THE Timing Chain Tensioner Failure Thread

[Gunnark100]

I haven't heard that kind of noise yet, and what do you think the smell of fuel could be coming from? Could it just be my injectors? That wouldn't explain the ticking though

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Engine really not my thing:), some info regarding fuel smell, different engine but still:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...smell-in-cabin

And here one more, smell but no ticking:

First post:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post5613808

Hopefully nothing serious!

[TurboNate]

Engine really not my thing:), some info regarding fuel smell, different engine but still:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...smell-in-cabin

And here one more, smell but no ticking:

First post:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post5613808

Hopefully nothing serious!

After reading the first link I think it might be my injector seal because one of them popped off when I was doing some carbon cleaning. I'm just wondering why I'm just now starting to smell it, when procedure was done on June 23rd.


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[Marko S]

Looks like this thread has started some serious paranoia..myself included. I've been looking at different kits/tensioners and will be doing this in a month or so. As others have stated, while youre in there you might as well get the chain done. My question is, how far do you really need to take it.

Europaparts has this kit: https://www.europaparts.com/timing-c...0t-tsi-af.html

ECS has this kit: https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4...ing/ES2592683/

@poodini referred me to this kit on ebay as well: http://www.ebay.com/itm/301827892355

For preventative maintenance this seems like overkill to me..? From what I understand, IF the tensioner has stopped doing its job, then the chain would stretch so those two should be replaced. I don't see how the guides could be damaged from this? And only one of the two tensioners needs to be changed?

Obviously when I open it up and inspect it I'll be able to check out the damage if any, but I'd rather have the parts I need, and am trying to determine which ones aren't necessary (ie. replacing valves if there wasn't a failure)

[gt854t5]

I paid $700 for labor. $400 for parts.

Hi all- Just want to add my 2-cents to the discussion. I just had my Oil-C stage 2 completed and the dealer SA did suggest that I replace my T-Chain and tensioner and other misc parts.
Total cost was $416 for parts. (I did eventually get a discount but that is the original cost). Labor was "free" I suppose since the engine was already out. Note: I was not having any issues with my car, other than OC. I was at 54,385K miles when they changed the tensioner and per the invoice, it said "Found T-chain stretched, cambridge screen & tensioner replaced them". It looks like I have the "06k-109-467-K" Tensioner. Can't verify what the Original tensioner was since i didn't ask for it; my build date was Jan. 2009. They also replaced "AD Chain" and "J Bracket".
My Q is : Should other necessary parts have been replaced at this time? I would hate for another part to fail down the road which could have been addressed now. I do have 1 year warranty on this service so I and hoping for the best.

Cheers,

[Poodini]

Hi all- Just want to add my 2-cents to the discussion. I just had my Oil-C stage 2 completed and the dealer SA did suggest that I replace my T-Chain and tensioner and other misc parts.
Total cost was $416 for parts. (I did eventually get a discount but that is the original cost). Labor was "free" I suppose since the engine was already out. Note: I was not having any issues with my car, other than OC. I was at 54,385K miles when they changed the tensioner and per the invoice, it said "Found T-chain stretched, cambridge screen & tensioner replaced them". It looks like I have the "06k-109-467-K" Tensioner. Can't verify what the Original tensioner was since i didn't ask for it; my build date was Jan. 2009. They also replaced "AD Chain" and "J Bracket".
My Q is : Should other necessary parts have been replaced at this time? I would hate for another part to fail down the road which could have been addressed now. I do have 1 year warranty on this service so I and hoping for the best.

Cheers,

It sounds like they simply replaced the parts that were excessively worn or known to be problematic, i.e. your tensioner.

I can't speak to whether your dealership addressed this issue properly vs doing the minimum required. It would be helpful to know, for example, of those cars whose tensioners crapped out, were the other components like the guides and rails also worn down/in play. Speaking as a layman with no mechanical background, I would think a continually moving system like the timing chains should warrant replacing the complimentary parts that work with said system.
I was considering just doing the tensioner only kit. We already know that it's the principle culprit and subsequently has been updated. That said, if you're nearing/at the 90k mark and are planning to hang onto your B8 for at least another 25-50k, it makes sense to just do the full kit. A couple hundred extra is a small amount to pay for peace of mind and greatly increases not only the all around performance of your car, but it greatly reduces the potential for it going south. This especially holds true if you're running an ECU program or other mods to push our engines outside of factory settings.

Just my 2 centavos.



I'm having my kit installed Thursday. Will report back after work is completed.




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[skywalker15]

Looks like this thread has started some serious paranoia..myself included. I've been looking at different kits/tensioners and will be doing this in a month or so. As others have stated, while youre in there you might as well get the chain done. My question is, how far do you really need to take it.

Europaparts has this kit: https://www.europaparts.com/timing-c...0t-tsi-af.html

ECS has this kit: https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4...ing/ES2592683/

@poodini referred me to this kit on ebay as well: http://www.ebay.com/itm/301827892355

For preventative maintenance this seems like overkill to me..? From what I understand, IF the tensioner has stopped doing its job, then the chain would stretch so those two should be replaced. I don't see how the guides could be damaged from this? And only one of the two tensioners needs to be changed?

Obviously when I open it up and inspect it I'll be able to check out the damage if any, but I'd rather have the parts I need, and am trying to determine which ones aren't necessary (ie. replacing valves if there wasn't a failure)

These kits are extensive, but a lot of whats included in them are necessary to do the job even if you're only changing the timing chain tensioner and chain (seals/gaskets etc should all be changed).

To alleviate some of the confusion, chains can stretch even if the tensioner does not fail. This is one of the reasons why tensioners such as this have the capability to "adjust" or "extend" and are not completely static. The guides that the chain rides on can get worn out over time, this will be engine dependent as some other folks saw significant wear with their guides and some have not (i did not see much wear) so you may or may not have to replace them.

