THE Timing Chain Tensioner Failure Thread

[jfo]

Were there any improvements to the cam bridge screen part/design in later years? (B8.5?)

It looks like 5 versions of the bridge, with K being the current release. Mine is J, which was installed early 2015.

[audrobotic]

The one I received is the same as the one in the top link.
The box was a VW box.

Looks like this could be a fake knock-off part...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ixw6bBlaNcA

[bhvrdr]

Is ECS Turning sellings those things as OEM? Did you guys buy this?

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-.../06h109158hkt/

[mtroxel]

Looks like this could be a fake knock-off part...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ixw6bBlaNcA

Nice video audrobotic. Looks like there is something to this.

Is ECS Turning sellings those things as OEM? Did you guys buy this?

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-.../06h109158hkt/

That is for pre 5/18/2009 production date. I bought the one next to that for 5/18/2009 - 12/12/2011. No Chinese tensioner in mine. Mine was made in Italy.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...06h109158hkt2/

[wrp]

Has any one gotten a preventive tensioner fix (before failure) paid by an extended warranty?

We have a 2010 A4 2.0T with about 70,000 miles, and a third-party extended warranty to 100,000 miles and 2020. We have had no tensioner failure and no unusual noises. I realize the timing cover cap can be removed to see an old style tensioner, but that's probably not enough for an extended warranty to pay. Is a tear-down needed to see a loose chain, which might be enough evidence for the warranty to pay?

[jfo]

Has any one gotten a preventive tensioner fix (before failure) paid by an extended warranty?

We have a 2010 A4 2.0T with about 70,000 miles, and a third-party extended warranty to 100,000 miles and 2020. We have had no tensioner failure and no unusual noises. I realize the timing cover cap can be removed to see an old style tensioner, but that's probably not enough for an extended warranty to pay. Is a tear-down needed to see a loose chain, which might be enough evidence for the warranty to pay?

You can estimate the chain stretch by counting the ribs on the tensioner through the inspection port. I have seen comments on an Audi work order that stated beyond 7 is out of spec. Opening up the front to look at the chain isn't going to tell you anything more.

[Audi_Cinci]

Adding to the collection here.

I drive a 2009 Audi A3 Quattro 2.0T I was made aware of the chain tensioner issue in April and had it replaced for around $1400. Was then told in October about the chain potentially failing, had it inspected and came back with a bad prognosis. After some deliberating, had the chain replaced for just under an additional $1500.

Now I cross my fingers that someday VW will refund me $2900 for their screw up. I'm just checking google frequently to see if there's any new class action news. Supremely frustrating.

[Audi_Cinci]

Also, they informed me that the chain has a 3 year, 36,000 mile warranty. So. That's something.

[Spawne32]

Nice video audrobotic. Looks like there is something to this.



That is for pre 5/18/2009 production date. I bought the one next to that for 5/18/2009 - 12/12/2011. No Chinese tensioner in mine. Mine was made in Italy.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...06h109158hkt2/

curious what difference the production date makes, mine is a late 08 production model

[B8_Dude97]

You can estimate the chain stretch by counting the ribs on the tensioner through the inspection port. I have seen comments on an Audi work order that stated beyond 7 is out of spec. Opening up the front to look at the chain isn't going to tell you anything more.

Also can be done with vagcom at least the mk6 guys can


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[jfo]

Also can be done with vagcom at least the mk6 guys can


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I saw a comment about this in another thread(maybe you?) but haven't seen any follow up on how/where in VCDS. Anyone figure it out?

[mtroxel]

Anyone figure it out?

I've poked around in my VCDS. Can't find it. And having done that job, I can tell you there is no sensor on the tensioner or any rail...so I'm not sure how VCDS would know about the chain length.

[ELaw]

Actually I don't know if the info is accessible in VCDS but the car's ECU should be able to figure it out.

The engine has sensors to determine the position of the crank and the intake cam... the latter being used both to determine the phase of the engine (whether it's on the 1st or 2nd revolution of any given cycle) but also the timing of the cam. The timing info is used in conjunction with the adjuster to ensure the cam timing is always what it should be.

So if there's some parameter that tracks how much adjustment is being made to get the correct cam timing, it might be possible to correlate that parameter to chain (and sprocket and guide) wear.

[jfo]

Actually I don't know if the info is accessible in VCDS but the car's ECU should be able to figure it out.

The engine has sensors to determine the position of the crank and the intake cam... the latter being used both to determine the phase of the engine (whether it's on the 1st or 2nd revolution of any given cycle) but also the timing of the cam. The timing info is used in conjunction with the adjuster to ensure the cam timing is always what it should be.

