1200-1500 for it (including installation that shops may charge + other parts that must be purchased). My shop did a big undertaking on it as it was their first time doing it, but they did state that it was pretty straight forward and they did a wonderful job integrating the kit where it's not visible under the hood (out of sight, out of mind).

I was hoping some one would try this. I was pm with a member about a system like this http://killerchiller.com/products/un...l-parallel-kit for our cars . Cant wait for your results.

[bhvrdr]

Question though, isn't the AC run off the accessory along with supercharger?
Wouldn't it make more sense to have it turned off = clutch disengaged, therefore not robbing more power from the engine? I can't imagine the difference in air temperature is going to make that drastic of a difference.

HOWEVER, as accessories are more and more running off the electrical system in an effort to have electric motors in every car, does the AC in the Camaro run off accessory? or electric? If electric this makes complete sense...

Loe's idea makes more sense in our cars at least, while idling before hitting the line crank up the AC, and use the cold coolant.

Way to go Loe in taking one for the team and trying something new! Thanks man and wish you the best.


The A/C runs off the accessory drives in both cars (camaro and S4). What tiny amount of hp you may lose from running the compressor (1-2hp maybe?) you would more than gain in lower IATs (or so the theory goes).

This is the ideal modification for 1/4 mile runs once loe gets the routing sorted it should be even better. On the Camaro the entire supercharger lid starts having condensation all over it.


This is NOT the ideal modification for road course racing or mountain runs with repeated runs because once you go WOT this unit is no longer active and helping to cool the liquid. It works while going part throttle and during idle, which again , makes it extremely well suited for 1/4 mile runs.


Mike

[Loe]

Thanks Mike! I hope it works out and not a $1200 mistake lol

Our compressors really don't sap too much power from acceleration enough to be noticeable in daily driving (the compressor turns off at more than 50% throttle anyways). What you do notice is crisper throttle response via IAT's that so far are 12-15*c lower in daily driving than without the unit (this was done in 93F heat).

The original idea behind me wanting to try this kit is to start the IAT's low, and therefore it would hopefully end lower in the 1/4mile, despite having a higher delta from start-to-finish. Our intercooler cores mounted next to our S/C simply cannot keep up with the air flowing their their fins at WOT, there currently isn't a way around that, so this would be the most simple solution aside from a true trunk mounted ice box.

[Loe]

Interesting stuff Loe.
Is the liquid-to-liquid refrigerant cooler a branded item & freely available?

Yes, in fact you can make one yourself and save $$ to be honest.

[Loe]

insulate some of the ac lines Loe to assist with temp control.

I thought about that, especially since our A/C return lines are near the drivers side exhaust manifold.

I was hoping some one would try this. I was pm with a member about a system like this http://killerchiller.com/products/un...l-parallel-kit for our cars . Cant wait for your results.

I'll try to make it to one of the ASOT meetings in Tampa Bay soon to show how the system works. Evan and his crew at Crown Motorsports did an elegant job in installing and mounting the hardware and lines to be out of site and out of mind. It in theory should benefit those in our climates where we need the A/C compressor running almost every day more for interior humidity control rather than cooling it off (like in the winter or during night drives).

[eurotic]

Is there a simple way to wire a switch that would trick the AC system to ignore the throttle input or that no throttle was being applied? My thought is that when running on a road/autocross course that the cooling effect would outweigh the power loss due to running the AC compressor. I suspect it would be better for the system to just stay on constantly than the compressor kicking in and out during a run.

[Loe]

Is there a simple way to wire a switch that would trick the AC system to ignore the throttle input or that no throttle was being applied? My thought is that when running on a road/autocross course that the cooling effect would outweigh the power loss due to running the AC compressor. I suspect it would be better for the system to just stay on constantly than the compressor kicking in and out during a run.

I would be worried about having the compressor stay on at those throttle applications.

[bhvrdr]

You'd likely need to switch over to a DC electric A/C system which IMO would be a nightmare and not likely work as well anyways.

Mike

[ntsantos]

You'd likely need to switch over to a DC electric A/C system which IMO would be a nightmare and not likely work as well anyways.

Mike

KC makes a stand-alone kit that can be run independent of the comfort AC system. Only downside I see is cost $2400.

[Loe]

just a quick update in 93F weather today starting the engine with a warm-start/warm engine bay...

I highlighted the time stamp in the log which I believe is in seconds, you'll see how drastically it drops. Keep in mind that in this weather/temp and considering how slow I was moving, previously my IAT's would rarely drop below 53.75*C directly after starting the car in this weather unless I was starting with a cold engine bay, or if I get onto the interstate after a warm start, especially again considering how slow I was moving within a few minutes:



I'll get more data once it cools down more closer to the end of Oct (or whenever we get back to average temperatures and out of this continued heat wave), I suspect IAT's will be able to drop to near 20C without an issue once temps drop to the more normal upper 60's/low 70's in the fall

[bhvrdr]

Getting there!

Keep in mind the time stamps are not in seconds. They're much faster than seconds. There should be room for even more improvement too I'd imagine.

Mike

[BlownOne]

Iats look real good brotha!

