Clutch failure Audi B8.5 S4

**Sour** · 07-13-2016 09:48 AM

Stock B8.5 S4 21k miles and the clutch has failed according to the dealership. I ask them if they have photos or inspected the clutch they said they looked at it through somewhere but didn't actually take it out. Car had no signs of slippage, no chatter, is stock, the car is never launched or driven hard and half of the miles are highway. The day it stopped working the only thing out of the ordinary was an intermittent brake symbol on my cluster that lasted maybe 10 minutes about an hour and a half prior to the pedal losing pressure.

Of course the dealership wants a fist full of money and I'm not buying what they're saying.

Really unimpressed with the whole situation. I'm going to call aoa and see what they say as well.

Parts wise I did look at the ECS stage II kit they had up on their site southbend/flywheel, any other suggestions or websites to order from? Thanks

**jygesq** · 07-13-2016 09:51 AM

if it exhibiting no signs of failure get a 2nd opinion. \very very strange .

**The Fat Kid** · 07-13-2016 09:58 AM

There was no slipping or chatter, so why were they even looking at the clutch?

**Sour** · 07-13-2016 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Fat Kid

There was no slipping or chatter, so why were they even looking at the clutch?

the clutch has no pressure

**jsh139** · 07-13-2016 10:01 AM

That makes no sense.

Edit: I see now that there was at least some symptoms. Not sure what to say about the diagnosis but there are plenty of options. Eurocode, JHM, Southbend, stock OE, Sachs.

**jsh139** · 07-13-2016 10:04 AM

If the pedal lost pressure wouldn't that indicate a hydraulic problem? I would suspect the Master/Slave cylinders.

**Sour** · 07-13-2016 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by jsh139

If the pedal lost pressure wouldn't that indicate a hydraulic problem? I would suspect the Master/Slave cylinders.

At the time I felt it was an electronic issue or an issue with the pedal itself.

**The Fat Kid** · 07-13-2016 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Sour

the clutch has no pressure

I read it as the clutch died while at the dealer. Sorry, I am a little slow today

**b6onboost** · 07-13-2016 10:27 AM

Sounds like textbook clutch slave cylinder failure.

Internal seals can leak allowing fluid to move without pressurizing the hydraulic system activating the clutch. The pedal has no resistance and there doesn't even need to be an external leak. This is a warranty item. It's not expensive ($150) and yes...is made out of plastic. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...er/8k0721257a/

My guess...either the dealer is ignorant and half-assed the diagnostic or they are trying to sell you a price-gouging full clutch replacement when you really don't need one.

Get AoA involved.

**infinkc** · 07-13-2016 10:38 AM

makes sense that it is probably the master or slave that is bad and is leaking. The brake light came on cause you lost your fluid in the reservoir. I would get a second opinion on the issue, seems they are trying to rape you for a full clutch based on the symptoms.

**DOCEVG** · 07-13-2016 10:40 AM

Wouldn't a B8.5 with 21k miles still be under warranty?

**Sour** · 07-13-2016 11:50 AM

Thanks for the input guys. Just let AoA know how I feel about the situation, they said two business days so I'm looking at Monday. Going to call dealer again and ask them for notes from the Tech and see if they checked the slave cylinder.

We've owned at least 6 manual Audi over the last few years and each of them held up to at least 100k on the cutch. I'm hoping they step up and don't try and stiff me here.

For reference the dealership wants $5500 for a clutch and labor, at $4900 with a discount.

I did reach out to an independent shop here for a quote, just trying to figure out with tow, parts, and labor where I'll land.

If I were to keep it I'd probably add a tune, pully, and exhaust so I'd want a clutch that can handle that if I go the indie shop route.

**SteveYem** · 07-13-2016 11:56 AM

I'll echo everyone else and say that based on the symptoms you mentioned, this does not sound like a problem with the clutch itself. Any supporting parts of the hydraulic system definitely should be covered under warranty.

**Hofahome** · 07-13-2016 12:20 PM

Tell them to eat shit and die. You would have to be the worlds worst manual driver to wear out a clutch that quick, even on this car. But if you do replace the clutch, I am very happy with my jhm clutch on stock fw.

**Dr GP** · 07-13-2016 12:28 PM

FYI, unless the dealer is going to give you some type of allowance on the clutch replacement, it makes no sense to allow them to do it. It is NOT covered under warranty. I would first replace the clutch slave cylinder. If that does not solve your problem, I would take it to an Indie garage to have them replace the clutch assembly. Audi will not install an aftermarket clutch in your car . Plus they will charge you twice as much to do it.