As for having to only replace the one tensioner, in short it's because the one we are changing is the only one that fails. There are three tensioners, two for the timing chain and one for the chain from the crank to oil pump. The second timing chain tensioner is essentially a large static bolt, it does not move or adjust and there really isn't any failure mode. The third tensioner is a mechanical spring assembly, again there really isn't a failure mode.

I did not buy a kit when I swapped mine out, what I ended up buying was the timing chain, chain tensioner, and new seals/gaskets which for me was cheaper than buying the whole kit.

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[Marko S]

These kits are extensive, but a lot of whats included in them are necessary to do the job even if you're only changing the timing chain tensioner and chain (seals/gaskets etc should all be changed).

To alleviate some of the confusion, chains can stretch even if the tensioner does not fail. This is one of the reasons why tensioners such as this have the capability to "adjust" or "extend" and are not completely static. The guides that the chain rides on can get worn out over time, this will be engine dependent as some other folks saw significant wear with their guides and some have not (i did not see much wear) so you may or may not have to replace them.

As for having to only replace the one tensioner, in short it's because the one we are changing is the only one that fails. There are three tensioners, two for the timing chain and one for the chain from the crank to oil pump. The second timing chain tensioner is essentially a large static bolt, it does not move or adjust and there really isn't any failure mode. The third tensioner is a mechanical spring assembly, again there really isn't a failure mode.

I did not buy a kit when I swapped mine out, what I ended up buying was the timing chain, chain tensioner, and new seals/gaskets which for me was cheaper than buying the whole kit.

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That makes sense. Europaparts allows you to configure what you want to buy. What gaskets did you replace?

[Poodini]

All three dealers that I talked to acted like I was nuts for thinking the part needed swapped out. All suggested that some other issue would cause the failure and there would be plenty of warning signs. "we will do it, but you are spending money for no benefit" type answer.

I changed the tensioner myself this past weekend.

More power to you Blbroo for taking on the job yourself! I on the other hand wouldn't want to even consider diy'ing it! Hats off sir!
I'm having my local shop do the kit install tomorrow. I'll ask if he can take a couple pics once he's got it apart and see how the components look after 110k!


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[skywalker15]

That makes sense. Europaparts allows you to configure what you want to buy. What gaskets did you replace?

I replaced the gasket for the upper timing cover (black plastic cover) and the circular gasket for the sensor that goes through that cover. Also you will need some gasket sealant for the lower timing cover (black metal cover). Be careful taking the lower metal cover off, I know some on here have managed to crack or break the flange meaning you'll need to buy a new one. If you take your time and use a flat head screwdriver to slowly work your way around the cover to separate it from the block you should be fine.

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[Marko S]

I replaced the gasket for the upper timing cover (black plastic cover) and the circular gasket for the sensor that goes through that cover. Also you will need some gasket sealant for the lower timing cover (black metal cover). Be careful taking the lower metal cover off, I know some on here have managed to crack or break the flange meaning you'll need to buy a new one. If you take your time and use a flat head screwdriver to slowly work your way around the cover to separate it from the block you should be fine.

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Ok thanks! I saw like 10 different gaskets on that website and didnt think id need to replace half of them but that helps alot! I read somewhere (or saw a vid) that said you should replace the cover so was going to do that. But it makes sense if youre careful and dont bend it you shouldnt have problems.

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[STA4]

Update on my situation. They're covering the stage 2 work and new chain/tensioner, but any extra parts and labor are my responsibility. I approved an inspection of the head (4-5 hrs) and got news back today that valves were bent and the head is damaged. They said a new one is like $4600, but they will look into finding a used one for me.

[skywalker15]

Update on my situation. They're covering the stage 2 work and new chain/tensioner, but any extra parts and labor are my responsibility. I approved an inspection of the head (4-5 hrs) and got news back today that valves were bent and the head is damaged. They said a new one is like $4600, but they will look into finding a used one for me.

That's both good and bad news, that sucks the head was damaged. At least you got them to agree to cover some of the work. Sorry man.

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[nycaudi]

Update on my situation. They're covering the stage 2 work and new chain/tensioner, but any extra parts and labor are my responsibility. I approved an inspection of the head (4-5 hrs) and got news back today that valves were bent and the head is damaged. They said a new one is like $4600, but they will look into finding a used one for me.

Thats fucked up. Sorry man and good luck with whatever you choose to do.

[kaz02a4]

Checked my tensioner today. No pictures for you guys, because it's a hard spot to get into. But just some information:

-MY 2012
-In service date of 3/2012
-No information on the build date (where can I find this?)
-Tensioner model N or AB
--It has that black ring with the two metal lips around it (on the right)



It's impossible to see any text from the small window in the timing cover. All you can really tell is the geometry and the material (color, metal vs. plastic, etc.). That's how I determined which tensioner I have. So 2012 A4s are not safe, at least from the data point I have. If one of you can point me in the direction for a build date, that would help fill in some more gaps here.

[nycaudi]

Checked my tensioner today. No pictures for you guys, because it's a hard spot to get into. But just some information:

-MY 2012
-In service date of 3/2012
-No information on the build date (where can I find this?)
-Tensioner model N or AB
--It has that black ring with the two metal lips around it (on the right)



It's impossible to see any text from the small window in the timing cover. All you can really tell is the geometry and the material (color, metal vs. plastic, etc.). That's how I determined which tensioner I have. So 2012 A4s are not safe, at least from the data point I have. If one of you can point me in the direction for a build date, that would help fill in some more gaps here.

this shit happened to me....

i was in a parking lot with one of my friends and he said:

"kick it, KICK IT"

so i went from 0 to about 80 and when i hit the brakes, the engine shut down and i couldnt turn it back on. Dealer towed vehicle back to their service department and after about 2 days of their inspection as to why that happened they said they were rebuilding my engine at no cost to me. This was maybe december of 2012 and since then i have spent close to 11 grand on repairs out of my pocket.

