JB1 stage 1 vs APR stage 2 (Dyno comparison)

[Moha]

Hey there

Had a JB1 installed on my S3 2 months ago. Car felt noticeably quicker, had the car dynoed and made 292whp (With catback and JB1 only). Slight issue was the loss of power after a few runs.. Temps here in summer (I live in Kuwait) are constantly 50C (122F).

Main switch was the need for a tune in order to have the catless DP installed.

After the intake/DP and APR stage 2 tune the car pulls like a TRAIN! Managed to also reach a new top speed of 286kph/177mph (closed road).

Dynoed and made 314awhp.. Which is around a 22awhp gain.. Expected slightly more to be honest but that shows how the JB1 did make good power. Both dyno runs were under very similar conditions but on different dates.

Oil temps have decreased by around 10C's.. This was a huge surprise and added bonus.

Soundwise, the car has a very loud tone when WOT. Slightly more rasp due to the catless DP though.. It crackles and burbles alot now in 1st and 2nd gear low speeds.

graph below:



20km to 286km pull video:

http://youtu.be/oWmObfmxF1A

Glad I went ahead with the upgrade.

Thanks!

[mroberte]

Very nice numbers!

[magnessr]

Surprising to see the lower numbers, when APR advertises 350hp/380tq at the wheels with the Stage II High Torque 93octane file.

Which version do you have? Maybe this is due to the dyno or temp?

[Baggio]

APR stage 2 93 octane high torque?

[ChrisF1]

I'm not sure about S2, but my JB1 retards boost/timing big time when temps get above 90F. In your environment, I assume it's much worse.

Thanks for posting some real world numbers.

[StigThe]

Also suprised the difference wasn't greater.

Unfortunate you didn't dyno with dp + jb1. (Understand dyno costs but...)

Would have been real interesting to see how much was due to dp and how much due to flash tune...

[MathildaS3]

Thank you for sharing. We JB1 guys like seeing these direct comparison numbers. 👍🏼

[2015S3]

I am seeing about a solid 30-32WHP difference with the stage-2 Eurodyne (same dyno, same car, same mods - albeit different days)

[Moha]

93 high output file

Temp was 39C (102F)

[StigThe]

I guess you would need an IC or some E85 to get better numbers in those extreme temps...

[Moha]

I'm not sure about S2, but my JB1 retards boost/timing big time when temps get above 90F. In your environment, I assume it's much worse.

Thanks for posting some real world numbers.

I did feel the timing pull (power fluctuations). Its very hot here, oil temp would easily go above 115C(239F)

- - - Updated - - -

I guess you would need an IC or some E85 to get better numbers in those extreme temps...

APR IC and an Oil cooler are next on th list ;)

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you for sharing. We JB1 guys like seeing these direct comparison numbers. 👍🏼

Your most welcome :D

[Moha]

Also suprised the difference wasn't greater.

Unfortunate you didn't dyno with dp + jb1. (Understand dyno costs but...)

Would have been real interesting to see how much was due to dp and how much due to flash tune...

Yeah costs around 80usd for a single run here

How much are they charging you for dyno runs?

[tekkie]

i would be curious to see if there was much difference if you did the jb1 / downpipe, i noticed a nice increase after installing the dp after driving with a jb1 for months

[Moha]

i would be curious to see if there was much difference if you did the jb1 / downpipe, i noticed a nice increase after installing the dp after driving with a jb1 for months

Is your DP with a cat or without? Heard that the JB1 would not eliminate a CEL?

[tekkie]

Is your DP with a cat or without? Heard that the JB1 would not eliminate a CEL?

without, the jb1 wont remove the CEL for sure

[Moha]

without, the jb1 wont remove the CEL for sure

You did change the map to accommodate more boost right? Or was the power felt right after installation?

[Moha]

Dyno vid

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wwj9o_4r65o

Need a boost sensor and tap for the P3 since it only reads a max of 22.5PSI

[tekkie]

You did change the map to accommodate more boost right? Or was the power felt right after installation?

nope, i have not adjusted anything yet, i will once i install my IC

[Moha]

nope, i have not adjusted anything yet, i will once i install my IC

Thanks for clarifying:D

[HurrayFive]

Nicely done for getting the before & after runs in, dyno time is never cheap.

