ATM Fluid and filter change safe?

[xXxREBELOxXx]

What's up guys I have a 2002 tip a4 quattro with roughly 215,000 kms on it and I'm guessing that the fluid has never been changed so I naturally want to do it, but I've heard of horror stories about trannies breaking down after a change with high mileage. I also heard that this usually only affects older cars or american ones mostly so I'm not exactly sure if I should go for it. Now I know auto's slip naturally but mine acts kinda like a cvt and holds an rpm while the speedo climes, so I highly doubt this is normal and I know the atf in there is broken down and not doing any justice at all. My transmission act just fine, no hard shifts, delays, or trouble shifting from P through RNDS but I haven't tried tip mode because my rubber cover is stuck and the little magnet attached to it isn't there to let the car know I'm in tip mode. So as far as it goes I don't need to change the fluid and I would hate for that to stir something up. I am not doing a flush or a complete change in fluids, just a drain drop the pan, change the filter and then put it back on and fill it with fresh fluid. Or I might just do a drain and fill, but I'm not sure what to do or if I should do anything really. Anyways guys go ahead and drop those ideas down there for me, thanks .

[diagnosticator]

There is absolutely NO merit to the claims that changing the ATF will cause problems with the transmission. It is beyond bizarre the reasons alleged to support these nonsense claims. These ridiculous claims are not supported by any true technical facts involved and cannot be justified by the pseudo facts alleged to support the illogical reasons offered to explain the assertions made.

It's possible that the trans is already worn out due to the lack of timely ATF changes. If that is the case a fluid change now won't undo the excess wear that has occurred, or stop the slipping you think may be happening. The only remedy for that is to rebuild the trans or replace it with a lower milage good used trans. If you are not sure the trans is actually slipping, or if the slipping is very minor, changing the ATF and filter is worthwhile anyway. Use Pentosin ATF-1 fluid. Besides OEM fluid Pentosin ATF-1 is on the ZF approved fluids list and is fully synthetic. Most non OEM fluids are not approved. Then after driving for a few days, change the ATF again. Doing this will remove most of the old contaminated worn out ATF from the trans. A single drain/refill won't get all the old ATF out because a lot is trapped in the torque converter.

Draining the existing ATF and noticing the smell and appearance, will be very helpful determining the condition of the trans. If the old ATF smells rancid and burned, then the clutches in the trans are slipping a lot and causing excessive friction heating of the ATF. If the ATF smells burnt, plan on finding a good used replacement trans asap.

You must have VCDS and a complete understanding of how to refill the ATF properly in order to refill the trans with the correct amount of new fluid. If you need to, ask about this here or refer to the ZF 5HP19 parts list and service instructions available online from ZF.

BTW, the claim by Audi and ZF that the original factory fill of ATF is a lifetime fill and never needs to be changed, really means the lifetime is only until the trans fails from lack of maintenance. The ATF should be changed every 40K to 50K miles from new.

[xXxREBELOxXx]

Thanks for the input and clearing the fog for me, I will have to see if I can find the dipstick (if there is one) and check the condition of the fluid. If it is still red-ish and and doesn't smell burnt then I will change the fluid and filter and then change the fluid a few k down the road to remove the rest of the grime. I also understand that if the atf is dirty then the valve bodies are likely dirty too so fresh fluid can clean the valve body passage ways and form a clog as the gunk is disturbed in there. So I will try to change it a little bit at a time so the transmission cleans itself out gradually. Thanks again for the detailed and helpful response!

[diagnosticator]

There is no dipstick. The approved fluids are only naturally colored there is no dye in the ATF, unless the fluid was changed using a non approved ATF. Any dirt removed from parts should be filtered by the filter or settle to the bottom of the pan. There are a couple of magnets in the pan to hold metallic particles, and you will find a lot of wear material in the pan.

[xXxREBELOxXx]

Damn I just went to go check 5 minutes ago and didn't find one so that sucks, how do I check the fluid then? Do I take out the fill nut and bring out the turkey baster?

[diagnosticator]

The only way to "check" the fluid is by draining it from the trans pan.

[xXxREBELOxXx]

Ah man I dont like the idea of finding black fluid and then needing to rebuild my trans.

[diagnosticator]

Ignoring the problem won't make it any better. If the fluid is burned, refill to the correct level using the required procedure and look for a replacement used trans or schedule a rebuild.

[diagnosticator]

I recommend having a ZF qualified trans shop evaluate the fluid condition and will be able to advise you according to the findings and any symptoms occuring.

[Charles.waite]

Lets start this over.

WHY do you want to change the fluid? Just because? or are you experiencing issues?