So if there's some parameter that tracks how much adjustment is being made to get the correct cam timing, it might be possible to correlate that parameter to chain (and sprocket and guide) wear.

I wonder how that would work? Up to the point where the chain is severely stretched and the tensioner is no longer gradually taking up slack, why would cam timing be off?

[ELaw]

Because the cam is driven from the crank by the chain, the position of the cam is determined by the length of chain between the two. Lengthen the chain, and the cam will lag behind the crank. Keep in mind the the crank "pulls" the chain down the right side of the engine as viewed from the front, and the tensioner is on the left.

I know that's not a very good explanation... let me try an analogy. Suppose the chain was replaced by a rubber band. You could rotate the crank and the rubber band would stretch, and the cam might not turn at all. In other words, the cam timing would lag behind the crank. It's the same with a chain, just much less.

[palmface]

Yeah. This makes perfect sense. Take a look at https://youtu.be/SFonTWfD_7c?t=8m20s starting at 8:20. This guy hooked up his scope directly to the crankshaft and the cam position sensors and then compared the waveforms to a known-good engine. Physically, the ECU definitely should be able to keep track of the crank/cam timing drift.

[jfo]

Because the cam is driven from the crank by the chain, the position of the cam is determined by the length of chain between the two. Lengthen the chain, and the cam will lag behind the crank. Keep in mind the the crank "pulls" the chain down the right side of the engine as viewed from the front, and the tensioner is on the left.

I know that's not a very good explanation... let me try an analogy. Suppose the chain was replaced by a rubber band. You could rotate the crank and the rubber band would stretch, and the cam might not turn at all. In other words, the cam timing would lag behind the crank. It's the same with a chain, just much less.

After more thought, I get what you are saying. With a stretched chain, the increase in length from the exhaust sprocket down the right side to the crank will not be addressed by the tensioner.
It would be interesting to know if the ECU captures this and provides an indirect assessment of wear.
I only do about 12K km(8K miles) per year and my original chain is still in good shape, but I will continue to monitor from time to time. I checked the tensioner in March and again last week when under the car, and my original chain is just approaching 3 ribs...no change. I'm at about 85K km or 63K miles.

[B8_Dude97]

I saw a comment about this in another thread(maybe you?) but haven't seen any follow up on how/where in VCDS. Anyone figure it out?

I've poked around in my VCDS. Can't find it. And having done that job, I can tell you there is no sensor on the tensioner or any rail...so I'm not sure how VCDS would know about the chain length.

Actually I don't know if the info is accessible in VCDS but the car's ECU should be able to figure it out.

The engine has sensors to determine the position of the crank and the intake cam... the latter being used both to determine the phase of the engine (whether it's on the 1st or 2nd revolution of any given cycle) but also the timing of the cam. The timing info is used in conjunction with the adjuster to ensure the cam timing is always what it should be.

So if there's some parameter that tracks how much adjustment is being made to get the correct cam timing, it might be possible to correlate that parameter to chain (and sprocket and guide) wear.

Here’s what I read on the 2.0 tsi forum(same motor without Audi valve lift and slight other differences)

Both are using a med17 ecu so I would assume we have the same options but again idk.

I’ll try to dig into it later but from I heard it gives u a number that correlated with chain stretch
0 is perfect and Audi tolerance level is like 4 I think so if we can find this block this could help us determine who’s got a chain that’s about to slap off




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[palmface]

Here’s what I read on the 2.0 tsi forum(same motor without Audi valve lift and slight other differences)

Both are using a med17 ecu so I would assume we have the same options but again idk.

I’ll try to dig into it later but from I heard it gives u a number that correlated with chain stretch
0 is perfect and Audi tolerance level is like 4 I think so if we can find this block this could help us determine who’s got a chain that’s about to slap off




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"Camshaft adaptation intake bank 1: phase position"? See footnote [1] on http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/090-098.html



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[NYDCB]

Just got my tensioner replaced last week. Just under $1,300 for piece of mind @92K. Guides and tensioner we all original but showed no signs of wear. They gave me the law firm's info that is handling the Class Action on a post-it on my receipt lol! I will be getting this money back Audi!

[Novarider]

Is it possible to do the chains and tensioner without removing the front bumper if you have a lift? I paid someone to do this for me and it looks like they didn't take the bumper off. I had to pull the bumper today and the amount of dirt built up on the bolts looked like they hadn't been touched in years.