[Loe]

Getting there!

Keep in mind the time stamps are not in seconds. They're much faster than seconds. There should be room for even more improvement too I'd imagine.

Mike

Yes, I'm still looking into a few more pieces of the puzzle to manually bypass to the front mount intercooler. It's strange to see the IAT's rise when you are cruising over 50mph due to the warmer outside air warming up the fluid coming out of the S/C (a testament of how much colder the fluid coming out of the S/C is as compared to the fluid being passed through the intercooler), and will make the unit work more efficiently at a slower cruise to lower IAT's even further. On a cold start, it's not uncommon for me to see IAT's start at 39*, and drop below 30*C and hover there until I got WOT. Removing the front mount intercooler out of the equation for the warmer months (like how the Mustang/Camaro guys do it) is more ideal.

some WOT runs (logging to send to GIAC for finalization, and also after multiple pulls prior to) data:
Pre-cooler addition: 53.75*C start / 84.25*C end 60mph 3rd to top of 4th gear pull
Post-cooler addition: 43.25*C start / 70.2*C end 60mph 3rd to top of 4th gear pull

Keep in mind B8.5's longer gears

Iats look real good brotha!

Yeah, it will improve as soon as a 3-way bypass gets installed to bypass the front mount. I didn't want to buy the unit from the maker because it's rather expensive for something that is electronically switched, a manually switchable one will suite me just fine.

[613B6]

Great info Loe, it will be interesting to see once you can bypass the front, hopefully that will help more. Its pretty clear we cant get these small IC cores to absorb much more heat, hence why I've always been a big fan of injection.

[Loe]

This morning in 30*C (86*F) ambient,

cold start IAT 34.5*C (94.1*F), within 5 minutes it dropped to 25.5*C (77.9*F), but as soon as I got up to the normal 45-50mph city traffic here, IAT's jumped back to 28-29*C (82.4*F-84.2*F). It should have chilled it further, so I am going to definitely bypass the HX all together and run it that way through winter and change anything if I don't like the results.

...on another note, at WOT when it does reach 7x.xx*C, it drops back down to 4x.xx*C within a minute, the fluid is cold enough to drop it down despite the s/c cores not being super efficient when lots of moving air passes it. So far, very happy

[bhvrdr]

Thats a good start Loe. I see people who use the interchiller product get down to like 9C iat temps though or 30F below ambients. He claims to have pretty advanced distribution in his chiller and that making the difference but who knows. Any ideas from your guy? Did you go through this person or killer?

7. We have a specialized distribution into our chiller, this gets much colder temps and gets colder faster in comparison to other chillers. (cooling time is important in racing)
This is because the distribution of the AC gas is even across all of the plates.
Without the distribution device the gas hits the base of the chiller and only uses the bottom few plates which gives a maldistribution and a poor heat exchange. (see below image)

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=59

Thanks,
Mike

[BlownOne]

Thats a good start Loe. I see people who use the interchiller product get down to like 9C iat temps though or 30F below ambients. He claims to have pretty advanced distribution in his chiller and that making the difference but who knows. Any ideas from your guy? Did you go through this person or killer?

7. We have a specialized distribution into our chiller, this gets much colder temps and gets colder faster in comparison to other chillers. (cooling time is important in racing)
This is because the distribution of the AC gas is even across all of the plates.
Without the distribution device the gas hits the base of the chiller and only uses the bottom few plates which gives a maldistribution and a poor heat exchange. (see below image)

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=59

Thanks,
Mike

If that is the company in the first post of this thread, they wanted $1900 for their system when I contacted them.

Edit: Yes that is the company.

[Loe]

looking at their pictures, it's not the product that I have but rather either a custom liquid-to-liquid cooler or another brand (there are at least 3 that I know of).

[infinkc]

Wonder if SRM will ever release theirs, i know they had developed one for their twin charged car before.

[Loe]

Wonder if SRM will ever release theirs, i know they had developed one for their twin charged car before.

Would be great for their solution. FWIW, there is plenty of space on either side of the front area of the car to mount any of these liquid-to-liquid units.

[Loe]

Another update 86F mid-morning pull

First pull:
Start 30mph IAT 33*C
End 115mph IAT 63*C

second pull:
Start 30mph IAT 33*C
End 110mph IAT 60*C

This is with the front mount HX and the pulls were within 3 minutes of each other. I'll have some more data after the front mount HX is removed from the loop. If favorable (ie. starting IAT's at any speed being lower), my AWE intercooler will be put up in the F/S section...

[BlownOne]

Another update 86F mid-morning pull

First pull:
Start 30mph IAT 33*C
End 115mph IAT 63*C

second pull:
Start 30mph IAT 33*C
End 110mph IAT 60*C

This is with the front mount HX and the pulls were within 3 minutes of each other. I'll have some more data after the front mount HX is removed from the loop. If favorable (ie. starting IAT's at any speed being lower), my AWE intercooler will be put up in the F/S section...

Now that's good shit brotha! Can you do a standing start 1-4 gear pull with a launch to simulate the strip to get some data for the track whores? Would be interesting to see what a longer pull does to the fluid.