Changing the fluid alone won't lead to rebuilding the trans. The fluid is likely already dark and nasty, but the color, in and of itself, is sort of irrelevant. If you really want to check it, you can loosen the fill plug really slowly, but not remove it. Just loosen it until fluid seeps around the plug and then you can see what it looks like. But at 215,000kms I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that a fluid change will do your transmission a LOT of good. A filter change as well.

What you should do:
1) Buy however many liters of 5hp19 compatible ATF as you need (what is it, like 5L capacity??)
2) Buy new trans filter and gasket
3) Make sure you have, or can borrow a Ross-Tech VCDS tool
4) Drain fluid
5) Pull pan
6) clean pan and magnets
7) Replace pan
8) Pump in fluid following the specific guide on here where you closely monitor temps (helps to have a helper for this)
9) drink beer

And as diagnosticator said, don't trust a mechanic who says that changing the ATF will be bad for the tranny. That is completly false.

[customa4]

Lets start this over.

WHY do you want to change the fluid? Just because? or are you experiencing issues?

Changing the fluid alone won't lead to rebuilding the trans. The fluid is likely already dark and nasty, but the color, in and of itself, is sort of irrelevant. If you really want to check it, you can loosen the fill plug really slowly, but not remove it. Just loosen it until fluid seeps around the plug and then you can see what it looks like. But at 215,000kms I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that a fluid change will do your transmission a LOT of good. A filter change as well.

What you should do:
1) Buy however many liters of 5hp19 compatible ATF as you need (what is it, like 5L capacity??)
2) Buy new trans filter and gasket
3) Make sure you have, or can borrow a Ross-Tech VCDS tool
4) Drain fluid
5) Pull pan
6) clean pan and magnets
7) Replace pan
8) Pump in fluid following the specific guide on here where you closely monitor temps (helps to have a helper for this)
9) drink beer

And as diagnosticator said, don't trust a mechanic who says that changing the ATF will be bad for the tranny. That is completly false.

This^^

[diagnosticator]

OP stated the trans is likely slipping. Based on the conversation, I had the impression the tasks required where not within the OP's skills and capabilities, so made the recommendation to seek advise from a qualified trans shop.

[Charles.waite]

OP stated the trans is likely slipping. Based on the conversation, I had the impression the tasks required where not within the OP's skills and capabilities, so made the recommendation to seek advise from a qualified trans shop.

Bah! You don't expect me to fully read posts do you? Jeeze louise!

[customa4]

OP stated the trans is likely slipping. Based on the conversation, I had the impression the tasks required where not within the OP's skills and capabilities, so made the recommendation to seek advise from a qualified trans shop.

Not a bad idea either, especially if the trans is slipping. Fluid will probably not fix the problem.

Bah! You don't expect me to fully read posts do you? Jeeze louise!

Guilty as well.

[diagnosticator]

Bah! You don't expect me to fully read posts do you? Jeeze louise!

Yeah, sometimes advise can be difficult to provide, given the limited information usually provided.

[john_gonzo]

Rebel, here's a link to A8 trans fluid service details. A4 is similar. This should help answer some of the many questions you likely have right now.

A8 auto trans fluid service

[19jdog]

When I had my tip trans, I used this diy. Worked flawlessly!!!!

YO click here!

[xXxREBELOxXx]

Wow guys I did not expect the thread to get this many replies, it leaves a big smile on my face seeing everyone pitch in with their knowledge! So thanks guys first off. Ok so the main reason I was hesitant to even dare changing the fluid was because if the clutch pack was worn down to the point where the grit in the fluid was the only thing keeping it from slipping under lock up, than putting in new fluid may let it slip (from what I've heard). Now I'm aware of how safe it actually is to change your atf, so I think along with the many things I need to do I will put this one on the list, now I am 17 (I know 17 with an audi) so I don't have a bunch of cash or tools really so if I need to do a rebuild than I'm in a creek without a paddle. Anyways I don't know everything especially because I only had the car for 3-4 months now, so that's why I came to Audizine, the place where people know their Audi's. Thanks again guys and I will be sure to get a change underway as soon as I get all the materials on hand. Sorry for my bad grammar and if I don't make much sense, I blame it on 24 hours of no sleep lol! Cheers guys!

[xXxREBELOxXx]

One more thing guys, the car only seems to slip when in lower gears with moderate throttle (btw let me know if you guys had a similar experience in your b6 a4 tip) but mostly noticable in 3rd gear but in 5th when lock up happens its as solid as a rock. So I'm thinking it is the fluid that is causing the slip not being able to transfer the energy in the torque converter as well as it should.

[customa4]

One more thing guys, the car only seems to slip when in lower gears with moderate throttle (btw let me know if you guys had a similar experience in your b6 a4 tip) but mostly noticable in 3rd gear but in 5th when lock up happens its as solid as a rock. So I'm thinking it is the fluid that is causing the slip not being able to transfer the energy in the torque converter as well as it should.

