Dragway Last Night: Deja Vu?

**importraceram** · 07-09-2016 06:39 AM

Went to NED last night to get a few runs in. Conditions were decent for July, DA was ~1000. Best run was against a 335i that barely edged me out. If my tune was on point I'm positive I would have shown him my tails for sure. Before anyone talks about track prep and conditions, there was a stock B8.5 S4 6MT that ran 13.1@106.

Here's the run against the 335, I'm #620

So this is the same old story from my other 1/4 threads right? I should log, make sure my car is running correctly. But wait there's this... I went down to EPL a couple Tuesday's ago on account of previous questional 1/4mile times. Car was on the dyno for ~4hrs getting logged and custom tweaked. Turns out the logs looked fantastic as per Tony's observation and the car ended up making 397whp on his mustang dyno. 397whp with a 107mph trap!?!? Hmmm.

What gives?

Edit: forgot to mention last time I went to NED, ran a 12.5@107, I was on the boat anchor peelers. Last night I was on the super lightweight bathursts. Didn't seem to help...

**Whitee** · 07-09-2016 06:50 AM

What was the temp while running there? Did u let the car cool before running or was it heat soaked?

What was done to the 335? Trap seems pretty low for the both of you l.

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**ShopVac** · 07-09-2016 07:03 AM

Looks like you snoozed on the start :)

My 335xi was able to run low 12's with just a JB4, intake, DP, exhaust, BOV and an E85 mix. Haven't taken the S4 out yet...but it'd be nice to see how they compare.

**Loe** · 07-09-2016 07:05 AM

I'm curious of your IAT's, where you started, and where you ended up with.

**bhvrdr** · 07-09-2016 07:07 AM

Sure something is off but logging is the only way you're going to find out what is off. A car can behave one way on the dyno on a given day and another way on the street. I'd log under similar conditions as u our 1/4 mile run. You'll get it sorted bur you need to do the diagnostics.

Mike

**doug97gxe** · 07-09-2016 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by ShopVac

Looks like you snoozed on the start :)

My 335xi was able to run low 12's with just a JB4, intake, DP, exhaust, BOV and an E85 mix. Haven't taken the S4 out yet...but it'd be nice to see how they compare.

335 looks like it Red lighted

**BlownOne** · 07-09-2016 07:10 AM

Something is way off...your mph is about equal to a stock ecu car. Either you're using terrible gas (even then you should still mph better) or epl is selling pipe dreams. Also your dyno numbers seem high for stage2, especially on a mustang and the mph ran reflects it. If you had a flash cable you should have switched to the stock file to compare et/mph.

**Loe** · 07-09-2016 07:19 AM

Also...

Something is off on the back half of the 1/4mile, you are only gaining 21.15mph, which indicates to me some timing pull, high IAT's, or a combination of both.

**awwturbo** · 07-09-2016 07:24 AM

I should have went with you last night and we could have run the exact same numbers...

If you want to log your car sometime hit me up. It'll probably end up looking the same as mine when I logged it. I'm not bringing my car back to the track until I get my Coldfront system in. Hopefully it'll show up in the next couple weeks.

But I bet the IAT are shooting up at the higher rpms and causing the timing to be pulled.

**colby7** · 07-09-2016 07:50 AM

I run faster than that in my EPL-tuned Q5.

**hodrosS42001** · 07-09-2016 07:51 AM

EPL cars seems to be great until they get to the track and they're slow as hell.

**Sailingtime** · 07-09-2016 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by hodrosS42001

EPL cars seems to be great until they get to the track and they're slow as hell.

Maybe it's EPL gate!!

**evil35r** · 07-09-2016 09:27 AM

I had a evo x with a gt35r kit on it 535awhp that ran consistent 10.5s my s4 feels slightly slower and I am epl stage 1 update highly doubt epl stage 2 is running that slow. Take into account track time etc.I need to run my car to prove this point for everyone's sanity. It might just be the car some cars are just alot faster than others. Also he has no supporting mods in his sig. Intake exhaust?

**Hofahome** · 07-09-2016 09:32 AM

I doubt Tony has a crap tune and is just turning up the numbers on the dyno. Something is off and I wonder if it is bleeding boost. I feel sorry for you man, must be frustrating. I bet logging will show the culprit.

**waxxonMTL** · 07-09-2016 09:46 AM

I had a 650whp Skyline GTR before.. and after the last revision 07/06 form tony.. my 0-100 ALMOST feel the same dyno butt than my ultra powerful GTR.. so maybe you didn't flashed the last revision ?

**Tony@EPL** · 07-09-2016 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Loe

Also...

Something is off on the back half of the 1/4mile, you are only gaining 21.15mph, which indicates to me some timing pull, high IAT's, or a combination of both.

My guess by pass related to IAT. The car had no issues with a 2 gear pull on the dyno and 60-130 'd faster then cars with much more power. This car came in making more power then the apr car we retuned the day prior.
Is

**Tony@EPL** · 07-09-2016 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by hodrosS42001

EPL cars seems to be great until they get to the track and they're slow as hell.