Right now car runs great after rebuilding tranny and dropping in a new turbo, but am i worried that this tensioner shit rears its ugly head again? fuck yes....

Considering jumping over to lexus.....but also want that 400 hp ttrs thats coming stateside next year. If you actually read the reviews on brand reliability, audi is on top as of last year. Heres hoping that this keeps up, because i definitely want that '17 ttrs

[nycaudi]

http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...report-card-on

[JD23]

Audi was ranked third in reliability, but first overall when considering both road test scores and reliability. Frankly, I think CR will be proven wrong and Audi will drop in reliability in a few years. It is inconceivable to me that the supposed third most reliable brand could have produced the B8 2.0T only 4-5 years ago, which makes me think CR is using a limited data set to make this determination. Also, the need to cut costs in the wake of the diesel scandal will increase the temptation to cut corners.

[JD23]

-No information on the build date (where can I find this?)

The build date for mine is shown on a sticker located below the driver side door. Open the door and look down and you should see it.

[awdconnor]

i hate threads like this... makes me scared to own this car :/

[nycaudi]

Audi was ranked third in reliability, but first overall when considering both road test scores and reliability. Frankly, I think CR will be proven wrong and Audi will drop in reliability in a few years. It is inconceivable to me that the supposed third most reliable brand could have produced the B8 2.0T only 4-5 years ago, which makes me think CR is using a limited data set to make this determination. Also, the need to cut costs in the wake of the diesel scandal will increase the temptation to cut corners.

you do realize the v.a.g conglomerate makes tons of money from other brands....numerous supercars included? i doubt that they will regress. it should keep them on their toes if anything

[JD23]

you do realize the v.a.g conglomerate makes tons of money from other brands....numerous supercars included? i doubt that they will regress. it should keep them on their toes if anything

Audi is VW's most profitable brand by far, with Porsche a distant second. Bentley, Lambo, and Bugatti combined are inconsequential to VAG's overall profitability.

Take a look at VAG's financial statements before dismissing the effect of Dieselgate; the cost of Dieselgate in the US is estimated at $18 billion - larger than a normal year's operating income. A minimum of 1.5 years of profit is erased by this scandal and the company's market cap dropped by 25%. Matthias Muller has announced that VAG is aggressively reducing costs and canceling projects not considered critical.

[nycaudi]

Audi is VW's most profitable brand by far, with Porsche a distant second. Bentley, Lambo, and Bugatti combined are inconsequential to VAG's overall profitability.

Take a look at VAG's financial statements before dismissing the effect of Dieselgate; the cost of Dieselgate in the US is estimated at $18 billion - larger than a normal year's operating income. A minimum of 1.5 years of profit is erased by this scandal and the company's market cap dropped by 25%. Matthias Muller has announced that VAG is aggressively reducing costs and canceling projects not considered critical.

i see vags blackeye as a temporary setback. Their Mxx platform could bring them back into neutral financial territory in less than 5 years, as it absorbs the massive payout that its currently being subjected to by reducing manufacturing costs on many fronts. the paycuts and frozen bonuses will also aid them to bounce back. In the long run i feel this setback could make them uphold a transparent standpoint since they will be under the gun as far as their practices go. this can only benefit the consumer ....and improve their standing in 3 to 5 years

[Poodini]

i see vags blackeye as a temporary setback. Their Mxx platform could bring them back into neutral financial territory in less than 5 years, as it absorbs the massive payout that its currently being subjected to by reducing manufacturing costs on many fronts. the paycuts and frozen bonuses will also aid them to bounce back. In the long run i feel this setback could make them uphold a transparent standpoint since they will be under the gun as far as their practices go. this can only benefit the consumer ....and improve their standing in 3 to 5 years

PREACH!

Having personally gone through a total of 3 turbo replacements since I bought the car in 2009 (2 of the 3 covered by warranty, 3rd pled my case to AoNA for goodwill repair), and not to mention reading all the horror stories of fellow AZ'ers with their oil consumption issues, I'm with you on this one.


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[Poodini]

FINALLY got the TC/Tensioner kit installed! Of course, not without hitting a snag right out of the gate, of course..

My mechanic ([email protected]) rang me up within an hour of them starting. "Hey, did you kit include the gaskets/seals assoc with this job? There's caked on oil all over the front of the engine. Would be wise to replace them now. I can have parts arrive tomorrow/Monday the latest." since it's my DD, I had to act fast! Fortunately my local Audi dealership about 10 mins away from office had everything needed AND came out to $33 out the door! Bonus, since Jon had an account with them, their courier drove it to the shop within an hour!
The rest was straightforward enough and got the car back, same day w time to spare!


So, I asked if they felt the orig parts were pretty worn after 110k+ on it. They examined the parts and thought it actually held up pretty well! Couldn't tell if chains had stretched but, in any event, I'm glad I took care of this knowing I'll have peace of mind!

Shout outs to Jon, Victoria, and crew @ Trackspec Motors! Jon's background is primarily Lotus and BMW CERT trained but works on our rigs w equal aplomb. The shop is meticulous, state of the art equipment, and non-stuffy/non-machismo attitude is a breath of fresh air! So, for all you Bay Area heads looking for an 034 Motorsports backup/alternative, hit them up @ trackspecauto.com
510) 403-1161

Also shouts out to Kdaffy, Blbroo, and others here who've contributed to helping me navigate this!

🏼️


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[Poodini]

Almost forgot!

Thanks also to Jeff @ Parts2Audi.com for providing the kit! All OE parts, including the tensioner with IT stamp indicating made in Italy. So now she's got a little Lambo in her! Lol

Take away from the repair though was DEFINITELY GET ALL THE GASKETS & SEALS necessary for the job!

eBay link to the kit:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/301827892355

Jeff will take care of you and cost came out to $400 drop-shipped NEXT DAY!