**ellwood** · 07-13-2016 12:38 PM

The clutch can't be seen without dropping the transmission. There is an inspection port at the base of the bellhousing but you'd only be able to see the backside of the flywheel

**Sour** · 07-13-2016 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by ellwood

The clutch can't be seen without dropping the transmission. There is an inspection port at the base of the bellhousing but you'd only be able to see the backside of the flywheel

The shop foreman said as much when I called and asked to speak to him. He said that he'll take a microfiber camera and look for cutch wear to give me a better idea. Also that it could be a cylinder or something else but they'd have no idea till the take everything apart and it could be warrantied item in the end or it might not be.

Can they change the clutch slave cylinder without dropping the transmission right?

That said I wonder what the first diagnosis charge was for and what the quote was about?

**MrFunk** · 07-13-2016 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by infinkc

makes sense that it is probably the master or slave that is bad and is leaking. The brake light came on cause you lost your fluid in the reservoir. I would get a second opinion on the issue, seems they are trying to rape you for a full clutch based on the symptoms.

Originally Posted by b6onboost

Sounds like textbook clutch slave cylinder failure.

Internal seals can leak allowing fluid to move without pressurizing the hydraulic system activating the clutch. The pedal has no resistance and there doesn't even need to be an external leak. This is a warranty item. It's not expensive ($150) and yes...is made out of plastic. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...er/8k0721257a/

My guess...either the dealer is ignorant and half-assed the diagnostic or they are trying to sell you a price-gouging full clutch replacement when you really don't need one.

Get AoA involved.

^^
I echo this.
If you had a brake warning light then it makes even more sense.

**SportVier** · 07-13-2016 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Sour

For reference the dealership wants $5500 for a clutch and labor, at $4900 with a discount.

That's way too high, even if they are including a new flywheel, which you definitely don't need at 20k. List/book should be closer to $3200 for doing the clutch alone. And they have plenty of room to come down from there. A good tech can do a clutch in 8-9 hours. Book has it at 12. Good luck.

**ellwood** · 07-14-2016 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sour

The shop foreman said as much when I called and asked to speak to him. He said that he'll take a microfiber camera and look for cutch wear to give me a better idea. Also that it could be a cylinder or something else but they'd have no idea till the take everything apart and it could be warrantied item in the end or it might not be.

Can they change the clutch slave cylinder without dropping the transmission right?

That said I wonder what the first diagnosis charge was for and what the quote was about?

The slave can be changed easily since it's just bolted to the side of the transmission. Even with a small camera, the clutch friciton disk is sandwiched between the flywheel and the pressure plate so you can't see it. Check out the install instructions for the ECS tuning lightweight flywheel on their website, the PDF shows detailed pics of the entire clutch module

**S4'ed** · 07-14-2016 09:15 AM

By "clutch failure" , you mean the clutch pedal has no resistance...or stays on the floor when depressed?

Your symptoms clearly indicate a failed master cylinder, or the slave cylinder. Both are relatively easy replacements, that don't require the transmission removal....(sounds like your dealer is aiming to rip-you-off, with an unneeded full clutch-job......run away.)

There is really nothing you can see in the "Inspection Port" on the bell-housing. It is only there to have wrench access to loosen the bolts that hold the pressure plate to the drive plate.

**SteveYem** · 07-14-2016 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by S4'ed

By "clutch failure" , you mean the clutch pedal has no resistance...or stays on the floor when depressed?

Your symptoms clearly indicate a failed master cylinder, or the slave cylinder. Both are relatively easy replacements, that don't require the transmission removal....(sounds like your dealer is aiming to rip-you-off, with an unneeded full clutch-job......run away.)

There is really nothing you can see in the "Inspection Port" on the bell-housing. It is only there to have wrench access to loosen the bolts that hold the pressure plate to the drive plate.

I agree it doesn't sound like a clutch failure, but shouldn't the master and/or slave cylinder be covered under warranty? Sure it's a supporting component of the clutch function, but it's not something that the user can "abuse" like the clutch itself or brake pads/rotors.

**S4'ed** · 07-14-2016 12:43 PM

The Slave and Master Cyl should be covered under warrantee : they are not "Wear Items" (Clutch disc, pressure plate, brake pads, brake discs, tires).

**b6onboost** · 07-14-2016 01:58 PM

Get AoA involved.

If the dealer 'has no idea' what the root of the problem is, whether it will be warrantied or not, why are they pushing a $5k clutch replacement? Why are they charging you diagnostic fees?

Your car is under warranty. Your clutch didn't wear out, it randomly failed, and flashed a brake light. They should investigate the issue(s) and once they know what it is tell you if the replacement is warrantied or not. This is on them to figure out. If it does turn out to actually be the clutch, push AoA hard for a goodwill replacement. As you've stated, you've owned 6 Manual Audis and none of their clutches failed prior to 100k...this one (may have) at 21k...which is absurd.

