Push Clutch to Start Issue - Logical Progression to Diagnose/Fix

**A4Ultrasport** · 07-18-2016 12:06 PM

Hi All - I know there are already several threads on the push clutch to start issue, but as many of those threads are lengthy and are quite technical in nature, I wanted to start one that focuses more on the best way to logically diagnose/fix the issue.

Here's my current situation. My 2012 S4 has 49K miles. Over the past year or so, it has become increasingly difficult to start without really pushing the clutch pedal through the floor. My factory warranty is up, however I have the CPO warranty for another 1.5 years. What is the best way to tackle this issue? Should I start at the dealer since I have some warranty coverage, or work with an aftermarket shop such as Eurocode (I live nearby). I'm trying to avoid having the dealer propose several expensive fixes that won't be covered under warranty (such as replacing the clutch, etc.) if the problem is only going to return despite these repairs. Other than the starting issue, my clutch seems to be in good shape.

Any advice you can throw my way would be great. It would be really helpful for all who are experiencing this issue if we could come up with a logical progression of things to repair/replace in order to keep costs down and hopefully effectively eliminate this problem. Thanks!

**SportVier** · 07-18-2016 12:34 PM

Not sure I should encourage your laziness, but...

My experience led to the root cause being a worn clutch disk.
Started having symptoms at about 45k miles.
Sequence followed by the dealer was:
1. Bleed
2. Replace MC
3. Bleed
4. Replace clutch

See my summary post here.

Ideally I would have just jumped to 4 and saved a bunch of dealer visits, but at least I got a new MC out of the process.

Hope that helps.

**infinkc** · 07-18-2016 12:45 PM

If you summarize the other posts, the dealer has always blamed the clutch as the issue and will only change it out to the cost of around ~$4500. Many have contacted AoA and the costs were cut in half. The clutch is a wear item and they will not warranty it. I suggust going aftermarket, and finding a reputable shop change it, skip the dealer. I still have the issue even after i went aftermarket, so a new clutch is not always the end fix.

**SportVier** · 07-18-2016 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by infinkc

I suggust going aftermarket, and finding a reputable shop change it, skip the dealer.

Definitely get quotes first. My dealer came in lower than local shops and offered a loaner. Should be around $2500 for OEM clutch.

**jlaudio** · 07-18-2016 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by SportVier

Definitely get quotes first. My dealer came in lower than local shops and offered a loaner. Should be around $2500 for OEM clutch.

that quote must have been without the flywheel being replaced. I think its about $1k for the clutch disk and $1500 for just labor. If you had a clutch job including flywheel for $2500 please do share the shop. I'd ship my car to them if it was that cheap..

**SportVier** · 07-18-2016 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by jlaudio

that quote must have been without the flywheel being replaced.

As I wrote, "Should be around $2500 for OEM clutch."

**S4'ed** · 07-18-2016 08:12 PM

I don't think there is any "proper" fix for this issue...Audi Engineering has not figured it out yet! I think some of the "kludge" fixes in the long technical thread are the only solutions today.

It seems to be an unfortunate normal wear "stack-up" of tolerances that the clutch mechanism geometry is susceptible to.

**A4Ultrasport** · 07-18-2016 09:14 PM

So is there any reason to replace the clutch then?

**Thurston** · 07-18-2016 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by S4'ed

I don't think there is any "proper" fix for this issue...Audi Engineering has not figured it out yet! I think some of the "kludge" fixes in the long technical thread are the only solutions today.

It seems to be an unfortunate normal wear "stack-up" of tolerances that the clutch mechanism geometry is susceptible to.

that final line perfectly sums up the absolute quagmire of an issue this seems to boil down to.

also regarding audi engineering, do you think that there is actually an engineer pondering this issue and actively trying to work it out or has it been relegated to a f*ck it let's focus on the b9 kind of issue?

I see other car clutches, like the cts-v handling over 600whp and I think, wow that's amazing. maybe it's not a fair comparison but why does audi suck so cheaply sometimes on the most crucial of parts? that said, fortunately my clutch has not experienced this issue.