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[Allowencer]

I'll add to this mix.

I called a very reputable shop in my area called C's Autohaus, that everyone I know that owns a VAG/BMW/Mercedes car takes their cars to, and asked them about replacing my timing chain. They told me that as long as the tensioner has been replaced with the updated one (mine was when the oil consumption service was done and pistons/bearings were replaced as well as chain guides,) that they do not feel the chain needs replaced at all. They have several of these cars in the 160k+ miles range that they regularly service, and they said they've never needed to replace a chain on any of these motors as long as the tensioner is updated.

They could have easily told me to bring it in and take my money, but they went as far to say that they felt I'd be wasting my money if I did it, but they'd happily do it if I insisted on having it done.

It seems you will always find differing opinions lol. Not sharing to purposely add to confusion... just throwing this in to offer another perspective.

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This is true to an extent. However, if you are upwards in mileage, I'd say anywhere from 90-100k+, do yourself the favor and replace EVERYTHING in there. Guides, chain, you name it. Do the balance shaft chain circuit as well. Look at the pics I posted, it stretches and that causes more slack and strain on the whole motor. Perfect example, sorry blbroo, but look at his engine, he replaced only the tensioner. Look how far out the tensioner's piston has to extend to provide proper tension on the circuit. Once it hits it's limit, there's no more capacity to provide tension. That means the chain will forgo added stress and will break. If you have modified the driveline in any fashion - don't cut corners and swap the chain. You own an Audi, don't do maintenance on it like you would a beater.

In addition, there is a newer chain; it has been revised. It has been proven to wear / stretch less.

2009 with 60k miles. No start, tried twice. Pulled code and got P0016. Happened just after I failed the stage 2 oil consumption test. Car is TD1 and they are refusing to cover it.

Took it to independent shop, they pulled the upper cover off and this is what they saw:





As you can see, the chain is actually sitting on top of the teeth.

Shoo will replace the parts and re-time. Then they'll perform a leak down test to see if any of the valves were damaged before pulling the head. Wish me luck...

^^^^^

Ouch. They should try to safely identify how far off timing occurred. If you are 1-2 teeth off, you will more than likely be OK. Good luck man.

That is scary! Ok, guys. I am at 46k miles and no tune. Can i change out the tensioner and leave the belt? Chain shouldn't stretch unless it is put unload higher then normal loads right?
Actually, what is causing the chain to stretch? If the tensioner gets loose over time, shouldn't relieve stress on the chain?

At 46k, you're good to just swap the tensioner.

The chain will naturally stretch over time. Modifying the driveline only increases the impact on the chain and the additional strain which will cause it to further stretch. As I mentioned previously, the newer chain is a revised one which will stretch a lot less.

You can change out the tensioner and leave the chain and not replace it. My recommendation is if you're in there already you may as well replace the chain too while also inspecting the guides. If you decide to only swap out the tensioner you'd still be fine for many more miles, I just prefer to do preventative maintenance like that if I'm already in the middle of a job anyway.

The chains will stretch over time even with the natural, designed stress of the system. In my case, I had 130k miles when I swapped everything and the "stretch" on my chain was fairly minimal when comparing it to the new one I put on.

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I mostly agree with what skywalker said; however, I still stand by replacing all of the components in the circuit, especially if you intend on keeping the car. I would concur that by just replacing the tensioner you will get more miles out of the chain, but how much? 20k, 50k? 75k? Under what type of load? Those are all factors / variables I'd rather not dance with and just do the job right the first time.

There was significant stretch on the chain when I did mine. Keep in mind, any stretch beyond 5mm is considered significant'. You can also measure this at the top once the chain is installed. I show how to measure that in my build thread.

I spoke with my dealership in Toronto yesterday about this. First off, they told me that the whole front end needs to be removed for them to inspect....... after I told him that they could look through the inspection hole, they said they'd call me back...then called and restated the front end needs to be taken apart. Might need to look into changing dealerships...

An they quoted me $1500 to do the job.

I woulda LOL'd in their face. That's a dealership that only does things by the book and nothing else. Rookies.

[Allowencer]

All three dealers that I talked to acted like I was nuts for thinking the part needed swapped out. All suggested that some other issue would cause the failure and there would be plenty of warning signs. "we will do it, but you are spending money for no benefit" type answer.

I changed the tensioner myself this past weekend.

Another dealership I woulda laughed at and showed them the finer details in all of this. Including the class action lawsuit.

OK so who on the board is willing to fly/drive to NJ and help me do this? The work doesn't bother me at all, setting the timing is what scares me. I have all the tools except for the "special" ones... Name a price because $1200-1400 for "maintenance" is not normal on a "lifetime" part in my opinion. Audi needs to fuck themselves.

I might lol. I doubt my wife will let me know as our daughter is now 9 days old. Maybe in a month or so if you can wait that long.

I've also talked guys through it over SMS, phone, etc. I helped blbroo a bit too via text, but he just swapped the tensioner. That's a piece of cake alone. You will need the special tools I have mentioned many times for sure.

Since I just replaced the tensioner, there was no timing issue to worry about. The crank pulley can only go back on in one orientation. Allowencer scolded me for not replacing the chains, but I had numerous aftermarket audi shops say it wasn't necessary if the tensioner hadn't failed yet.

Why didn't you change out the chain again?? LOL You shoulda...
Did you reveal to those shops your mods, the K04 you want to get and mileage you're at as well? Just sayin.

Following up with what blbroo said, you don't necessarily have to change the chain therefore you won't have to re-time everything. Like I said in a previous post, chains in any motor will "stretch" over time, however that stretch is very minimal so you'd probably be fine only changing the tensioner. The difference between the new chain and old chain for me after 130k miles and the old one going through a failure was very small.

