Need Timing Belt Help - 2002 Audi S4 - Cam bar wont line up at TDC

[secrethq]

Hey Guys - Thanks in advance for the help!

As stated im doing the tb in my b5 s4 and I cant get the cam bar to line up when tdc marks are lined up.

The tb was done before and the person marked the cams and covers which are dead on when the factory score marks on the crank pulley are lined up.

But when at the tdc marks the cam bar looks like this:



I have taken the valve covers off as im doing those gaskets and seals as well anyways and see that the arrows are lined up correctly there.

If I spin the engine to get the bar to line up the marks are approx. 1 tooth off.. which is about 1/4" passed the crank pulley mark.

Do I just spin the engine put the bar on with the marks 1 tooth off then put the crank lock pin in and continue on the job?

Or do I keep the engine at the tdc marks(crank & last mechanics cam marks).. put in the crank lock pin, loosen the cam sprocket bolts and spin the cam ears/flanges/proper name? (keeping sprockets in place) and just line up and put on the cam lock bar and consider this the "new" tdc?

Currently wrenching on this project right now so thank you for speedy answers and solutions on your 4th of July weekend!

Thank you for your time I really appreciate it!

P.S. Ive looked at dozens of posts about this problem.. I really just need 1 real solution/method - most posts everyone has a different method of handling it.

[rollerton]

Line it up as the factory would do it. Bank 2 looks lined up and if the crank is on TDC then you're 1 tooth off on bank 1. "1 tooth" is in the range of what a worn belt can stretch of the years, so if it was done properly it's not alarming.
I'd get it as close as possible, loosen the parts and use the bar to line it all up for reassembly. Can't really go wrong if you use the lock bar to line it up.

[secrethq]

Line it up as the factory would do it. Bank 2 looks lined up and if the crank is on TDC then you're 1 tooth off on bank 1. "1 tooth" is in the range of what a worn belt can stretch of the years, so if it was done properly it's not alarming.
I'd get it as close as possible, loosen the parts and use the bar to line it all up for reassembly. Can't really go wrong if you use the lock bar to line it up.

- So your saying use the crank pulley tdc mark, drop in the crank lock pin and when putting the new tb on use the bar then?

Just want to be certain - its an expensive whoops...

Thank you for your time!

[vavJETTAw36]

Plain and simple, the factory TDC marks are what you need to focus on being lined up. Are you saying the picture you are showing with the bar at an angle has all factory TDC marks lined up? If so, that's where you need to be. Count your chain links too.

How did the lock bar end up like that? Didn't you use it while removing the TB?


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[y3ti]

if I'm following right, he hasn't taken the old one off yet.

Lock in the Cam Bar.
Pop the Cam sprockets.
Remove timing stuff.
Line up the crank pulley mark, insert lockpin.
Replace the timing stuff.
Adjust the tension to spec.
Remove crank lockpin.

Make sure to do a couple revolutions after everything is tightened back up. If the Cams and crank are still lined up, youre good.

Here's the ECS timingbelt walk-thru...
http://bd8ba3c866c8cbc330ab-7b26c6f3...elt_DIY_r2.pdf

[secrethq]

Yes the old belt is still on.

Heres where things line up:





cam bar fits on in this position

the cam marks are lined up but the crank is about a 1/4" past the mark... can kind of see it under my dirty finger nail..

so from this point following y3ti, I put the bar on - cam marks where they are now (centered) - pop the cam sprockets - then turn my crank 1 fullish revolution to the factory score mark with cam sprockets disengaged - crank lock pin in -- business as usual..

?

Sorry.. I know im overthinking it.. but - well, you know.

Thanks for your help guys

[Austonwerner4]

Its normal for the crank pulley to be off. Line up the 2 cams and pop open the crank pin hole and see if its centered

[jballou]

You need to line it all up using the crank lock pin. Don't cheap out cause it's hard to get to.

[secrethq]

Haha.. ive had that thing in and out 12 times today... pit crew speed.

Got everthing lined up and went ahead with the job.

I am however having trouble with the thermostat housing. I bought a metal one and i cant get it to tighten down with the torque wrench to 10nm.

Actually i cant get it to click at 1nm...

...bolts just spin.. until they break - just had to dig out the broken threads and cut the long bolt i dont need with the metal housing down to size.

Any thoughts?

Id try the plastic housing but im out of bolts to break!

Thanks guys

[secrethq]

No one else has had the metal thermostat problem I take it?

[vavJETTAw36]

What is the range on your torque wrench? If that is near the minimum range I would not trust it.


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[y3ti]

10nm is almost nothing... just snug it and you should be fine. Put some blue loctite if you're nervous about it.

[rollerton]

I may get crap for this, but people take the 'OEM torque' values too far I think. Meaning those torque values are intended for a new engine, with all new parts and fresh perfect threads and brand new bolts.
Using the same values for old corroded used bolts and threads and fittings is not the same. Many situations I'll use them, but mostly on normal disassembly and reassembly and maintenance I don't other because of exactly what is happening to you. Many bolts will shear or threads will strip.

