Help with figuring out my issue with GIAC Stage 2

[awwturbo]

Been GIAC Stage 2 for a month now and had a chance to run the car at the dragstrip. Not impressed with the times. Almost no difference from stage 1 times, and actually the other night when I went to do some data logging, the mph was way off. Best time on stage 1 was 12.5 @ 115 on a 39 degree night. Last night with 60 degree weather best time was 12.5 @ 109. The car is running straight 93 octane.

Checking the logs the timing is being pulled or not going to where it's suppose to be. IAT temps at one point got to 78 degrees celsius. Even with ideal IAT at the 50-51 degree celsius range the car wasn't making the timing it was suppose to. The highest ignition angle was in the low teens.

Anyone that's and expert at logs, could you lend a hand and explain what's going on? I'm thinking I need an upgraded intercooler which I have an AWE Coldfront System on its way.

Here is the link to the logs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=413839401

Everyday driving and from the butt dyno the car feels stronger. But falls when the rpms get higher.

EDIT: This is a run in 3rd gear from 2kish-7k. Says max acc pos is 78% but I was resting on the kickdown.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=867880234

Two runs in these logs of 3rd gear pulls:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=129465260

[chrisucf99]

Maybe shit gas. See my thread here. Try mixing in 4 gallons of E85 to your tank of 93 to bring the octane up.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...from-the-track

I went from 12.45 @ 111.50 to 12.113 @ 113.77 and it was pretty hot out too.

[Ray Khan]

How many miles are on your plugs? I would try chrisucf99's suggestion of logging with better gas to see how much improvement can be had first.

[awwturbo]

Maybe shit gas. See my thread here. Try mixing in 4 gallons of E85 to your tank of 93 to bring the octane up.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...from-the-track

I went from 12.45 @ 111.50 to 12.113 @ 113.77 and it was pretty hot out too.

Unfortunately E85 is not available in my area. I could dump some 100 octane in and see what happens.

How many miles are on your plugs? I would try chrisucf99's suggestion of logging with better gas to see how much improvement can be had first.

Just had the Audicare 35k service done with fresh plugs, oil and dsg fluid. The car was running really good until I hit higher rpms above 5.5k.

It's weird, with my 2011 6spd. with APR Stage 1 my best time on a crap clutch was 12.6 @ 112 (time in the 1/4 thread). It's hard to imagine a stage 2 with DSG hitting only a tenth better...

[shoe3k]

Been GIAC Stage 2 for a month now and had a chance to run the car at the dragstrip. Not impressed with the times. Almost no difference from stage 1 times, and actually the other night when I went to do some data logging, the mph was way off. Best time on stage 1 was 12.5 @ 115 on a 39 degree night. Last night with 60 degree weather best time was 12.5 @ 109. The car is running straight 93 octane.

Checking the logs the timing is being pulled or not going to where it's suppose to be. IAT temps at one point got to 78 degrees celsius. Even with ideal IAT at the 50-51 degree celsius range the car wasn't making the timing it was suppose to. The highest ignition angle was in the low teens.

Anyone that's and expert at logs, could you lend a hand and explain what's going on? I'm thinking I need an upgraded intercooler which I have an AWE Coldfront System on its way.

Here is the link to the logs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=413839401

Everyday driving and from the butt dyno the car feels stronger. But falls when the rpms get higher.

That is strange but it could be the gas or even possibly you put the wrong octane worth of gas in?

I just did logging of my GIAC STG2 during 89F/high humidity weather on the highway and here were my results:

1. Cruising highway - IAT were between 42-45C
2. 2 straight pulls in 3rd gear (back to back) - IAT maxed out at 56C
3. With a 30 second highway cruise the temps went back down to the low 40s
4. Last run (1st->2nd->3rd) - IAT maxed out at 56C.

Try to get some 3rd gear logs on the highway to see if temps stay consistent when the car is at speed. At STGII levels the cooling is adequate if the car is constantly moving. Of course, the car will perform better with an upgraded cooling system since lowering coolant temp is very important, especially at the track where the car will sit for long periods of time.

[awwturbo]

That is strange but it could be the gas or even possibly you put the wrong octane worth of gas in?

I just did logging of my GIAC STG2 during 89F/high humidity weather on the highway and here were my results:

1. Cruising highway - IAT were between 42-45C
2. 2 straight pulls in 3rd gear (back to back) - IAT maxed out at 56C
3. With a 30 second highway cruise the temps went back down to the low 40s
4. Last run (1st->2nd->3rd) - IAT maxed out at 56C.