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I already commented on this; I'll echo again, I highly recommend anyone doing this to replace it all. It's not worth cutting corners for a few hundred dollars in the long run.

How were you guides or did you not check for scoring/wear? I feel like if I'm going to go through all the work of opening up the front of the motor i might as well change every thing in there to latest and greatest parts.

Mine were worn decently and a few had gouges taken out of them from the slack in the chain.
Yes, your last sentence is the mindset you need to have. Spoken properly.

[Allowencer]

I checked all my guides and ended up not replacing them. Mine were still in very good shape and there was very very little wear. I know others have seen pretty significant wear so it all depends I guess.

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Did you actually measure them with a caliper? Mine were worn; at least 0.08" on majority of the guides. Did you not have a lot of miles? That would be the only saving grace.

I haven't heard that kind of noise yet, and what do you think the smell of fuel could be coming from? Could it just be my injectors? That wouldn't explain the ticking though
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Agreed; injectors.

After reading the first link I think it might be my injector seal because one of them popped off when I was doing some carbon cleaning. I'm just wondering why I'm just now starting to smell it, when procedure was done on June 23rd.

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Yep, that will do it. You'll need the proper tool to install new Teflon seals on your injectors.

Looks like this thread has started some serious paranoia..myself included. I've been looking at different kits/tensioners and will be doing this in a month or so. As others have stated, while youre in there you might as well get the chain done. My question is, how far do you really need to take it.

Europaparts has this kit: https://www.europaparts.com/timing-c...0t-tsi-af.html

ECS has this kit: https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4...ing/ES2592683/

@poodini referred me to this kit on ebay as well: http://www.ebay.com/itm/301827892355

For preventative maintenance this seems like overkill to me..? From what I understand, IF the tensioner has stopped doing its job, then the chain would stretch so those two should be replaced. I don't see how the guides could be damaged from this? And only one of the two tensioners needs to be changed?

Obviously when I open it up and inspect it I'll be able to check out the damage if any, but I'd rather have the parts I need, and am trying to determine which ones aren't necessary (ie. replacing valves if there wasn't a failure)

When the tensioner goes bad, timing fails. It's not when the tensioner goes bad, the chain starts/begins to stretch. The tensioner has a piston, which only has a certain amount of throw to it. Once maximized, it can no longer provide proper tension on the timing circuit. Add in a motor that has been modified and is now producing more torque (that's really the key, not HP so much), it's only going to accelerate wear further.

Guides wear as the chain rides 'right' on them and oil in the front timing area is only delivered by 'splash'. Nothing directly delivers oil to the chains. That being the case, there will be friction and wear; especially over time.

Hi all- Just want to add my 2-cents to the discussion. I just had my Oil-C stage 2 completed and the dealer SA did suggest that I replace my T-Chain and tensioner and other misc parts.
Total cost was $416 for parts. (I did eventually get a discount but that is the original cost). Labor was "free" I suppose since the engine was already out. Note: I was not having any issues with my car, other than OC. I was at 54,385K miles when they changed the tensioner and per the invoice, it said "Found T-chain stretched, cambridge screen & tensioner replaced them". It looks like I have the "06k-109-467-K" Tensioner. Can't verify what the Original tensioner was since i didn't ask for it; my build date was Jan. 2009. They also replaced "AD Chain" and "J Bracket".
My Q is : Should other necessary parts have been replaced at this time? I would hate for another part to fail down the road which could have been addressed now. I do have 1 year warranty on this service so I and hoping for the best.

Cheers,

You are now running the latest tensioner and chain. You should be good to go for a long time now and should be able to sleep well at night. I commend you for doing this while you had the OC issue resolved. Also glad to hear your dealership did not charge you labor as they have to re-establish timing anyways when re-assembling the motor.

[Allowencer]

It sounds like they simply replaced the parts that were excessively worn or known to be problematic, i.e. your tensioner.

I can't speak to whether your dealership addressed this issue properly vs doing the minimum required. It would be helpful to know, for example, of those cars whose tensioners crapped out, were the other components like the guides and rails also worn down/in play. Speaking as a layman with no mechanical background, I would think a continually moving system like the timing chains should warrant replacing the complimentary parts that work with said system.
I was considering just doing the tensioner only kit. We already know that it's the principle culprit and subsequently has been updated. That said, if you're nearing/at the 90k mark and are planning to hang onto your B8 for at least another 25-50k, it makes sense to just do the full kit. A couple hundred extra is a small amount to pay for peace of mind and greatly increases not only the all around performance of your car, but it greatly reduces the potential for it going south. This especially holds true if you're running an ECU program or other mods to push our engines outside of factory settings.

Just my 2 centavos.



I'm having my kit installed Thursday. Will report back after work is completed.
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Spoken well and I'm glad you ponied up and are replacing all of the components in the circuit.

These kits are extensive, but a lot of whats included in them are necessary to do the job even if you're only changing the timing chain tensioner and chain (seals/gaskets etc should all be changed).

To alleviate some of the confusion, chains can stretch even if the tensioner does not fail. This is one of the reasons why tensioners such as this have the capability to "adjust" or "extend" and are not completely static. The guides that the chain rides on can get worn out over time, this will be engine dependent as some other folks saw significant wear with their guides and some have not (i did not see much wear) so you may or may not have to replace them.

As for having to only replace the one tensioner, in short it's because the one we are changing is the only one that fails. There are three tensioners, two for the timing chain and one for the chain from the crank to oil pump. The second timing chain tensioner is essentially a large static bolt, it does not move or adjust and there really isn't any failure mode. The third tensioner is a mechanical spring assembly, again there really isn't a failure mode.

I did not buy a kit when I swapped mine out, what I ended up buying was the timing chain, chain tensioner, and new seals/gaskets which for me was cheaper than buying the whole kit.