Originally Posted by Sour

The shop foreman said as much when I called and asked to speak to him. He said that he'll take a microfiber camera and look for cutch wear to give me a better idea. Also that it could be a cylinder or something else but they'd have no idea till the take everything apart and it could be warrantied item in the end or it might not be.

Can they change the clutch slave cylinder without dropping the transmission right?

That said I wonder what the first diagnosis charge was for and what the quote was about?

**AKPS4** · 07-15-2016 05:15 AM

I'm gonna say dealer f'd it up during a "test drive" that they did not need to go on.

**Sour** · 07-15-2016 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by b6onboost

Get AoA involved.

If the dealer 'has no idea' what the root of the problem is, whether it will be warrantied or not, why are they pushing a $5k clutch replacement? Why are they charging you diagnostic fees?

Your car is under warranty. Your clutch didn't wear out, it randomly failed, and flashed a brake light. They should investigate the issue(s) and once they know what it is tell you if the replacement is warrantied or not. This is on them to figure out. If it does turn out to actually be the clutch, push AoA hard for a goodwill replacement. As you've stated, you've owned 6 Manual Audis and none of their clutches failed prior to 100k...this one (may have) at 21k...which is absurd.

I called AOA on Wednesday and have called them again today.

It makes no sense to me. They clearly didn't diagnose anything the first time all they did was generate a quote and bill me.

I called dealership again today and I feel that I got the run around again today. I can tell they don't want to deal with me.

The car is under warranty idk why they're charging/trying to charge me for diagnostics that in at least one case wasn't even done. I agree with you completely. That's what I'm pushing AOA to do.

Also Audi roadside left me stranded for 3 hours when this originally occurred and it was due to their errors. First time they didn't dispatch a tow, then tow dispatched to the wrong location twice, another tow truck supposedly broke down.

**JustPlaneChris** · 07-15-2016 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sour

...tow truck supposedly broke down.

Maybe it had an S4 clutch in it.

All jokes aside, I hope you get this taken care of. It makes me nervous about my car!

**Sour** · 07-15-2016 06:35 PM

Dealership is saying the cylinder is fully extended and they see springs fully extended on clutch/pressure plat, therefore the clutch is done and replacing cylinder won't fix anything.

Dealer said to talk to AoA about goodwill as it exceeds amount they will cover.

AoA said wait another two business days now. AoA trying to say it's wear and tear item and that's it but give them more time. Going into a full week without a resolution now.

I'll let you guys know what happens in the end. All I've had are people reading off of a script to me so far.

From the looks of things I guess my brand loyalty hasn't been worth much, well at least obviously not defective clutch on the 50k+ car I've bought new. Wow.

**Hofahome** · 07-15-2016 09:35 PM

I feel for you man. Really, that sucks. Try bringing up your past Audi's and say your brand loyalty is waning because a clutch should not go out on an audi with 21k miles. Drop a hint that the bmw 4 series doesn't seem to have clutch issues and maybe you will look into one in the future. but if they really won't cover it, just upgrade the clutch.

**dansjuice** · 07-15-2016 10:06 PM

Dude, I had my clutch replaced at 17k. Audi paid half. I'm no pro at driving and may have burnt the clutch several times but I couldn't believe it needed to be replaced. There were no previous signs before. It just started slipping every time I would try to quickly throttle in 1-4. I've read so many problems with the clutch then I read the pros who get 100k out a clutch and I'm like WTF. I'm curious to see a poll of how many people have had prolems with their clutch. The system isn't a traditional clutch changed I believe in 2012.. I've read that in stop in go you can burn the clutch super quick. I guess in first your not supposed to throttle the gas at all and just let the clutch auto rev and engage. When in traffic I've altered my driving technique to this...

**Sour** · 07-18-2016 10:52 AM

They've now offered to pay half. I still feel that is not enough. Will update later today.

**SportVier** · 07-18-2016 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by dansjuice

I've read that in stop in go you can burn the clutch super quick. I guess in first your not supposed to throttle the gas at all and just let the clutch auto rev and engage. When in traffic I've altered my driving technique to this...

You read this where?

I've read that the Chupacabra comes in the night and eats goats and small children. I've now taken to locking my goats and small children in the barn at night.