Try to get some 3rd gear logs on the highway to see if temps stay consistent when the car is at speed. At STGII levels the cooling is adequate if the car is constantly moving. Of course, the car will perform better with an upgraded cooling system since lowering coolant temp is very important, especially at the track where the car will sit for long periods of time.

I always fill at the same gas station in the town I live in with Shell 93 Nitro. Even with my last S4. I've done some data logging on stage 1 on the highway and those were done in 50 degree F weather and the IAT were in the 39-50 degree celsius range.

What gas do you run in yours?

[shoe3k]

I only have 93octane available right by my house but wish e85 was closer to me. The only difference between us would be the model year, my intake, and I removed the crazy restrictive snow screen.

I just downloaded your logs and I'm seeing something strange with temps.

:Summary:
1. Between 5277-5733, temps jump from 53.25C to 75C (40F difference). This explains the low timing because the bypass did not open during those temps.
2. During another run, IAT started at 58 and start to decrease and as soon as you pass 4500RPM the IAT go nuts.

I still think the temp jump is weird especially in that RPM range and would expect to see those types of jumps past 6000rpm after consistent runs. Just try to do some logging on the highway because the stock cooling system does an adequate job when the car is moving. Is anything blocking the heat exchanger or is your coolant level low?

[awwturbo]

I only have 93octane available right by my house but wish e85 was closer to me. The only difference between us would be the model year, my intake, and I removed the crazy restrictive snow screen.

I just downloaded your logs and I'm seeing something strange with temps.

:Summary:
1. Between 5277-5733, temps jump from 53.25C to 75C (40F difference). This explains the low timing because the bypass did not open during those temps.
2. During another run, IAT started at 58 and start to decrease and as soon as you pass 4500RPM the IAT go nuts.

I still think the temp jump is weird especially in that RPM range and would expect to see those types of jumps past 6000rpm after consistent runs. Just try to do some logging on the highway because the stock cooling system does an adequate job when the car is moving. Is anything blocking the heat exchanger or is your coolant level low?

The spike to the 75C was very concerning for sure. At one point it got to 78C... The coolant level is where it should be. I'll check the heat exchanger for blockage, but I don't think there's any issue with that.

[colby7]

I did some logging last night, including a WOT run from a standstill, all the way through 5th gear. My max IAT was 57 degrees (as the car shifted from 5th to 6th gear). That's pretty much inline with shoe.

[awwturbo]

So, with my stage 2 tune I was told it was a file made for the forge pulley which is smaller than the awe/giac one. I'm running the CTS Turbo pulley which is smaller than the forge.

Would that be too aggressive and cause the added heat without the upgraded heat exchanger?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jran76]

So, with my stage 2 tune I was told it was a file made for the forge pulley which is smaller than the awe/giac one. I'm running the CTS Turbo pulley which is smaller than the forge.

Would that be too aggressive and cause the added heat without the upgraded heat exchanger?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's not enough of a size difference in the pulleys to make a difference. Any standard stage 2 pulley is going to be pretty similar in that regard.

I took a quick look at the logs and posts, and agree with what has been said. I'd first try better/different gas, or even better mixing in some E85 as suggested above. Bleed the coolant system to make sure there is no air in it. Obviously (and you are aware of this), a coolant system would help a lot. I don't think your issues go beyond those things.

What was the DA when you made your passes on stage 1 and stage 2? I'd imagine any other difference is accounted for there.

[importraceram]

Maybe it's the NED curse? Sounds like you (12.5@109) and I (12.5@107) would have quite the stage 2 show down . Going down to CT next week to get my car squared away. Hopefully Tony can work his magic.

Hoping you get it figured out, would love to meet up at NED to compare the cars/tunes.

[awwturbo]

There's not enough of a size difference in the pulleys to make a difference. Any standard stage 2 pulley is going to be pretty similar in that regard.

I took a quick look at the logs and posts, and agree with what has been said. I'd first try better/different gas, or even better mixing in some E85 as suggested above. Bleed the coolant system to make sure there is no air in it. Obviously (and you are aware of this), a coolant system would help a lot. I don't think your issues go beyond those things.

What was the DA when you made your passes on stage 1 and stage 2? I'd imagine any other difference is accounted for there.