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I need to correct you on some areas here. There are 3 tensioners, yes; however, only 1 for the cam timing circuit. There's one for the oil pump circuit and one for the balance shaft circuit. The balance shaft circuit one is static; the oil pump one operates off of a metal spring. The oil pump chain barely stretches as it has little to no tension on it - it's only driving an oil pump.
I swapped my balance shaft chain and that stretched a few mm; I think 4mm IIRC. That's 'OK', but I went ahead and did it anyways.

I replaced the gasket for the upper timing cover (black plastic cover) and the circular gasket for the sensor that goes through that cover. Also you will need some gasket sealant for the lower timing cover (black metal cover). Be careful taking the lower metal cover off, I know some on here have managed to crack or break the flange meaning you'll need to buy a new one. If you take your time and use a flat head screwdriver to slowly work your way around the cover to separate it from the block you should be fine.
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You should have replaced more than just those parts. Others you should have replaced:
- Crank bolt with o-ring (this is a TTY bolt)
- All lower timing cover bolts (all are TTY bolts)
- Exhaust cam bolt and spacer (this is a TTY bolt)
- O-ring inside the cam bridge / cam adjustment assembly where the INA / intake valve bolts in

With the front cover, check the oil drainage gutter; ensure there wasn't any contact between the chain and cover. This happens when there is extra slack on the chain. Also, the newer timing cover has been revised to help with oil drainage (a different gutter system).

Update on my situation. They're covering the stage 2 work and new chain/tensioner, but any extra parts and labor are my responsibility. I approved an inspection of the head (4-5 hrs) and got news back today that valves were bent and the head is damaged. They said a new one is like $4600, but they will look into finding a used one for me.

Ouch. I know a brand new, OEM head is like $1,500 but that's without any valvetrain (valves, valvesprings, keepers, retainers). Might want to look at Integrated Engineering's option if you want to go that extra mile!

Ok thanks! I saw like 10 different gaskets on that website and didnt think id need to replace half of them but that helps alot! I read somewhere (or saw a vid) that said you should replace the cover so was going to do that. But it makes sense if youre careful and dont bend it you shouldnt have problems.
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You don't have to replace the lower timing inspection cover if there isn't any damage; either by removal of if that gutter has had contact made to it. If you want the latest revision cover too, which helps with oil drainage, then you would want to elect to get one.

[Allowencer]

Checked my tensioner today. No pictures for you guys, because it's a hard spot to get into. But just some information:

-MY 2012
-In service date of 3/2012
-No information on the build date (where can I find this?)
-Tensioner model N or AB
--It has that black ring with the two metal lips around it (on the right)



It's impossible to see any text from the small window in the timing cover. All you can really tell is the geometry and the material (color, metal vs. plastic, etc.). That's how I determined which tensioner I have. So 2012 A4s are not safe, at least from the data point I have. If one of you can point me in the direction for a build date, that would help fill in some more gaps here.

FINALLY got the TC/Tensioner kit installed! Of course, not without hitting a snag right out of the gate, of course..

My mechanic ([email protected]) rang me up within an hour of them starting. "Hey, did you kit include the gaskets/seals assoc with this job? There's caked on oil all over the front of the engine. Would be wise to replace them now. I can have parts arrive tomorrow/Monday the latest." since it's my DD, I had to act fast! Fortunately my local Audi dealership about 10 mins away from office had everything needed AND came out to $33 out the door! Bonus, since Jon had an account with them, their courier drove it to the shop within an hour!
The rest was straightforward enough and got the car back, same day w time to spare!


So, I asked if they felt the orig parts were pretty worn after 110k+ on it. They examined the parts and thought it actually held up pretty well! Couldn't tell if chains had stretched but, in any event, I'm glad I took care of this knowing I'll have peace of mind!

Shout outs to Jon, Victoria, and crew @ Trackspec Motors! Jon's background is primarily Lotus and BMW CERT trained but works on our rigs w equal aplomb. The shop is meticulous, state of the art equipment, and non-stuffy/non-machismo attitude is a breath of fresh air! So, for all you Bay Area heads looking for an 034 Motorsports backup/alternative, hit them up @ trackspecauto.com
510) 403-1161

Also shouts out to Kdaffy, Blbroo, and others here who've contributed to helping me navigate this!

🏼️


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I gotta call out, that shop DID NOT place timing back on per the timing marks. You can see it for yourself on the exhaust cam. Goes to show you the shop would rather take speed over complete quality.

Not saying they did it wrong as they paint marker'd their own markings; I just hate seeing things half-assed / shortcut through.

In addition, their response to your ask on how the other components faired - they didn't 'actually' check by measuring, they eye balled it I'm sure.

[Allowencer]

To keep your timing chain or replace with new?

I'm getting tired of the opinions being posted and others calling 'shops' for further obscure opinions if it's ok to keep your cam timing chain or replace it with a new one. Other than these facts to replace with a new one:
- Won't be stretched
- New design which can take more abuse

No one has any clout around providing direction to it. Here are your facts and source of truth:

Measure the timing span across the sprockets (Spec is 124mm-127mm):


Then measure from the outside center bar of the cam bridge to intake timing mark (Spec is 61-64mm):



If you fall within spec, you're fine. If you're leaning towards the outer edge of that measurement - your call your car.

/end of discussion on the cam timing chain

[ddun]

Have MY 09 with 70k miles and had this done at an independent shop, mainly went in for front main seal change and reseal valve cover (never did stage 1 oil consumption, and had valve cover leak in cylinder 3). Had them change out tensioner and serpentine belt while they were in there.

I'm pretty much maxed out on mods and I am way passed warranty. So I decided to do this for peace of mind, and possibly preventing myself from a future blown engine.

Parts, labor, and tax initially was $928 but decided to do valve cover reseal while they had access to the timing components, ended up with $1300 to include all of the above.