**Victor Newman** · 07-18-2016 02:02 PM

Similar story here. Had my clutch pedal intermittently go "sticky." It would never stay at the floor or anything, but coming back up, it would be so slow sometimes. I could pump the pedal rigorously and it would free up just fine, and every once in a while, it would get sticky again. Took it to the dealer and they said I needed a new throw-out bearing. They replaced it under warranty, pulling the trans out, and there was no change whatsoever. Took it back in with the same problem, and they said you need a new clutch - it's worn out, and gave me a quote for about $4K. I told them no thanks.

That was about 15,000 miles ago and I've got no clutch slip giving it full throttle in 4th gear at 70mph on the highway (a quick and dirty little test an engine building buddy of mine told me to try - simulating maximum engine torque and maximum resistance through poor gear selection). Every time it goes sticky, I just pump it rigorously a few times, and I'm good to go for a few more days. The Audi dealer told me it was the pressure plate springs worn out, but didn't have an explanation of how I could "pump" life back into the springs with the clutch pedal if the springs are worn out. I'm no mechanic, but I'm not sure some of the Audi service departments know what they're doing either, so they just throw out "you need a new clutch" and hope you just say OK.

**jlaudio** · 07-18-2016 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Victor Newman

Similar story here. Had my clutch pedal intermittently go "sticky." It would never stay at the floor or anything, but coming back up, it would be so slow sometimes. I could pump the pedal rigorously and it would free up just fine, and every once in a while, it would get sticky again. Took it to the dealer and they said I needed a new throw-out bearing. They replaced it under warranty, pulling the trans out, and there was no change whatsoever. Took it back in with the same problem, and they said you need a new clutch - it's worn out, and gave me a quote for about $4K. I told them no thanks.

That was about 15,000 miles ago and I've got no clutch slip giving it full throttle in 4th gear at 70mph on the highway (a quick and dirty little test an engine building buddy of mine told me to try - simulating maximum engine torque and maximum resistance through poor gear selection). Every time it goes sticky, I just pump it rigorously a few times, and I'm good to go for a few more days. The Audi dealer told me it was the pressure plate springs worn out, but didn't have an explanation of how I could "pump" life back into the springs with the clutch pedal if the springs are worn out. I'm no mechanic, but I'm not sure some of the Audi service departments know what they're doing either, so they just throw out "you need a new clutch" and hope you just say OK.

I've had the same experience and it still happens to this day. The classic mushy pedal feel and the return from the floor is slow. Pump it a few times and i'm good to go. It almost feels like i'm bleeding something and removing air from the lines when i sit and pump the pedal..

I figure i'll just drive like it is until the car stops moving forward. Clutch seems to grab fine and does not slip. Just about to hit 63k.

**evanb** · 07-18-2016 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by SportVier

You read this where?

I've read that the Chupacabra comes in the night and eats goats and small children. I've now taken to locking my goats and small children in the barn at night.

It's not nice to lock your children up in the barn.

**JustPlaneChris** · 07-18-2016 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by jlaudio

I've had the same experience and it still happens to this day. The classic mushy pedal feel and the return from the floor is slow. Pump it a few times and i'm good to go. It almost feels like i'm bleeding something and removing air from the lines when i sit and pump the pedal..

I figure i'll just drive like it is until the car stops moving forward. Clutch seems to grab fine and does not slip. Just about to hit 63k.

I wonder if this behavior could be related to the pressure valve that is discussed in this thread?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...all-6MT-owners

**Victor Newman** · 07-18-2016 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by jlaudio

I've had the same experience and it still happens to this day. The classic mushy pedal feel and the return from the floor is slow. Pump it a few times and i'm good to go. It almost feels like i'm bleeding something and removing air from the lines when i sit and pump the pedal..

I figure i'll just drive like it is until the car stops moving forward. Clutch seems to grab fine and does not slip. Just about to hit 63k.

yep, over 78,000 miles here. do you have the aftermarket line that deletes the delay valve? juat curious, as i was thinking about doing this anyway to improve feel, but would like to know if this definitely isn't the problem so i can check out other possible causes while i'm poking around

**Victor Newman** · 07-18-2016 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by JustPlaneChris

I wonder if this behavior could be related to the pressure valve that is discussed in this thread?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...all-6MT-owners

that's what i was thinking

**jlaudio** · 07-18-2016 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Victor Newman

yep, over 78,000 miles here. do you have the aftermarket line that deletes the delay valve? juat curious, as i was thinking about doing this anyway to improve feel, but would like to know if this definitely isn't the problem so i can check out other possible causes while i'm poking around

i don't have it yet but i have been following that thread and the technical discussion thread on the clutch replacement issues for months and have suspected that valve could be the issue. i don't have the time or access to a garage to install the line and from quoted times its expensive for the swap. around $500.

i would really like to solve the issue because i feel like my clutch is all over the place on 1-2 shifting and engagement