The high temps kill, it's regularly 115+ here in Phx this time of year and regardless of what you're running the car is pulling timing, an intercooler makes a big difference in run-to-run consistency, but compared to our winters it's a HUGE difference in peak power. Back to back runs in 75 degree weather would likely look totally different for both the JB1 and APR.

Couple of things to note here, Haldex cars should always be dyno'd in FWD mode (it's as simple as pulling a fuse or controllable via software). The reason being is the Haldex controller is unpredictable on rollers, it can send power front to back or vice versa in ways that skew the run. APR does all of their Haldex dynos this way, as does my personal tuning shop. Both your JB1 and APR run could put out totally different numbers in FWD mode, and back to back AWD runs could put out completely different numbers with the same setup because of the skew.

The other piece to note is how ridiculous the power curve gets on the JB1, at multiple points in the curve there's an almost 40WHP difference between the two...the result of only being able to control additive boost and letting the ECU try to adjust fueling via the O2 reads. The tuned run has a consistent curve because fuel, timing, and boost are all adjusted and controllable. It's something that gets brought up again and again, but it's a picture perfect example of the difference between the two options.

[Blaine]

Thank you for sharing. We JB1 guys like seeing these direct comparison numbers. 👍🏼

+1 I have the JB1 with catback and intake. Switching to a Stage 2 after I get an intercooler and DP.

[Moha]

Nicely done for getting the before & after runs in, dyno time is never cheap.

The high temps kill, it's regularly 115+ here in Phx this time of year and regardless of what you're running the car is pulling timing, an intercooler makes a big difference in run-to-run consistency, but compared to our winters it's a HUGE difference in peak power. Back to back runs in 75 degree weather would likely look totally different for both the JB1 and APR.

Couple of things to note here, Haldex cars should always be dyno'd in FWD mode (it's as simple as pulling a fuse or controllable via software). The reason being is the Haldex controller is unpredictable on rollers, it can send power front to back or vice versa in ways that skew the run. APR does all of their Haldex dynos this way, as does my personal tuning shop. Both your JB1 and APR run could put out totally different numbers in FWD mode, and back to back AWD runs could put out completely different numbers with the same setup because of the skew.

The other piece to note is how ridiculous the power curve gets on the JB1, at multiple points in the curve there's an almost 40WHP difference between the two...the result of only being able to control additive boost and letting the ECU try to adjust fueling via the O2 reads. The tuned run has a consistent curve because fuel, timing, and boost are all adjusted and controllable. It's something that gets brought up again and again, but it's a picture perfect example of the difference between the two options.

Thanks for the info, will definitely try it using FWD mode

[magnessr]

Couple of things to note here, Haldex cars should always be dyno'd in FWD mode (it's as simple as pulling a fuse or controllable via software).

What fuse can be pulled to do this? Does it throw codes while unplugged that cause any issue?

[Baggio]

What fuse can be pulled to do this? Does it throw codes while unplugged that cause any issue?

I think you have to pull the connector underneath the car to disconnect the rear wheels.

[HurrayFive]

I think you have to pull the connector underneath the car to disconnect the rear wheels.

It might be this, my shop mentioned it's doable via a fused connector or via software, I'm assuming the connector has an inline fuse? I've never actually pulled it myself, but they make it sound very straightforward and then the car sends no power to the rear. APR makes a note of it in the small print on all their dyno figures.

[Arrested_Decay]

Is "closed road" in Kuwait like "Mexico" in the US? LOL.

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[Moha]

Is "closed road" in Kuwait like "Mexico" in the US? LOL.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Lol, yeah. Hahahahaha

[slick99]

i have seen slight power loss when the oil temp was going up to 113c, IC is must for JB1 or stage 1/2 for those who live in tropical/hot climate region

[Moha]

i have seen slight power loss when the oil temp was going up to 113c, IC is must for JB1 or stage 1/2 for those who live in tropical/hot climate region

IC next on my list.. Cant decide which one though!

[slick99]

IC next on my list.. Cant decide which one though!