I had a CVT transmission so it's obviously different but from what I've been told, once it starts slipping, you're fuc***. I changed the fluid after mine was slipping and it didn't help anything.

[diagnosticator]

One more thing guys, the car only seems to slip when in lower gears with moderate throttle (btw let me know if you guys had a similar experience in your b6 a4 tip) but mostly noticable in 3rd gear but in 5th when lock up happens its as solid as a rock. So I'm thinking it is the fluid that is causing the slip not being able to transfer the energy in the torque converter as well as it should.

Fluid quality does not effect the torque converter's ability to operate properly it is purely hydraulic. The torque converter clutch locks up after the 1>2 upshift normally, and is often felt as like an extra upshift right after the 1>2 upshift. It is very possible the TC clutch is slipping not the clutch packs in the transmission that engage and disengage in different combinations to change trans gear ratios. The transmission gear ratio will effect the amount of torque being transmitted depending on the gear ratio currently engaged, and will effect the TC clutch slip. Slip can occur in both the TC clutch and gear clutch packs too. The TC clutch normally operates in three modes, Open or disengaged, Controlled slip, and Closed, or locked up, depending on driving conditions.

[JoeR6]

I had a CVT transmission so it's obviously different but from what I've been told, once it starts slipping, you're fuc***. I changed the fluid after mine was slipping and it didn't help anything.

My ZF 5sp tip on my A4 1.8T Quattro was slipping about 8 months ago (had about 60k miles on it). I did the ATF flush with OEM fluid and it did stop the slipping and shifted smoother (no more kicking on downshifts when coming to a stop.)

However, fast forward to today (71k miles) and the tranny was spewing its tranny fluid through the prop shaft seal.
Found out that ATF was making it past seal b/w tranny and torsen housing. Replaced seal b/w Torsen housing and tranny (the old one was chewed up) along with prop shaft seal and topped off ATF fluid (and gear oil for prop shaft section.)
Day later and ATF fluid started spewing out of one of the gaskets on the tranny that is forward of the prop shaft. New seal b/w Torsen Housing and tranny was again chewed up.

Currently swapping out my tranny for another used one (unfortunately the used one has more miles but comes with 1 yr warranty.)

[seanf86]

I like the Blauparts kit for filter and fluid, Ravenol makes a good product, the "slipping" you are feeling might be the torque converter partially locking as it does sometimes. Both cars I've done fluid changes in the trans shifted fine however the fluid was extremely black however it didnt stink, thousands of KM later still no issues.

[diagnosticator]

My ZF 5sp tip on my A4 1.8T Quattro was slipping about 8 months ago (had about 60k miles on it). I did the ATF flush with OEM fluid and it did stop the slipping and shifted smoother (no more kicking on downshifts when coming to a stop.)

However, fast forward to today (71k miles) and the tranny was spewing its tranny fluid through the prop shaft seal.
Found out that ATF was making it past seal b/w tranny and torsen housing. Replaced seal b/w Torsen housing and tranny (the old one was chewed up) along with prop shaft seal and topped off ATF fluid (and gear oil for prop shaft section.)
Day later and ATF fluid started spewing out of one of the gaskets on the tranny that is forward of the prop shaft. New seal b/w Torsen Housing and tranny was again chewed up.

Currently swapping out my tranny for another used one (unfortunately the used one has more miles but comes with 1 yr warranty.)

There must be something wrong in the trans to chew up seals like that, something worn out or broken.

[JoeR6]

There must be something wrong in the trans to chew up seals like that, something worn out or broken.

My indy mechanic mentioned that the shaft (not the prop shaft) that goes into the torsen housing is supposed to have some freeplay (move up/down; side to side slightly), but mine was locked in place. (I'm not 100% sure that is what he said as I was still trying to digest the fact I had to pay for a new tranny.) He thought that is what was chewing up that seal b.w torsen housing and tranny. I guess we'll never know w/o opening it up.

Saw my old tranny on the dolly headed for the scrap yard as I picked up my car today. So far she runs fine with the 2nd hand tranny in there.

[xXxREBELOxXx]

Fluid quality does not effect the torque converter's ability to operate properly it is purely hydraulic. The torque converter clutch locks up after the 1>2 upshift normally, and is often felt as like an extra upshift right after the 1>2 upshift. It is very possible the TC clutch is slipping not the clutch packs in the transmission that engage and disengage in different combinations to change trans gear ratios. The transmission gear ratio will effect the amount of torque being transmitted depending on the gear ratio currently engaged, and will effect the TC clutch slip. Slip can occur in both the TC clutch and gear clutch packs too. The TC clutch normally operates in three modes, Open or disengaged, Controlled slip, and Closed, or locked up, depending on driving conditions.