The guy said he worked as a tech at audi for 20 years.

[mtroxel]

Nova I can't imagine that. Hell it's not easy to replace the serp belt without at least pulling things forward. But I have done that one on my B7. I'm not saying its impossible to do the timing chain that way: but Gee that seems far fetched to me.

[jfo]

Hard to imagine doing it with the rad, etc in place. You would be working by feel and with a mirror!

[mtroxel]

I might see a guy just doing a tensioner that way...if he was good and knew how to keep the chain tight while he swapped tensioners. But I don't know that I believe you could get a new chain in there, then the guides, then the tensioner. It's tough to get a new chain on there when you have full access.

[Novarider]

I'm gonna pop the little cover off and see what tensioner is in there. He told me it had the original and it was changed to the most recent version.

[wkhanna]

again, it is becoming apparent that there is an issue with both the tensioner & the chain.
not changing both seems insufficient to prevent failures & provide 'peace of mind'.

anyone who has had, or is going to have this repair performed by a dealer should contact AoA & open a claim.
you will be able to negotiate a percentage subsidy for the repairs regardless of the mileage.
you may not get the 70% coverage i did, but anything is better than Zero.
also, if & when a recall is announced, you will have a much better chance to get any out-of-pocket expense reimbursed by presenting your repair invoice.

had i not gone this route when our 2011 A4 with 75k jumped time & wiped out all the valves my bill would have been near $5k instead of $1.3k

[bhvrdr]

again, it is becoming apparent that there is an issue with both the tensioner & the chain.
not changing both seems insufficient to prevent failures & provide 'peace of mind'.

anyone who has had, or is going to have this repair performed by a dealer should contact AoA & open a claim.
you will be able to negotiate a percentage subsidy for the repairs regardless of the mileage.
you may not get the 70% coverage i did, but anything is better than Zero.
also, if & when a recall is announced, you will have a much better chance to get any out-of-pocket expense reimbursed by presenting your repair invoice.

had i not gone this route when our 2011 A4 with 75k jumped time & wiped out all the valves my bill would have been near $5k instead of $1.3k

Audi refused to pay a dime of the timing chain repairs and also refused to pay a dime of my turbo replacement and i'm at 52K miles (was a few months out of the 7/70k mile turbo warranty). This is after I also had to pay out of pocket for pistons/rings on my other A4. Real sweethearts over there at AofA.

Mike

[wkhanna]

really sucks, Mike...!

what i learned from my experiance is that the dealer has a huge influence on whether & how much AoA will cover.
if they are not willing to support your claim to the AoA regional rep you may not get much, if any financial subsidy.

dealers who have built solid reputations & trust with AoA have more influence.
also, depending the way they are structured, they may be making more profit by not pursuing warranty coverage for the service.....

[bhvrdr]

really sucks, Mike...!

what i learned from my experiance is that the dealer has a huge influence on whether & how much AoA will cover.
if they are not willing to support your claim to the AoA regional rep you may not get much, if any financial subsidy.

dealers who have built solid reputations & trust with AoA have more influence.
also, depending the way they are structured, they may be be making more profit by not pursuing warranty coverage for the service.....

Yeah that makes sense. Its funny the dealership says to me I should contact AofA to try and get help and theyll "go to bat" for me etc. Then AofA finally responds that they must "side with the dealership" that this repair should not be covered. I think my dealer was telling me one thing and Audi another. Oh well. Its a shame I like Audis so much because I've never been impressed with their service.

Mike

[pierreb]

Some dealers have bigger goodwill budgets than others.

[Discipulus]

Just had a timing chain tensioner fail on my Aunt's 2009 A4 with 163k miles. I warned her 2 months ago that this needed to be done ASAP... even still, I feel bad for her.

She called me last night saying it was shuddering violently and rattling and wouldn't run well so she pulled over in a gas station parking lot. From there I jacked the car up with the spare tire jack and popped open the timing cover inspection port to find the tensioner was nearly fully extended, at 8 notches. I believe full extension is 10 notches, but either way with it stretched that far I was almost sure she had skipped a tooth. We towed it to the dealership where they confirmed timing chain was the culprit. Unknown if she has valve damage or not.

Due to other issues with her car (door locks don't work, catalytic converter needs replaced, some minor body damage, etc) she decided to sell it for parts and look for a different car.

[BeerBrent]

Just had a timing chain tensioner fail on my Aunt's 2009 A4 with 163k miles. I warned her 2 months ago that this needed to be done ASAP... even still, I feel bad for her.