[cjt671]

What is the range on your torque wrench? If that is near the minimum range I would not trust it.


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This, as a rule of thumb you shouldn't use a torque wrench below 20% of its maximum capacity. Get a torque wrench meant for low values for things like that if you feel the need to use one

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[secrethq]

This, as a rule of thumb you shouldn't use a torque wrench below 20% of its maximum capacity. Get a torque wrench meant for low values for things like that if you feel the need to use one

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-- ^ this

Talked to my bike mechanic buddy. Basically said the same thing.

Ive got a 150 ft lb torque wrench...

...another purchase to make.

Thanks for the help guys. Def. Appreciate it!

[audacity]

Its normal for the crank pulley to be off. Line up the 2 cams and pop open the crank pin hole and see if its centered

not sure how its normal? on the countless timing belts i've done, never had the pulley not line up if done properly.

OP

pop the cam sprockets
put the cam bar on
put the new belt on.
use the main crank bolt to rotate the crank until the mark on the timing cover is aligned with the tick on the pulley.
insert your crank pin if you have one. (i use but its not desperately needed)
torque your cam sprockets down
adjust your tensioner.

done.

[okkim]

No it's not normal!

[JordanBetch]

Haha.. ive had that thing in and out 12 times today... pit crew speed.

Got everthing lined up and went ahead with the job.

I am however having trouble with the thermostat housing. I bought a metal one and i cant get it to tighten down with the torque wrench to 10nm.

Actually i cant get it to click at 1nm...

...bolts just spin.. until they break - just had to dig out the broken threads and cut the long bolt i dont need with the metal housing down to size.

Any thoughts?

Id try the plastic housing but im out of bolts to break!

Thanks guys

Currently at this point in my timing belt job. I got the cam bar on but the crank tdc mark is off about 1/4 inch. What did you do to get it all to line up? I'm quite puzzled, and that bar was a PITA to get on.


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[slowSfaux]

Ignore the mark on the pulley. Put the crank pin in all the way and note where the mark should be. That's your new tdc. There's enough play in the bolt holes on the crank pulley to move the mark 1/4"

[zillarob]

Dont worry about what it looked like before you did it, assuming it was still running when you took it apart

When you get done, it may not be perfect on the crank mark, but will be a whole hell of a lot closer than that.
As said above, there is some wobble room for the holes on the lower cover. You can put the crank pin in and line the cover up before tightening the bolts if you have ocd like the rest of us here


If you are in the offwards direction, dont worry about the crank mark, its rip tear time. The cam bar is the more important part at this point.

If you are in the onwards direction, and it isnt lining up, its also rip tear time to start over and figure out what you did wrong.

[JordanBetch]

So I need the cam bar on to loosen the cam bolts, then it doesn't matter until reassembly. mark new tdc on crank pulley, continue business as usual?


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[zillarob]

Yes, except for the new mark on the crank thing.
Dont worry too much about the crank right now, it will be in the right place when you put it back together.

[JordanBetch]

Yes, except for the new mark on the crank thing.
Dont worry too much about the crank right now, it will be in the right place when you put it back together.

After new belt is on and I spin it a few time it will line up if I understand correctly? This whole concept has honestly been blowing my mind and I'm just now getting a grasp on it haha


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[JordanBetch]

The crank pin does not fit in with the cam bar on... how do I get it all the way in? Currently wrenching so thanks for the speedy replies!


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[JordanBetch]

The crank pin does not fit in with the cam bar on... how do I get it all the way in? Currently wrenching so thanks for the speedy replies!


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UPDATE. crank pin is in with crank pulley at TDC but bar will not fit... what is the next step


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[y3ti]

How far off are the cams?

[JordanBetch]

Very small amounts. Took pin out, lined Cams, loosened and popped, and just moved crank to tdc and locked. Procedure found on another forum


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[zillarob]

You are making this way more difficult than it is.

Again, dont worry about the crank right now. The cams are the important part at this point.
You dont need the crank pin until you are putting it back together.

[JordanBetch]

You are making this way more difficult than it is.

Again, dont worry about the crank right now. The cams are the important part at this point.
You dont need the crank pin until you are putting it back together.

Yeah I know I am. I think I got it now, I just don't understand the whole cam gear/alignment set up. But since I popped the gears I should be able to do the rest then line them up with the bar before I tighten them down, yes?


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[slowSfaux]

Seriously man, you're way over complicating this. Do as zilla says. If you popped the gears already, you can turn the cams with the cam bar independently of the crank and of each other. What matters is how you line it up upon reassembly, not how far everything is off right now. You'll understand the system a little better once you get the belt off and remove the cam gears to replace the cam seals if you're going that deep. The gears are freewheeling once they're popped, so removing them is as easy as removing the single bolt holding them to the cam.

[JordanBetch]

So upon reassembly should I pop my cam covers to make sure they're lined up since things were off?


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[zillarob]

No, that is what the cam bar is for.

But I do the vcg and tensioner gaskets when I do the tbelt. Its the only way to get to the dside one and get it clean enough to muck with imo.