So where are the REAL tuning options at?

[hbracer93]

After doing some reading and looking through this forum and the manufactures websites, all they are are flash programs. Where is the software so I can take my car to a dyno and actually tune my car, my car, not a generic S3 with generic parts on it. Not every intake is the same, not every down pipe is the same, and not every S3 is the same. I want to be able to know that my car has every ounce of power that it can manage and handle. If there is already a company that does this and I missed it I apologize, or maybe if it's just not a thing with German cars. I would be curious to here from a company as to why they don't or haven't made it so I can go and get an actual tune.

[Arrested_Decay]

The devices that flash the ecu, can flash it with custom settings. Your tuner just has to be able to work with thier software.

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[hbracer93]

So they offer the ability of custom tuning then? If so, It seems like everyone just slaps in stage 1 or stage 2 and calls it a day.

[Baggio]

Hopefully, Cobb will release something soon. They have canned tunes, but you can custom tune their software on the dyno as well.

[FabianS]

Doesn't Eurodyne have something like that?

[Arrested_Decay]

I am almost positive that you can do it with all the tuners on the market...but they give you canned tunes, so you can buy it, make a difference without spending hundreds extra to go with dyno time. Most people go with the stages more commonly, because they have been well tested and it doesn't make sense to spend a few hundred bucks to try an get slight improvements over the staged canned tunes.

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[hbracer93]

Cobb would be the saving grace but I'm not sure how long we would have to wait for that.

From what I've read and understand a "stage" a "canned tune" and an "off-the shelve tune" are all basically the same thing. A preset tune that is provided to you but not tuned specifically for your car or your specific mods.

[14S4GWM]

From what I've read and understand a "stage" a "canned tune" and an "off-the shelve tune" are all basically the same thing. A preset tune that is provided to you but not tuned specifically for your car or your specific mods.

That's why you want a custom tune, no matter what it's always better. Miss my Subaru and my Cobb AP.

[tateltot]

That's why you want a custom tune, no matter what it's always better. Miss my Subaru and my Cobb AP.

Be careful with generalized absolutes. Nothing is ever anything.

[14S4GWM]

Be careful with generalized absolutes. Nothing is ever anything.

I'll add

With a trusted tuner you can't go wrong, some backyard wanna be tuner will kill it.

[Baggio]

Cobb would be the saving grace but I'm not sure how long we would have to wait for that.

From what I've read and understand a "stage" a "canned tune" and an "off-the shelve tune" are all basically the same thing. A preset tune that is provided to you but not tuned specifically for your car or your specific mods.

Well, with stage 1 there aren't any additional hardware needed. Stage 2 requires a downpipe. Since it isn't a MAF car, intake more than likely isn't going to require additional tuning or affect it that much. Not sure any of the flash tunes offers anything that will allow you change fuel trims, timing, etc. So Cobb in my opinion is your best bet if you really want to custom tune it on a dyno.

[hbracer93]

Well, with stage 1 there aren't any additional hardware needed. Stage 2 requires a downpipe. Since it isn't a MAF car, intake more than likely isn't going to require additional tuning or affect it that much. Not sure any of the flash tunes offers anything that will allow you change fuel trims, timing, etc. So Cobb in my opinion is your best bet if you really want to custom tune it on a dyno.

You have a very valid point, with the mods that are on the market right now there isn't a need to have a custom tune, maybe. Meaning that how much power will you really gain from custom tuning an intake, down pipe, intercooler? I'm not sure but I would like to have the option of finding out.

Now if people were doing cams, larger turbos, increasing the displacement then there would be a real need for a custom tune. I know apr has a stage 3 kit, but my feelings are that without a custom tune those people will eventually need a new motor. Replacing the turbo and fuel system is not something I would want to leave in the hands of an off-the-shelve tune, maybe to get it up and running until you can get a proper tune but not something I'm gonna beat on the track with.

[Baggio]

You have a very valid point, with the mods that are on the market right now there isn't a need to have a custom tune, maybe. Meaning that how much power will you really gain from customizing a intake, down pipe, intercooler? I'm not sure but I would like to have the option of finding out.