Kinda encouraging for those of us that havent had it replaced yet that her car lasted until 163k miles.

[Spawne32]

does anyone know off hand what the essential tools are for this job and could give me some pointers on getting the rad support off? Don't have it in the garage yet to look at it, would just like to know what im getting into here before I start.

[audi bug]

does anyone know off hand what the essential tools are for this job and could give me some pointers on getting the rad support off? Don't have it in the garage yet to look at it, would just like to know what im getting into here before I start.

Check this one.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-and-front-end

[mtroxel]

does anyone know off hand what the essential tools are for this job

You MUST have something to hold the damper pulley while you break the crankshaft bolt free. No other way. I've saw one guy make a tool, but he said it was more work than it's worth. Then it is very, very advisable to have the little nylon doughnut to put back on the crankshaft after you pull the pulley. Hand tighten the bolt with the doughnut on, and it will hold the chain sprocket in the correct orientation. If the chain sprocket gets out of orientation, it's very difficult to get it back correctly. It is also very advisable to have to two tools that hold the cam sprockets in place while you get the new chain on and matched up to the marks.

Luckily I borrowed this kit from a friend and it was a tremendous help.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...l-kit-cta-2889

[squaretail]

F*ck yeah dude! I'm so happy for you - I can't imagine owning a car for less than 3 months and then having the engine blow due to a timing chain.

You, sir, have just dealt with 1 out of 2 known expensive issues with these cars. If the other issue is already resolved (oil consumption, faulty piston rings) then you're all set. Here's to a lot of good miles ahead!

Maybe this post doesn't belong in this thread, but my problems started here, so they'll end here too.

I bought a 2010 on July 27, 2017. 63k miles, super clean car. Perhaps too good to be true, and it was. The TC Tensioner went on day 32, and while there was no catastrophic damage, it was a $1400 repair. Then the oil consumption, barely noticeable July-September, kicked into high gear in early November, adding 3 quarts in 3 weeks. The turbo gave up last week. The car has 69k miles now.

Both the turbo and oil consumption are under warranty by mileage (70k and 80k respectively) so I called AoA. Sorry, they said, you're not covered under warranty because the in-service date of your car is longer than 8 years (by about 45 days.) As a huge fan and owner of 5 consecutive Audi/VW vehicles, I asked for a compromise. No compromise would be given on the warranty. I called the 2 closest dealers just to cover all the bases. They concurred: no warranty. One dealer estimated the turbo replacement at $2400 and then quietly said something to the effect of "don't bother." Since you're not covered for the oil consumption, sooner than later you'll need to address that with significant expense.

I called AoA again. Again, I was told no warranty. I called the dealer again, firmly but politely sharing my displeasure. They said bring the car in. The result surprised me. Rather than deal with any more talk of warranty, they instead offered me a very inflated trade-in amount toward a 2014 A4 S-Line with 42k miles and a CPO warranty to 100k. I jumped at the deal and was out of there in 2 hours.

Whether this is some sort of pocket program or just a dealer eager to sell a car I have no clue, but either way I left happy to be rid of my problem 2010.

[wkhanna]

good on you for your persistence...

it payed off.....

[mtroxel]

good on you for your persistence...

...and for being polite but firm. Guys that stand in the lobby and yell & swear convert themselves from a victim to a villain.

[wkhanna]

...and for being polite but firm. Guys that stand in the lobby and yell & swear convert themselves from a victim to a villain.

absolutely!
i made sure to be respectful, listen intently when others were speaking while never interrupting, keeping calm, & rational the entire time during my negotiations....
let your research & knowledge on the issue do the battle for you.....

[Spawne32]

Check this one.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-and-front-end

You MUST have something to hold the damper pulley while you break the crankshaft bolt free. No other way. I've saw one guy make a tool, but he said it was more work than it's worth. Then it is very, very advisable to have the little nylon doughnut to put back on the crankshaft after you pull the pulley. Hand tighten the bolt with the doughnut on, and it will hold the chain sprocket in the correct orientation. If the chain sprocket gets out of orientation, it's very difficult to get it back correctly. It is also very advisable to have to two tools that hold the cam sprockets in place while you get the new chain on and matched up to the marks.

Luckily I borrowed this kit from a friend and it was a tremendous help.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...l-kit-cta-2889

Thanks guys, this is a tremendous help. Wasn't looking forward to doing this at all but given how many failures I keep seeing pop up on a daily basis especially on the 09's I am getting a sense of urgency to replace it all.