We have the 3rd quickest stage 1 car, the 2nd quickest stage 2 (was #1 when it was run) and the 3rd/4th quickest over all (was the quickest stock blower car when it was run).... No to mention the 2nd quickest Q5 and hopefully this week the quickest Q7.

Not sure if call any of that slow...

**Loe** · 07-09-2016 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Tony@EPL

My guess by pass related to IAT. The car had no issues with a 2 gear pull on the dyno and 60-130 'd faster then cars with much more power. This car came in making more power then the apr car we retuned the day prior.
Is

Good point

Importraceram, it wouldn't hurt to take up the offer in the VCDS tool from awwturbo and send logs Tony.

**k9lovr** · 07-09-2016 01:22 PM

That 60' is not great either which would help with the time on the top end but would not account for the lack MPH

**chet.rowles** · 07-09-2016 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tony@EPL

We have the 3rd quickest stage 1 car, the 2nd quickest stage 2 (was #1 when it was run) and the 3rd/4th quickest over all (was the quickest stock blower car when it was run).... No to mention the 2nd quickest Q5 and hopefully this week the quickest Q7.

Not sure if call any of that slow...

I ran 12.9 @ 109.6 on a stage 1 EPL tune. At 2900ft DA, in Texas, in mid summer. I assure you, the power is there at the track. There is something wrong with this dude's car. Which sucks.

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**chet.rowles** · 07-09-2016 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by hodrosS42001

EPL cars seems to be great until they get to the track and they're slow as hell.

I ran 12.9 @ 109.6 on a stage 1 EPL tune. At 2900ft DA, in Texas, in mid summer. I assure you, the power is there at the track. There is something wrong with this dude's car. Which sucks.
This was before the 7/6 update. I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind the car will be dramatically faster.

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**chet.rowles** · 07-09-2016 01:31 PM

How are you staging OP? deep? Shallow? This could represent a MPH pretty easy at the big end.

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**derek.kritz** · 07-09-2016 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by hodrosS42001

EPL cars seems to be great until they get to the track and they're slow as hell.

Don't know why everyone thinks EPL cars run slow at the track....been proven false numerous times...anyway people always want to hate. The guys over at Audirevolution act like Tony and his crew murdered their whole family. That much hate for some reason. This one cat Simko I think??? Jesus what a tool. Defiantly got picked on as a child. Don't even think half of them have S4's either.
Leo will go and try to provide new information on the platform and the duel pulley and douchbag are just cutting on the B8. Anyway, sorry for the rant.
Back to the time...u on stock cooling?

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**derek.kritz** · 07-09-2016 01:43 PM

Sorry dbl post

**hckymstr19** · 07-09-2016 03:02 PM

Just a quick question would high iats cause you to lose power on its own or would it cause something secondary to happen which would cause you to lose power like open bypass or pull timing?

**xpoweruk** · 07-09-2016 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by hckymstr19

Just a quick question would high iats cause you to lose power on its own or would it cause something secondary to happen which would cause you to lose power like open bypass or pull timing?

High IATs will cause timing to be pulled

**hckymstr19** · 07-09-2016 03:28 PM

Well my logs say otherwise and I'm stage 2 and ran a fucking 13.0 at 106. No bypass and timing advance only got as high as 13. Sorry for my language but I'm a little upset

**importraceram** · 07-09-2016 03:34 PM

Thanks a lot for the responses guys!

I guess my biggest question is how does a car dyno such high numbers in hot and humid shop conditions but yet fall so hard on its face during a 65 degree 1/4mile blast? I am far from an expert so bare with me. As someone said, dyno logs are different than real world logs so maybe I just answered my own question?

Awwturbo I will definitely be shooting you a PM in the very near future. We will have to meet up for sure!

To the poster above, did I read that correctly? You ran a 13@106!? If so what were the conditions like?

**hckymstr19** · 07-09-2016 03:40 PM

Yea that is correct, how that is even possible I don't know. The temp our was right around 80 and a little humid. Ill look the da up when I get home. And my iat were very high like in the 80s by the end of the track, and that's Celsius. So I assumed it was that but the bypass stayed closed and timing was not pulled. So I'm at a loss

**Symko** · 07-09-2016 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by derek.kritz

Don't know why everyone thinks EPL cars run slow at the track....been proven false numerous times...anyway people always want to hate. The guys over at Audirevolution act like Tony and his crew murdered their whole family. That much hate for some reason. This one cat Simko I think???

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So everyone knows, this is not me. My name is spelled different but wanted to clarify👍
Carry on
Dave

**awwturbo** · 07-09-2016 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by importraceram

Thanks a lot for the responses guys!

I guess my biggest question is how does a car dyno such high numbers in hot and humid shop conditions but yet fall so hard on its face during a 65 degree 1/4mile blast? I am far from an expert so bare with me. As someone said, dyno logs are different than real world logs so maybe I just answered my own question?

Awwturbo I will definitely be shooting you a PM in the very near future. We will have to meet up for sure!

To the poster above, did I read that correctly? You ran a 13@106!? If so what were the conditions like?