**SportVier** · 07-18-2016 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by A4Ultrasport

So is there any reason to replace the clutch then?

Only if you want to start the car.

**SportVier** · 07-18-2016 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Thurston

also regarding audi engineering, do you think that there is actually an engineer pondering this issue and actively trying to work it out or has it been relegated to a f*ck it let's focus on the b9 kind of issue?

The latter sounds more likely to me.

**A4Ultrasport** · 07-18-2016 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by SportVier

Only if you want to start the car.

As I understand it, some folks have replaced their clutch and still have the an issue starting their car ...

**SportVier** · 07-19-2016 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by A4Ultrasport

As I understand it, some folks have replaced their clutch and still have the an issue starting their car ...

Could be wrong, but I think everyone who has had the clutch replaced with all OEM parts has been ok. Definitely makes sense to me that some aftermarket clutches, even when new, might have the issue given how tight the tolerance on the switch seems to be.

As for a real solution... modified slave cylinder with an adjustable push rod?

**GoNavy** · 07-19-2016 01:57 AM

My assessment is that it's the switch that tells the computer the clutch is depressed so it can start. I have no issues once the car is on. Dealership gave me the same BS solution. It's just the initial clutch depression to turn on the car that occasionally is the problem.

**EHesh14** · 07-19-2016 09:37 AM

Check slave/master cylinder for leaks. This happened to me after my jhm clutch/flywheel combo was installed a few months later and a local shop replaced the Slave and adjusted the clutch pedal

**jygesq** · 07-19-2016 09:45 AM

is this just a problem with cars that do not have original Audi Clutch ?

**A4Ultrasport** · 07-19-2016 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by jygesq

is this just a problem with cars that do not have original Audi Clutch ?

My car still has the original Audi clutch. Problem began about 12-15 months ago at 35K miles, now at 50K and its becoming quite difficult to start.

**SportVier** · 07-19-2016 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by GoNavy

My assessment is that it's the switch that tells the computer the clutch is depressed so it can start.

Well, yeah. The switch is integral to the MC. I had the MC replaced, so new switch, but issue did not go away. Could be two bad switches in a row? I think consensus is that the issue is where the MC piston is relative to the switch in the bore, not the switch itself. Basically, wear downstream (and PP adjustment to account for it) starts to limit how far the piston can move in the bore. Which is why pushing harder helps.

**SportVier** · 07-19-2016 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by EHesh14

a local shop replaced the Slave and adjusted the clutch pedal

So you installed an adjustable slave? Where did you source that?

**EHesh14** · 07-19-2016 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by SportVier

So you installed an adjustable slave? Where did you source that?

oh no just the oem slave. I actually just had it replaced a third time 2 months (thankfully part and install under warranty) after it failed. I just hope this one lasts. I was getting the spongy feel again

**S4'ed** · 07-19-2016 02:15 PM

I think the adjustable slave cylinder rod would be a good fix to try, and is easy to get at to remove and replace. Or just grind off a little bit of the rod tip, to make it slightly shorter.

I also like the idea of modifying the mounting of the switch on the Clutch Master Cylinder (MC), to move it slightly closer to the firewall end of the MC, but I think it is more hassle to get it out of the car it to try this mod.

Because there is a TSB on this issue, Audi Engineering was looking into it....but I agree, they probably dropped the investigation when they started working on the B9. I bet the B9 has a revised clutch mechanism. It would be interesting to compare them...might lead to more insight to the root-cause.

**infinkc** · 07-19-2016 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by S4'ed

I think the adjustable slave cylinder rod would be a good fix to try, and is easy to get at to remove and replace. r just grind off a little bit of the rod tip, to make it slightly shorter.

I also like the idea of modifying the mounting of the switch on the Clutch Master Cylinder (MC), to move it slightly closer to the firewall end of the MC, but I think it is more hassle to get it out of the car it to try this mod.

I wonder how the slave rod looks on the b8, I remember on my b5 I was able to make it shorter.

**S4'ed** · 07-19-2016 02:30 PM

The B8 slave has a fixed rod...no adjustment...hence the idea to grind a little off the tip to shorten it. The other thing to try is maybe elongate the plastic mounting bolt hole in the slave body, then you could mount the slave a little further "back" on the transmission case, to achieve the same result. And it could be a bit "adjustable", depending how much you elongate the hole.