Now if people were doing cams, larger turbos, increasing the displacement then there would be a real need for a custom tune. I know apr has a stage 3 kit, but my feelings are that without a custom tune those people will eventually need a new motor. Replacing the turbo and fuel system is not something I would want to leave in the hands of an off-the-shelve tune, maybe to get it up and running until you can get a proper tune but not something I'm gonna beat on the track with.

I am going to PM you. I have something you might interest you.


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[tateltot]

A JB1 will also give you the flexibility you want in tuning. Huge, growing community there. Less control than an ECU tune, but reasonably priced.

[DarkSideGTI]

JB1 doesn't really allow you to tune much.

Drive out to Utah, Integrated Engineering can dyno tune your car for you. You need someone with the tools to read/write the protocols used to control the ECU. Even a Cobb AP won't be the same as a real tune.

[saxon]

JB1 doesn't really allow you to tune much.

Drive out to Utah, Integrated Engineering can dyno tune your car for you. You need someone with the tools to read/write the protocols used to control the ECU. Even a Cobb AP won't be the same as a real tune.

how would a cobb ap not be the same as a real tune? i know at first they wont have every table unlocked but after awhile they will give you control to every table needed to make big power like they do on gtr etc

[Lusky]

JB1 doesn't really allow you to tune much.

Drive out to Utah, Integrated Engineering can dyno tune your car for you. You need someone with the tools to read/write the protocols used to control the ECU. Even a Cobb AP won't be the same as a real tune.

I am not seeing anything on there website for the MQB Platform....I maybe looking for new options as I am unsure I will ever see my APR Stage 3+ kit as the back order keeps getting pushed back.

[DarkSideGTI]

how would a cobb ap not be the same as a real tune? i know at first they wont have every table unlocked but after awhile they will give you control to every table needed to make big power like they do on gtr etc

Cobb AP does not unlock the entire ECU like a tuner can with the correct tools.

I am not seeing anything on there website for the MQB Platform....I maybe looking for new options as I am unsure I will ever see my APR Stage 3+ kit as the back order keeps getting pushed back.

You would have to call them. I would not go APR with the drop in kits that will be coming out in the future. I know of at least two companies working on "kits" that should work without needing an adapter flange and will work with stock IC piping and downpipe.

[EmmanueleDesign]

APR, GIAC, etc. release finished tunes that really don't leave a lot of room for more power. So it will be different from Cobb who releases an "OTS" that leaves a lot to be desired. Their model is based around base maps that can and should be tweaked by an end user, while most of the large VAG tuners do not employ this same idea.

For example, Cobb claims ~15 horsepower on the new Focus RS stage 1 tune whereas some of the larger European firms are showing 25-30. Once Pro Tuners start having access to this car, you will certainly see the cars pushing another 15 or more horsepower with the same hardware. Is it because a custom tune was vastly superior? Not necessarily. If your business model relies on end users that make money from tuning, you would have a lot of unhappy customers if you DIDN'T leave power on the table with base maps. Imagine you're a customer and you pay additional money to put your car on a dyno for a custom tune, and the results come back with another 3 horsepower gained from this extra time and money spent. How would you feel?

This it the exact OPPOSITE of GIAC/APR, as if customers happen to dyno or quarter mile their cars and the results are vastly lower than expected, there is no "custom tuning" to make up the power. So these companies must ensure that their tunes squeeze out every bit of reliable horsepower, because when a car is slow all the blame comes on them (as opposed to an end "Tuner").

Think about it this way, APR and GIAC make money one time off a sale, as their tune reaches the end user at a wholesale margin. A company like Cobb, on the other hand, not only makes money off the handheld flash unit (which includes the OTS maps), but AGAIN from the tuner/wholesaler when they purchase credits and/or software to "Pro Tune" the car. It's a great model, and is also why you see the perception that "no two cars are the same" or "you have to custom tune the car to make the most power." If you stopped believing that, most of their selling points would be out the window.

We have the ability to custom tune the SIMOS18 ECU, but in most cases there really isn't any added value in doing so versus the GIAC tunes that we normally sell. If a customer will be running C16 or a one-off turbo then yes, we must custom tune the car. But for your normal bolt-on car, APR/GIAC etc. are going to leave little, if any, power on the table.