Shops says they didn't see any chain stretch, and haven't seen any chain stretch on all the cars they've done (mainly transverse 2.0t). But again most of their customers are probably low mileage and doing it proactively to prevent any catastrophic failures.

Up until this point I have done all the work and maintenance on this car, just didn't have the time and patience this time around. Some will say it is an expensive job for something we shouldn't have to do, but the price was worth the peace of mind especially since I like to drive the shit out of this k04 100oct on w/m

[Poodini]

To keep your timing chain or replace with new?

I'm getting tired of the opinions being posted and others calling 'shops' for further obscure opinions if it's ok to keep your cam timing chain or replace it with a new one. Other than these facts to replace with a new one:
- Won't be stretched
- New design which can take more abuse

No one has any clout around providing direction to it. Here are your facts and source of truth:

If you fall within spec, you're fine. If you're leaning towards the outer edge of that measurement - your call your car.

/end of discussion on the cam timing chain

**Allowencer,

I realized I posted 'before' pics by mistake. I have all the orig used parts since they packed it up and saved it for me.
I have zero reason to suspect they did me dirty here. Unlike some of you who are far more adept mechanically than I, the mere thought of me trying to remove the entire front end to get to the timing assembly is laughable! Plus, I simply don't have the time! 5 year old twins with one on the Autism Spectrum all but negates any chance I have of noodling around in the garage. Unless of course I decided to start a meth habit so I can work while everyone's asleep..

After having gone through the whole ordeal of having to replace my turbo FOR THE 3rd TIME in 6 years this past December has made me a lot more wary. The fact that I had to plead my case with AoNA because I was past their 70k limitation for a known waste gate issue they still won't admit should have been a recall item. Fortunately they agreed on a 'goodwill fix' (the turbo was free/I had to pay for labor to install).
That said combined with reading all the horror stories of older version tensioners failing, I decided to do the kit and I'm glad I did. Was it expensive, yes. Could I have continued driving on the og parts, pretty good likelihood. How long before problems arise...NO ONE CAN PREDICT. Therefore, since I plan to hang onto it a few more years, this is an investment and gives me some peace of mind.
Well worth it imho.


Sent from my iPhone usingTapatalk

[richberry01]

As many of you, I'm becoming quite paranoid with this whole ordeal. I have a 2011 with almost 70K and the last thing I want to consider is replacing my engine due to the tensioner failure. Less anxiety producing, yet anxiety producing none the less is forking out $1000 and having downtime before it's needed. Are there any warning signs prior to the CEL? I have the rattling on cold start in the morning just like in this thread:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ttling+startup

Anyone experience this prior to the tensioner failing?

[Allowencer]

Checked my tensioner today. No pictures for you guys, because it's a hard spot to get into. But just some information:

-MY 2012
-In service date of 3/2012
-No information on the build date (where can I find this?)
-Tensioner model N or AB
--It has that black ring with the two metal lips around it (on the right)



It's impossible to see any text from the small window in the timing cover. All you can really tell is the geometry and the material (color, metal vs. plastic, etc.). That's how I determined which tensioner I have. So 2012 A4s are not safe, at least from the data point I have. If one of you can point me in the direction for a build date, that would help fill in some more gaps here.

FINALLY got the TC/Tensioner kit installed! Of course, not without hitting a snag right out of the gate, of course..

My mechanic ([email protected]) rang me up within an hour of them starting. "Hey, did you kit include the gaskets/seals assoc with this job? There's caked on oil all over the front of the engine. Would be wise to replace them now. I can have parts arrive tomorrow/Monday the latest." since it's my DD, I had to act fast! Fortunately my local Audi dealership about 10 mins away from office had everything needed AND came out to $33 out the door! Bonus, since Jon had an account with them, their courier drove it to the shop within an hour!
The rest was straightforward enough and got the car back, same day w time to spare!


So, I asked if they felt the orig parts were pretty worn after 110k+ on it. They examined the parts and thought it actually held up pretty well! Couldn't tell if chains had stretched but, in any event, I'm glad I took care of this knowing I'll have peace of mind!

Shout outs to Jon, Victoria, and crew @ Trackspec Motors! Jon's background is primarily Lotus and BMW CERT trained but works on our rigs w equal aplomb. The shop is meticulous, state of the art equipment, and non-stuffy/non-machismo attitude is a breath of fresh air! So, for all you Bay Area heads looking for an 034 Motorsports backup/alternative, hit them up @ trackspecauto.com
510) 403-1161

Also shouts out to Kdaffy, Blbroo, and others here who've contributed to helping me navigate this!

🏼️


Sent from my iPhone usingTapatalk

**Allowencer,

I realized I posted 'before' pics by mistake. I have all the orig used parts since they packed it up and saved it for me.
I have zero reason to suspect they did me dirty here. Unlike some of you who are far more adept mechanically than I, the mere thought of me trying to remove the entire front end to get to the timing assembly is laughable! Plus, I simply don't have the time! 5 year old twins with one on the Autism Spectrum all but negates any chance I have of noodling around in the garage. Unless of course I decided to start a meth habit so I can work while everyone's asleep..

After having gone through the whole ordeal of having to replace my turbo FOR THE 3rd TIME in 6 years this past December has made me a lot more wary. The fact that I had to plead my case with AoNA because I was past their 70k limitation for a known waste gate issue they still won't admit should have been a recall item. Fortunately they agreed on a 'goodwill fix' (the turbo was free/I had to pay for labor to install).
That said combined with reading all the horror stories of older version tensioners failing, I decided to do the kit and I'm glad I did. Was it expensive, yes. Could I have continued driving on the og parts, pretty good likelihood. How long before problems arise...NO ONE CAN PREDICT. Therefore, since I plan to hang onto it a few more years, this is an investment and gives me some peace of mind.
Well worth it imho.