I'm thinking the biggest difference between the dyno and the dragstrip is airflow. On the dyno you have the fan blowing air into the car while at the strip you are sitting at the staging lane building up heat. From my logs at the track and running on the roads, I noticed that the intake temps rose quickly as the boost started building. Essentially the harder the supercharger is working the more heat it's making, especially towards the 16psi range at the top of the rev range. I had my IAT reach 78C on one run with poor timing. Some of the other guys with more experience and knowledge can chime in.

Originally Posted by hckymstr19

Yea that is correct, how that is even possible I don't know. The temp our was right around 80 and a little humid. Ill look the da up when I get home. And my iat were very high like in the 80s by the end of the track, and that's Celsius. So I assumed it was that but the bypass stayed closed and timing was not pulled. So I'm at a loss

With intake temps that high that is when timing should be pulled. Where was it reading? Typical stage 2 cars should be getting high teens to low 20s for timing from what I've read and seen in logs.

**derek.kritz** · 07-09-2016 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Symko

So everyone knows, this is not me. My name is spelled different but wanted to clarify

Carry on
Dave

Correct. Let's not confuse anyone. You don't want to mistaken for that guy for sure....it's "sakimushi" or some thing like that.

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**bhvrdr** · 07-09-2016 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by awwturbo

I'm thinking the biggest difference between the dyno and the dragstrip is airflow. On the dyno you have the fan blowing air into the car while at the strip you are sitting at the staging lane building up heat. From my logs at the track and running on the roads, I noticed that the intake temps rose quickly as the boost started building. Essentially the harder the supercharger is working the more heat it's making, especially towards the 16psi range at the top of the rev range. I had my IAT reach 78C on one run with poor timing. Some of the other guys with more experience and knowledge can chime in.

With intake temps that high that is when timing should be pulled. Where was it reading? Typical stage 2 cars should be getting high teens to low 20s for timing from what I've read and seen in logs.

The bad thing about 1/4 mile tracks is the staging. Once you start your 1/4 mile run you are getting great airflow over the car. Little carpet fans that many dyno shops use actually do a pretty poor job of replicating real world airflow. You should see the gigantic turbine fans used on some MAHA dynos that only can simulate 70mph airflow.

On good quality 93 octane i'd think high teens for timing would be something you'd hope for in ok weather. The OP's car does not appear to be requesting that kind of timing and I can only assume that is because it has reverted down to a lower timing map based on a high IAT trigger but his tuner would be the one to verify that.

I'd still suggest logging ECTs, checking all cooling functions, and logging AFR.

Mike

**CrownSeven** · 07-09-2016 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by hodrosS42001

EPL cars seems to be great until they get to the track and they're slow as hell.

But the butt dyno does not lie..... does it?

**fx_warrior** · 07-09-2016 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by hodrosS42001

EPL cars seems to be great until they get to the track and they're slow as hell.

Exactly what I said in the APR thread!!

**hodrosS42001** · 07-10-2016 06:15 AM

If there's so many fast EPL cars putting down great times why aren't they advertised why aren't they published? It's hard to claim sometime without backing it up.. And one or two unicorns doesn't mean much. My APR Stage 2 with no TCU tune ran consistent 11.9s four years ago.. And these new revised Stage 2 cars with TCU tunes are consistently showing mediocre/horrible times.

**Thurston** · 07-10-2016 08:14 AM

this is quickly becoming an issue and it should.

**derek.kritz** · 07-10-2016 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by hodrosS42001

If there's so many fast EPL cars putting down great times why aren't they advertised why aren't they published? It's hard to claim sometime without backing it up.. And one or two unicorns doesn't mean much. My APR Stage 2 with no TCU tune ran consistent 11.9s four years ago.. And these new revised Stage 2 cars with TCU tunes are consistently showing mediocre/horrible times.

Not trying to start an argument but the reason there arn't many good times on EPL is because many EPL people (including myself) don't go to the track. I honestly know of about 6-7 EPL customers that have taken there cars. The ratio of EPL to giac and APR gotta be like 30-1. If 1/4 times are that important, someone should start a "EPL 1/4 mile time" thread. Actually I'll do it. We can have all the EPL people put up there tune, fuel and best time and trap speed. No time slips or nothing. Can see how many actually have gone.

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**Hofahome** · 07-10-2016 09:28 AM

I probably can't make it to bandimere but I'd like to line up against any other apr or giac cars in Mexico on a weekend. For science.

**doug97gxe** · 07-10-2016 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by derek.kritz

Not trying to start an argument but the reason there arn't many good times on EPL is because many EPL people (including myself) don't go to the track. I honestly know of about 6-7 EPL customers that have taken there cars. The ratio of EPL to giac and APR gotta be like 30-1. If 1/4 times are that important, someone should start a "EPL 1/4 mile time" thread. Actually I'll do it. We can have all the EPL people put up there tune, fuel and best time and trap speed. No time slips or nothing. Can see how many actually have gone.

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he has an agenda.. i wouldn't waste your time arguing .. let him believe what he wants