I forgot to check the DA. It was pretty good conditions and I didn't bother checking it. What gas would you recommend? I thought that I had the best in my area in my car. The only bad thing is I would have to drive over an hour away to get E85. But I can get Sunoco 100 octane at a station near the track. The coolant system should be good and airless, but I will check again.

[awwturbo]

Maybe it's the NED curse? Sounds like you (12.5@109) and I (12.5@107) would have quite the stage 2 show down . Going down to CT next week to get my car squared away. Hopefully Tony can work his magic.

Hoping you get it figured out, would love to meet up at NED to compare the cars/tunes.

I know right? We are probably both having the same issues with our cars. I saw you the first time you ran at NED with the stage 1 and pulley thinking it was stage 2 and couldn't find you after the run.
I would be very interested to see what Tony says about your car. And anytime you want to meet up at NED, just let me know!

[importraceram]

I know right? We are probably both having the same issues with our cars. I saw you the first time you ran at NED with the stage 1 and pulley thinking it was stage 2 and couldn't find you after the run.
I would be very interested to see what Tony says about your car. And anytime you want to meet up at NED, just let me know!

Oh that was you that night!? Saw you go 12.6@112 I think it was. Anyways I'll be in touch about meeting up once our cars are good. Good luck.

[awwturbo]

Oh that was you that night!? Saw you go 12.6@112 I think it was. Anyways I'll be in touch about meeting up once our cars are good. Good luck.

Yep, I can't remember if that was on stage 1 or stage 2 at that time. But last night I took a huge dump in mph...

Good luck to you as well.

[jran76]

I forgot to check the DA. It was pretty good conditions and I didn't bother checking it. What gas would you recommend? I thought that I had the best in my area in my car. The only bad thing is I would have to drive over an hour away to get E85. But I can get Sunoco 100 octane at a station near the track. The coolant system should be good and airless, but I will check again.

Gas varies so much from station to station, brand, and regionally, it's hard to say what's best. Some of even has to do with the way gas is stored and dispensed at specific stations. I was using top tier brands that are always highly rated, and seeing a lot of knock. I ended up logging gas from several stations, and found a couple that where consistently better than others (all top tier brands-- Chevron, Exxon, Shell, etc.). I would go that route. Just try some different stations, and log timing and knock corrections. That will give you a good idea as to what works the best.

Mixing in 100 octane or E85 will help. If mixing though, you want to give your car plenty of time to mix and adapt. 25-30 miles minimum. The more the better. E85 works great because it's cheap, but of 100 octane is more readily available, that's great too (just more pricey).

What was the date and time that you made your passes? You can look up the DA's on Drag Times....

[Loe]

hard to say without logging your car during the run.

[awwturbo]

Gas varies so much from station to station, brand, and regionally, it's hard to say what's best. Some of even has to do with the way gas is stored and dispensed at specific stations. I was using top tier brands that are always highly rated, and seeing a lot of knock. I ended up logging gas from several stations, and found a couple that where consistently better than others (all top tier brands-- Chevron, Exxon, Shell, etc.). I would go that route. Just try some different stations, and log timing and knock corrections. That will give you a good idea as to what works the best.

Mixing in 100 octane or E85 will help. If mixing though, you want to give your car plenty of time to mix and adapt. 25-30 miles minimum. The more the better. E85 works great because it's cheap, but of 100 octane is more readily available, that's great too (just more pricey).

What was the date and time that you made your passes? You can look up the DA's on Drag Times....

I'll try some different stations. It's either Shell or Mobil for me when I fill up. I try to stay with Top Tier stations. I usually fill up too when the fuel light comes on and try not to put in small amounts. Since the first couple gallons are probably regular before premium comes out.

The date was 6/22/16 and I was running at 7-9pm that night at New England Dragway in Epping, NH.

[awwturbo]

hard to say without logging your car during the run.

Me? I have a link to the logs I took during my first two runs last night.

[bhvrdr]

Please take on offense but the log is a really bad log. It almost makes me think something is wrong with the logger as well. Let me give you an example. Here is a brief period where you went WOT...

The timestamps...

438.48
438.67
440.11
440.29
441.39
443.91
445.36
448.41
451.11
451.29

First, that is VERY little data for a full run through third gear so i'm guessing it may have been first and second gear. Thats not much load on the car and not giving us much meaningful.

Second, notice how the timestamps aren't even at all. You get data in less than a second from, lets say, 438.48 to 438.67 and yet another one of the data points skips from 441.39 to 443.91. That's off.