I might go for Revo new mqb intercooler since i got Revo dp and airfilter with inlet hose from Dxb dealer

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[mroberte]

The unitronic IC is on sale right now. Was going to get it over the Wagner which comes with the silicone hoses, but I live in a fairly cold climate, not sure if it was worth it right now (jb1, dp, exhaust), and honestly, the install looks like a nightmare. Might purchase if the jb4 comes out.

[HurrayFive]

IC next on my list.. Cant decide which one though!

The unitronic IC is on sale right now. Was going to get it over the Wagner which comes with the silicone hoses, but I live in a fairly cold climate, not sure if it was worth it right now (jb1, dp, exhaust), and honestly, the install looks like a nightmare. Might purchase if the jb4 comes out.

The Uni has been solid for almost a year now, I had it installed end of last August and it made an instant difference in our summer heat compared to stock. Car still sucks in the heat compared to winter but it sucks noticeably less with the Uni IC.

I installed the ZZP front mount on my own in my old '09 Cobalt SS turbo, that install sucked, took all day. The entire front bumper, both wheels, and all of the shrouding back to the trans almost had to come off, keeping all of that stuff supported on chairs (you can't just throw the whole bumper on the ground) while I wiggled the new IC in was a bitch. The install for the S3 looked just as fun, but luckily my shop had never done one on an 8V S3 at the time so they only charged me an hour labor as a "learning" job, afterwards they said it's 4 hours labor easy. Still worth it once you're running the extra boost IMO, but doing the install by yourself does not look like a good time.

[HHughes1]

APR advertises bhp not whp. Given the temperature I'm surprised the numbers are that high.

[Baggio]

Surprising to see the lower numbers, when APR advertises 350hp/380tq at the wheels with the Stage II High Torque 93octane file.

Which version do you have? Maybe this is due to the dyno or temp?

APR uses a different style of dyno. They use one that attaches to the wheel hub vs the dynojet that uses rollers. There is less drivetrain loss with the dyno that APR uses. I just noticed his graph is using the STD correction. If you did it with SAE correction, I am sure the numbers would go up because it would correct for the high temps. SAE corrects to I think 70F degrees and at sea level.

[hodrosS42001]

Makes perfect sense, an intercooler wont help too much on a dyno. I wonder how much would be gained with the APR software running racegas instead of pump on the pump gas file.. just to keep egt and knock down.

Seems pretty solid over for both results, if you think your car is quick, you would be blown away by how these or any FI car acts at 0 degrees and a negative DA ;)

[Baggio]

Makes perfect sense, an intercooler wont help too much on a dyno. I wonder how much would be gained with the APR software running racegas instead of pump on the pump gas file.. just to keep egt and knock down.

Seems pretty solid over for both results, if you think your car is quick, you would be blown away by how these or any FI car acts at 0 degrees and a negative DA ;)

I saw a post on the 8V S3 Facebook group where the poster gained 12 HP on the dyno because his ED 1.5 tune was pulling timing with the stock IC. Just food for thought.

[Moha]

Makes perfect sense, an intercooler wont help too much on a dyno. I wonder how much would be gained with the APR software running racegas instead of pump on the pump gas file.. just to keep egt and knock down.

Seems pretty solid over for both results, if you think your car is quick, you would be blown away by how these or any FI car acts at 0 degrees and a negative DA ;)

Tune is on 93 but the gas we have here is 95. Using the higher octane just to be on the safe side.

Would love to try the racefile, issue is its very hard to find that here in Kuwait

[magnessr]

APR advertises bhp not whp.

they have dyno sheets of wheel or crank on their site.

[S3Danny]

Makes perfect sense, an intercooler wont help too much on a dyno. I wonder how much would be gained with the APR software running racegas instead of pump on the pump gas file.. just to keep egt and knock down.

Seems pretty solid over for both results, if you think your car is quick, you would be blown away by how these or any FI car acts at 0 degrees and a negative DA ;)

Intercooler will definitely show gains on a dyno, assuming there is a good fan in front of it. Any car will pull timing like crazy once IATs start going up.

[2015S3]

I installed the uni in my driveway with the wifey kicking in and helping! She did make a few comments as to why the hell someone would do this. It took me two days, when working at home with no lift and the only reason was because after I go the stock one out it started raining.

It is a serious PIA on the 8vS3 if you don't disconnect that AC condenser, had I done that would have been done in about 5-hours I am sure.