So do you think the tc is in a controlled slip mode or open mode to avoid downshifting? I normally drive economically so the tcm has learned to save gas and not downshifting does go hand and hand with economy.

[diagnosticator]

So do you think the tc is in a controlled slip mode or open mode to avoid downshifting? I normally drive economically so the tcm has learned to save gas and not downshifting does go hand and hand with economy.

The TC clutch is locked up as much as possible for improved fuel economy. It does not unlock between gear shifts above 2nd gear. Controlled slip is a sub mode and only used in certain situations. When you accelerate in any gear 2nd through 5th, if the TC clutch is slipping, it won't be any different than a gear ratio clutch slipping. The RPM will flare until load and torque are reduced. Slipping of any clutch in the trans, when excessive and uncontrolled, is caused by clutch lining wear, fluid contamination, etc. Once malfunctional slipping begins, the clutches and fluid overheat and the clutch friction surfaces get glazed increasing slipping.

[Charles.waite]

So you're saying they're not supposed to slip. I think we understand that. But when worn, they DO slip. Which is what is being discussed here I think. Evo_ski has battled this a bit with him transmission. When wear builds up and you're tuned, the tranny just can't effectively deal with the elevated power levels and will "slip", even in gears above 2nd. I've witnessed it firsthand in his car.

[diagnosticator]

So you're saying they're not supposed to slip. I think we understand that. But when worn, they DO slip. Which is what is being discussed here I think. Evo_ski has battled this a bit with him transmission. When wear builds up and you're tuned, the tranny just can't effectively deal with the elevated power levels and will "slip", even in gears above 2nd. I've witnessed it firsthand in his car.

My description of clutch slippage and the conditions that occurs either normally or as a malfunction, is very basic and omits a lot details of functional slip that is designed to occur during various driving situations. For example, viewing the MVBs in the TCU while driving, will show subtle interrelationships between slip in percent that is variable with differing driving conditions.

One problem with tuned ECUs and tip transmissions, is when the engine torque value is not scaled properly with the increase engine performance and the TCU does not receive the right instantaneous engine torque required to adjust the transmission system pressure according to engine load, this will cause undesired excessive clutch slip and can exceed the capability of the trans to transmit the actual torque produced with minimum clutch slip. This is often not done right because tuners assume a manual trans and don't want to expend tuning time and effort on unused ECU applications. Uncompensated engine torque from an incomplete ECU tune negatively effects gear shift strategy, clutch engagement speeds and shift points.

The percentage of TC clutch slip can be determined by logging then graphing and comparing the trans input shaft RPM and the output shaft RPM adjusted for the gear ratio engaged, and the TC clutch mode, closed, controlled/programed slip and open according to driving conditions and gear ratio. The drive voltage current value applied to the system pressure regulation solenoid can be evaluated comparing the specification current value in Amps, with the driving conditions. If the ATF temp exceeds a specific value, the system pressure will be increased to eliminate as much clutch slip as possible regardless of driving conditions and TC clutch and trans gear ratio clutch activation. With the TCU malfunctioning the trans is locked in 4th gear mechanical mode, with an open TC clutch.

[Charles.waite]

Ahh okay, I follow your explanation and it seems we're both more or less on the same page but I really appreciate the detail in your explanation. Makes perfect sense how the TCU can't quite resolve how to manage the increased torque and power from a tuned ECU. Especially if the ECU tuning isn't sending the TCU proper torque values.

I wonder how thorough APR's tuning is regarding Tiptronic operation...

[xXxREBELOxXx]

I think the tc clutch is worn then, in that case I'd rather do a manual swap if I'm dropping the transmission. Anyone hear about swapping in the 6spd from the 05 models?

[JoeR6]

One problem with tuned ECUs and tip transmissions, is when the engine torque value is not scaled properly with the increase engine performance and the TCU does not receive the right instantaneous engine torque required to adjust the transmission system pressure according to engine load, this will cause undesired excessive clutch slip and can exceed the capability of the trans to transmit the actual torque produced with minimum clutch slip. This is often not done right because tuners assume a manual trans and don't want to expend tuning time and effort on unused ECU applications. Uncompensated engine torque from an incomplete ECU tune negatively effects gear shift strategy, clutch engagement speeds and shift points.

This may explain why my 5speed auto lunched itself. I have an APR stage 1 tune and I wonder if the tranny wasn't up to the task of handling the extra power.

[diagnosticator]

This may explain why my 5speed auto lunched itself. I have an APR stage 1 tune and I wonder if the tranny wasn't up to the task of handling the extra power.

APR stage 1 is not enough power to exceed the torque capacity of the tip trans, normally. If the trans fluid was not replaced occasionally, that would reduce the torque capacity of the trans leading to failure. APR did not coordinate the shift points of the trans for the increased torque output and that can also provoke trans failure.