Now lets look at the rpms that go with this...

706
1578
4398
4801
5277
5338
6068
5733
6492
6546


There is probably a gear change in there that never got fully measured due to really really low resolution because the rpms go from 6068 down to 5733 while the throttle stays at full throttle. Likely there was a bunch of missing data points around that gear change. It wasnt a full 1-2-3 gear run though because it is so brief of a period of time. Maybe first and second im guessing. (EDIT: if thats a full 1-2-3 1/4 mile run than there is a ton of data missing)

There's pretty much no knock retard in the log at all (up to 3 briefly) and the bpv doesnt open but I suspect this is because it is a low load situation with little airflow over the car.

I cant help but wonder if the coolant temps are shooting up from there being low vehicle speed/airflow over the car.


Either way, i'd refrain from trying to interpret those logs until you can get a clean one. The low timing can be from low load. It thats a log of the full 1/4 mile run than the turbo button didnt get pressed or the logger is not giving good resolution for some other reason so the data is so poor in resolution that it doesnt give us much to interpret. There's ALOT of missing data if that is a full two 1/4 mile runs.


You'll need a third gear pull from 2000rpm to redline.


Again, not being critical but the guesses you're going to get are based on bad data and not going to help you out.

Mike

[Loe]

Me? I have a link to the logs I took during my first two runs last night.

Okay I'll look at it again LOL. I'm not quite sure what logs I looked at then

[awwturbo]

I'm not sure why the timestamp wasn't cleaner. I followed Jran's instructions in his thread. Hit the turbo button and group UDS button. Unless I'm asking for too many fields to log. But at any rate, I'll have to go out again and try it on a stretch of highway that is clean to get another reading in 3rd gear.

But regardless of how bad those logs are, it still tells me that I'm probably having a heat issue if IAT climb up as high as 78C. Especially after a a high rpm run.

[Loe]

okay so i'm still not seeing the file? I see a WOT run, but the RPM is between 1200-2800rpm, and then it stops?

**EDIT** nevermind, I see it the WOT run to a higher rpm now. I agree with Mike, something either seems missing or these were 2nd gear runs (thinking it's missing something?). Log only 9 fields max if possible, it'll group better.

[awwturbo]

okay so i'm still not seeing the file? I see a WOT run, but the RPM is between 1200-2800rpm, and then it stops?

**EDIT** nevermind, I see it the WOT run to a higher rpm now. I agree with Mike, something either seems missing or these were 2nd gear runs (thinking it's missing something?). Log only 9 fields max if possible, it'll group better.

Ok, I've done a better log when I was stage 1, but for some reason this one was weird... I'll try again in the next few days and hope for a better log.

[Logan@GIAC]

After looking over your data logs your definitely under shooting the target boost. I know you mention your using the CTS pulley. Our stage II software was developed with the Forge and AWE pulley. Not sure what the CTS pulley will make boost wise but lets rule out a couple other things first. Can I get you to data log starting in 2nd low rpm to the 3-4 shift. Main things im looking for Boost (actual & specified), RPM, Throttle valve %, RFP_AV, and load. Be sure to select, group UDS and Turbo mode when you do the data logs. Basically im trying to eliminate belt slip as a possible cause. If you have any questions I will try to answer them in a timely manor.

[whiped]

After looking over your data logs your definitely under shooting the target boost. I know you mention your using the CTS pulley. Our stage II software was developed with the Forge and AWE pulley. Not sure what the CTS pulley will make boost wise but lets rule out a couple other things first. Can I get you to data log starting in 2nd low rpm to the 3-4 shift. Main things im looking for Boost (actual & specified), RPM, Throttle valve %, RFP_AV, and load. Be sure to select, group UDS and Turbo mode when you do the data logs. Basically im trying to eliminate belt slip as a possible cause. If you have any questions I will try to answer them in a timely manor.

The CTS is slightly smaller than the AWE one so should spin the SC slightly faster. (Should honestly be a negligible amount)

Nice to see you guys active on here

[Logan@GIAC]

Yes under turbo mode and group UDS you can only log 8 blocks at a time.

[jran76]

You could do 10 fields in the past, but with the new VCDS software, 8-9 works a lot better. There are a couple changes you can make that will sometimes work better with 10 fields, but still a little hit or miss.