Sent from my iPhone usingTapatalk

Ah, that's 100x better to know that. I would edit your post and place a disclaimer on that pic so no one thinks that's the 'finished' look. I would ask them if they final measured the timing chain TDC marks. It's the pics I posted earlier. They 'should' have done that at the very least. I hear ya on the kids, my wife and I just had our first, a girl, 2 Wed's ago. With work and her, I don't know what sleep is; I know what naps are though

Since you have the old tensioner, can you do me a favor? Take off that black retaining ring on the tensioner. Keep it orientated with the top facing upward. With the ring off, you will see an oval metal pawl. Remove that pawl, flip it over and take a macro pic of the underside of the pawl and post it here. Just like what blbroo did.

I completely agree with you and you made a very smart decision to replace all of those parts. You summed it up well and I hope others digest what you said and absorb some of that wisdom.

- - - Updated - - -

Checked my tensioner today. No pictures for you guys, because it's a hard spot to get into. But just some information:

-MY 2012
-In service date of 3/2012
-No information on the build date (where can I find this?)
-Tensioner model N or AB
--It has that black ring with the two metal lips around it (on the right)



It's impossible to see any text from the small window in the timing cover. All you can really tell is the geometry and the material (color, metal vs. plastic, etc.). That's how I determined which tensioner I have. So 2012 A4s are not safe, at least from the data point I have. If one of you can point me in the direction for a build date, that would help fill in some more gaps here.

FINALLY got the TC/Tensioner kit installed! Of course, not without hitting a snag right out of the gate, of course..

My mechanic ([email protected]) rang me up within an hour of them starting. "Hey, did you kit include the gaskets/seals assoc with this job? There's caked on oil all over the front of the engine. Would be wise to replace them now. I can have parts arrive tomorrow/Monday the latest." since it's my DD, I had to act fast! Fortunately my local Audi dealership about 10 mins away from office had everything needed AND came out to $33 out the door! Bonus, since Jon had an account with them, their courier drove it to the shop within an hour!
The rest was straightforward enough and got the car back, same day w time to spare!


So, I asked if they felt the orig parts were pretty worn after 110k+ on it. They examined the parts and thought it actually held up pretty well! Couldn't tell if chains had stretched but, in any event, I'm glad I took care of this knowing I'll have peace of mind!

Shout outs to Jon, Victoria, and crew @ Trackspec Motors! Jon's background is primarily Lotus and BMW CERT trained but works on our rigs w equal aplomb. The shop is meticulous, state of the art equipment, and non-stuffy/non-machismo attitude is a breath of fresh air! So, for all you Bay Area heads looking for an 034 Motorsports backup/alternative, hit them up @ trackspecauto.com
510) 403-1161

Also shouts out to Kdaffy, Blbroo, and others here who've contributed to helping me navigate this!

🏼️


Sent from my iPhone usingTapatalk

As many of you, I'm becoming quite paranoid with this whole ordeal. I have a 2011 with almost 70K and the last thing I want to consider is replacing my engine due to the tensioner failure. Less anxiety producing, yet anxiety producing none the less is forking out $1000 and having downtime before it's needed. Are there any warning signs prior to the CEL? I have the rattling on cold start in the morning just like in this thread:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ttling+startup

Anyone experience this prior to the tensioner failing?

I had zero signs before mine went. The tensioner will fail to maintain tension on an ignition start - that's the failure.

[Poodini]

Ah, that's 100x better to know that. I would edit your post and place a disclaimer on that pic so no one thinks that's the 'finished' look. I would ask them if they final measured the timing chain TDC marks. It's the pics I posted earlier. They 'should' have done that at the very least. I hear ya on the kids, my wife and I just had our first, a girl, 2 Wed's ago. With work and her, I don't know what sleep is; I know what naps are though

Since you have the old tensioner, can you do me a favor? Take off that black retaining ring on the tensioner. Keep it orientated with the top facing upward. With the ring off, you will see an oval metal pawl. Remove that pawl, flip it over and take a macro pic of the underside of the pawl and post it here. Just like what blbroo did.

I completely agree with you and you made a very smart decision to replace all of those parts. You summed it up well and I hope others digest what you said and absorb some of that wisdom.

- - - Updated - - -







I had zero signs before mine went. The tensioner will fail to maintain tension on an ignition start - that's the failure.

I don't know if I'd call it wisdom so much as reading on forums just as these and gaining knowledge through members like yourself, Kdaffy, Blbroo, Eurythmics, Smellie, et.al.m
Since I've had a 'renaissance' and renewed appreciation for the car over the last year+, AZ has been, hands down, my go-to resource!

I'll get the pics you requested up when I get a sec. Congrats as well on the new arrival! As I'm sure you've already ascertained, YOUR LIFE AS YOU KNOW IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME!

🏼️


Sent from my iPhone usingTapatalk

[DPD314]

Im at 85k miles - scheduled my car to get the tensioner replaced next week. I need that piece of mind that this car is gonna last me a bit longer.

[Captain Amazing]

How much is it going to cost you?

[Anthony1491]

Just a heads up to anyone who also has the oil consumption issue, I just got mine fixed and they replaced the tensioner and timing chain free of charge. My SA said that normally they can't fix it on it's own for free, but when they take everything apart to fix the oil consumption issue they can say they found additional damage to the tensioner & chain and get it fixed that way. I'm in canada as well so it might be different in the states

[The Infiltrator]

Just a heads up to anyone who also has the oil consumption issue, I just got mine fixed and they replaced the tensioner and timing chain free of charge. My SA said that normally they can't fix it on it's own for free, but when they take everything apart to fix the oil consumption issue they can say they found additional damage to the tensioner & chain and get it fixed that way. I'm in canada as well so it might be different in the states

lol, I will be asking about that when I go back next weekend. Glad it worked out for you man!