**A4Ultrasport** · 07-19-2016 02:58 PM

Out of curiosity, has anyone replaced their clutch with another Audi factory clutch and had this issue come back?

**Senseless** · 07-19-2016 03:28 PM

Couldn't you theoretcially parallel wire in a new momentary pushbutton switch, mount it in the dash and press that if the car won't start?

**S4'ed** · 07-19-2016 08:35 PM

yes

**AIF Felix** · 07-19-2016 10:27 PM

I had to push my clutch all the way to start at around ~75K took it to Audi. had MC replaced. issue still was there so they suggested clutch for ~4500. I also started to notice my clutch slipping. Would have gone aftermarket so i can do STGII but fuuuuuuuck the CDN - USD conversion. Got an OEM clutch/plate installed for ~1600 CDN at an independent shop. Issue solved and clutch feels solid after 6 months/8K. Issue seems to be in the plate. But my clutch was also worn a good amount. They showed it all to me.

**jays2ktl** · 07-19-2016 10:47 PM

Yes. And I've done it. However got a Cam code and running rich code shortly after. Probably no corelation but I haven't finished testing to see.

Originally Posted by Senseless

Couldn't you theoretcially parallel wire in a new momentary pushbutton switch, mount it in the dash and press that if the car won't start?

**LecsoS4** · 07-20-2016 10:02 AM

In normal sear position you easily push the clutch to the floor .

( And you need strong left leg)

Sent from my iPad using Audizine mobile app

**SportVier** · 07-20-2016 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by S4'ed

I bet the B9 has a revised clutch mechanism. It would be interesting to compare them...might lead to more insight to the root-cause.

Good point. I assume they will either keep the same design but move the switch position in the MC slightly or revert to an old skool pedal-position switch.

**A4Ultrasport** · 07-26-2016 04:09 PM

Quick Update.

I had the push clutch to start issue on my 2012 S4. I also had the creaky/gritty clutch pedal feel that many have reported. Both started about a year ago at 40,000 miles, and got progressively worse until I brought it to the dealer yesterday at 50,000 miles. My dealer pulled the entire transmission, and ultimately replaced the clutch disc, flywheel, bearing, k lever, ball pin, and some other misc. transmission parts. All of this was done under TSB 2022990/4, and was covered under my CPO warranty. Per my instructions, they also inspected my old clutch disc to determine how much life was left. According to my service guy, about 50% of the usable life of the clutch remained. Fortunately for me, they decided to replace the disc and flywheel under my warranty anyways.

Just wanted to pass this along, as I was under the impression my clutch had little to no usable life remaining based on what others are being told about the push clutch to start issue. Apparently the starting issue is not necessarily indicative of a worn out clutch disc.

My new components feel AWESOME. Much heavier weight to the clutch pedal, and everything is operating VERY smoothly. Feels like a brand new car.

**Thurston** · 07-26-2016 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by A4Ultrasport

Quick Update.

I had the push clutch to start issue on my 2012 S4. I also had the creaky/gritty clutch pedal feel that many have reported. Both started about a year ago at 40,000 miles, and got progressively worse until I brought it to the dealer yesterday at 50,000 miles. My dealer pulled the entire transmission, and ultimately replaced the clutch disc, flywheel, bearing, k lever, ball pin, and some other misc. transmission parts. All of this was done under TSB 2022990/4, and was covered under my CPO warranty. Per my instructions, they also inspected my old clutch disc to determine how much life was left. According to my service guy, about 50% of the usable life of the clutch remained. Fortunately for me, they decided to replace the disc and flywheel under my warranty anyways.

Just wanted to pass this along, as I was under the impression my clutch had little to no usable life remaining based on what others are being told about the push clutch to start issue. Apparently the starting issue is not necessarily indicative of a worn out clutch disc.

My new components feel AWESOME. Much heavier weight to the clutch pedal, and everything is operating VERY smoothly. Feels like a brand new car.

well that's pretty awesome of audi!