[awwturbo]

I just updated the original post to include a log I did today. I'm not getting the timing I should be for some reason but it's fine under lower rpms and partial throttle. I'm going to try another run and see what happens.

[awwturbo]

logan@GIAC,


i've got 2 runs in of logs in the original post. the second one shows the cleanest runs in 3rd gear 2k-7k into a 4th gear shift.
hope that helps and thanks for looking at the first logs!

[bhvrdr]

It doesnt look too bad really. When you are running a pulley you are going to see a bit less timing on pump fuel than stage 1 files. I dont see anything wrong that jumps out at this point. YOu may want to run some logs doing a max of 8 variables trying out different things like checking again for knock activity (put a couple cylinders in there, make sure one of them is cyl 6) but from the logs i wouldnt be overly concerned.

Mike

[rtl5009]

How often is belt slip a problem? Are you seeing belt dust in your engine bay?

[awwturbo]

Thanks Mike. What has me concerned is that at the track, there is virtually no difference in times compared to stage 1. Also, looking at the requested boost as to the actual, there is a lot that it's not getting. Maybe it is normal to call, for example, 17.5 psi and I am actually getting 15.4 psi. I'm not familiar enough with this tuning to know if that is normal.

What I do know though is the car doesn't seem to do better in the 1/4 mile than the stage 1 tune. And with mph in the 109 last Wed. at the strip is quite dismal.

[awwturbo]

How often is belt slip a problem? Are you seeing belt dust in your engine bay?

I'll have to check it out. I don't know how to diagnose a slipping pulley belt. The engine bay is just dirty with some pollen, but I'll check again around the pulley later today.

[rtl5009]

You'll have belt dust around the supercharger pulley and also boost will build great at low Rpms and fall abruptly at higher Rpms when the slip starts.

[bhvrdr]

Thanks Mike. What has me concerned is that at the track, there is virtually no difference in times compared to stage 1. Also, looking at the requested boost as to the actual, there is a lot that it's not getting. Maybe it is normal to call, for example, 17.5 psi and I am actually getting 15.4 psi. I'm not familiar enough with this tuning to know if that is normal.

What I do know though is the car doesn't seem to do better in the 1/4 mile than the stage 1 tune. And with mph in the 109 last Wed. at the strip is quite dismal.

You're not reaching boost targets only because Giac sets boost targets that are unattainable which is actually great for those at altitude. Regardless you are making the boost that your car is capable of with that pulley. No bypass and over 15psi. I suspect the car got heat soaked at the track. That's just my first guess. There are a ton of 12.5 second cars in the summer that can run 11.9 in the cool with zero other mods. Conditions are extremely important.

Mike

[awwturbo]

You'll have belt dust around the supercharger pulley and also boost will build great at low Rpms and fall abruptly at higher Rpms when the slip starts.

Looking at the logs, I seem to be consistent with my boost. I hope I'm doing the conversion of hPa to psi right. But it holds around 15+ psi till higher rpm where it gets a little more around 16.5 psi towards 7k. So, I think I can rule out belt slippage?

[rtl5009]

Looking at the logs, I seem to be consistent with my boost. I hope I'm doing the conversion of hPa to psi right. But it holds around 15+ psi till higher rpm where it gets a little more around 16.5 psi towards 7k. So, I think I can rule out belt slippage?

If you are getting 16 lbs, yes lol. 16 is all the charger can make at that drive ratio.

Here in Phoenix on 110+ degree days I'm lucky to get 15 lbs the air is so thin. What ambient are you running the car in?

[awwturbo]

You're not reaching boost targets only because Giac sets boost targets that are unattainable which is actually great for those at altitude. Regardless you are making the boost that your car is capable of with that pulley. No bypass and over 15psi. I suspect the car got heat soaked at the track. That's just my first guess. There are a ton of 12.5 second cars in the summer that can run 11.9 in the cool with zero other mods. Conditions are extremely important.

Mike

Understood. The IAT spike up pretty quick at the higher rpms and that its probably my issue then (78C was the highest I ever saw). Seems the only solution is to install the Coldfront system.

I always appreciate your input Mike. Always a wealth of information.

- - - Updated - - -

If you are getting 16 lbs, yes lol. 16 is all the charger can make at that drive ratio.

Here in Phoenix on 110+ degree days I'm lucky to get 15 lbs the air is so thin. What ambient are you running the car in?

last night the ambient air pressure was 101. Air temps where in the 60's. Gotta love that sea level air ;)