[hbracer93]

Awesome. Makes sense. Thank you for the information.

[SoCal S3]

So what happens when we don't use specific parts from APR,
I recall on my STi that when using multiple brands of parts (APS, AEM, COBB, diff size Intercoolers) 1 single tune was not good enough therefore a custom tune or Cobb AP became necessary, but with my S3 it seems I can mix and match brands and be ok with just a simple Stg 1 or Stg 2 tune.....does this seem correct?
I have not tuned my S3 yet so I am trying to decide what route to take.

[tateltot]

JB1 doesn't really allow you to tune much.

Drive out to Utah, Integrated Engineering can dyno tune your car for you. You need someone with the tools to read/write the protocols used to control the ECU. Even a Cobb AP won't be the same as a real tune.

No? Seems like there's a 300 page thread somewhere of people screwing around.

ED, great explanation.

[RudyH]

So what happens when we don't use specific parts from APR,
I recall on my STi that when using multiple brands of parts (APS, AEM, COBB, diff size Intercoolers) 1 single tune was not good enough therefore a custom tune or Cobb AP became necessary, but with my S3 it seems I can mix and match brands and be ok with just a simple Stg 1 or Stg 2 tune.....does this seem correct?
I have not tuned my S3 yet so I am trying to decide what route to take.

You want a turbo outside of what we offer at double to triple the cost?
Do not pass go, go directly to jail!

You are going to be stuck with the bundled kits. You can't go off experimenting with different turbos and getting the most out of it - unless you add a piggy back

[Baggio]

So what happens when we don't use specific parts from APR,
I recall on my STi that when using multiple brands of parts (APS, AEM, COBB, diff size Intercoolers) 1 single tune was not good enough therefore a custom tune or Cobb AP became necessary, but with my S3 it seems I can mix and match brands and be ok with just a simple Stg 1 or Stg 2 tune.....does this seem correct?
I have not tuned my S3 yet so I am trying to decide what route to take.

Stage 1 requires no hardware.

Stage 2 requires a downpipe

An intercooler will make either of those stages more efficient.

An intake will probably not really affect either of those tunes.

What other parts are you considering that you think would affect the tune? Different turbo, heads and cams come to my mind and would need a custom tune.

[HurrayFive]

So what happens when we don't use specific parts from APR,
I recall on my STi that when using multiple brands of parts (APS, AEM, COBB, diff size Intercoolers) 1 single tune was not good enough therefore a custom tune or Cobb AP became necessary, but with my S3 it seems I can mix and match brands and be ok with just a simple Stg 1 or Stg 2 tune.....does this seem correct?
I have not tuned my S3 yet so I am trying to decide what route to take.

If you're sticking with the stock turbo, head, and block, the other parts do not need to be APR. My car is a Frankenstein of brands and has been at stage 2 power levels (~400HP/TQ) for over a year without any trouble. These cars do not use MAF sensors in the intake tract so the intake geometry doesn't matter like it would if you had to deal with a fussy MAF sensor that was engineered for the air flow at the exact point it was placed in the factory tract. It means so long as the intake isn't a hinderance and is smooth flowing, they're all going to be relatively similar.

Same for the downpipe, smooth flowing, just about every brand is the same diameter, and an APR/GIAC/whatever brand tune will kill the cat under-efficiency CEL - you might get different results in weight and overall longevity of the part depending on the material it was made with/quality of the welds, but performance-wise they're all going to be similar w/ similar designs.

Same again with the intercooler, so long as it doesn't flow worse than stock, they're all larger cores that cool more effectively. I've had no issues with the Uni, and in the AZ heat it made a big difference in how consistent the car feels on a hot day.

Even if I decide to go APR stage 3, my downpipe is the only thing I'd have to swap out for their EFR specific setup. The stuff TTE is putting out looks pretty slick though, their 525R hybrid setup has been pushed well over 530HP on the stock fuel system with race gas, multiple 10 second MK7 Golf R's running the 525R - it requires completely custom tuning though.

[DarkSideGTI]

No? Seems like there's a 300 page thread somewhere of people screwing around.

ED, great explanation.

Show me where people are playing with fueling and timing maps. JB1 doesn't even have the sensors to do it.