THE Timing Chain Tensioner Failure Thread

[craigiemac412]

AAA is on their way to get my car now to tow to the dealer...didn't want to crank over at first, held the FOB in to get it to start and immediately started grinding :-/. Stopped the motor immediately and got the code pulled...P0016...the grinding noise has me thinking I've just skipped timing. Hopefully no catastrophic damage! Extremely anxious to hear what the dealer will have to say after they've had a chance to diagnose, but I'm expecting the worse at this point. Car is a 2010 @ 109xxx...I had the STG II Oil Consumption done around 65k under warranty almost 4 years ago at this point...and I'm at work so I don't have my paperwork handy to remember if they replaced the chain tensioner at that point or not...

This makes 3 of 3 major issues for me with this vehicle...
- New turbo @ 60k due to faulty waste gate actuator (done under warranty)
- STG II Oil Consumption @ 65k (done under warranty)
- Timing (complete diagnosis TBD -- most likely getting the shaft with out of pocket on this one)

[wkhanna]

AAA is on their way to get my car now to tow to the dealer...didn't want to crank over at first, held the FOB in to get it to start and immediately started grinding :-/. Stopped the motor immediately and got the code pulled...P0016...the grinding noise has me thinking I've just skipped timing. Hopefully no catastrophic damage! Extremely anxious to hear what the dealer will have to say after they've had a chance to diagnose, but I'm expecting the worse at this point. Car is a 2010 @ 109xxx...I had the STG II Oil Consumption done around 65k under warranty almost 4 years ago at this point...and I'm at work so I don't have my paperwork handy to remember if they replaced the chain tensioner at that point or not...

This makes 3 of 3 major issues for me with this vehicle...
- New turbo @ 60k due to faulty waste gate actuator (done under warranty)
- STG II Oil Consumption @ 65k (done under warranty)
- Timing (complete diagnosis TBD -- most likely getting the shaft with out of pocket on this one)

yep, i feel your pain....which dealer you using.....?
yesterday mine just went to Pittsburgh Audi on West Liberty.......

[BeerBrent]

just had the failure in my wifes' 2012 A4.....
72k miles on the engine.....
its at the dealer now for eval......

Only 72k?!?! Crap! I'm at about that on my 2010. I was hoping to wait until about 90k to get my timing tensioner/chain replaced. It seems like the majority of the guys that have it give out are at 100k+.

[craigiemac412]

yep, i feel your pain....which dealer you using.....?
yesterday mine just went to Pittsburgh Audi on West Liberty.......

That's where mine is going...I like Patrick the SA and Larry Pryor the SM @ Pittsburgh Audi (Larry used to be at Sewickley)..."safety in numbers" might benefit us both being there at the same time for the same thing

[wkhanna]

yeah, i have had no problems with Patrick the few i have dealt with him.....

we def should talk this over.....!
i will PM my email address & cell# to you in a few...

[craigiemac412]

Ok, so I was able to dig up my paperwork from my STG II Oil Consumption job...work was done at 62k miles in May 2014. At that time, they replaced the chain tensioner with revision K. Fast forward 47k miles, self destruction. Here is the timing info:

https://flic.kr/p/YucyxG

https://flic.kr/p/CsLrYQ

For a "lifetime" part, it definitely should not fail 47k miles after being brand new. There must have been some other issue which was not addressed at that time which worsened over time (i.e. chain was in rough shape and should have but wasn't replaced) or the new part itself was faulty. But hell...lets be honest...there could have been several different things going on...but hopefully this will help in my pursuit of getting this paid for by either the dealer or AoA...

Will keep thread updated...

[A4 Centaur]

Audi better get busy on this. There will be serious ramifications for them if not.

[wkhanna]

our 2012 was purchased used at ~ 35k....
i do not have the service records at hand but do not recall it containing any mention of the oil consumption issue.
our car has performed flawlessly up until now with no excessive oil consumption or other indications that there would or could be issues....

it will come down to analyzing the engine parts for evidence of the root cause for the failure.....unfortunately, that is something that can be up to individual interpretation.....
however, i have experience as a mechanic, albeit years ago, but i can at least tell if i am being bullshitted.....
also, i can/will have any parts in question analyzed by a third party.....

[wkhanna]

Audi better get busy on this. There will be serious ramifications for them if not.

one aspect i see at hand is the fact they are enduring massive ($billions) fines & replacement/reimbursement costs due to the recent emissions fiasco.
hence, they will be even less motivated to poney up $ for customer repairs related to a new issue....

[Discipulus]

Only 72k?!?! Crap! I'm at about that on my 2010. I was hoping to wait until about 90k to get my timing tensioner/chain replaced. It seems like the majority of the guys that have it give out are at 100k+.

Dude! I wouldn't wait if I were you... I was at about 100k when I did mine and replaced it within weeks of learning about the issue. I wouldn't risk it... that's a big bill. Would hate to see a fellow Pacific Northwesterner fall victim to this!

Oh, that reminds me - I already have /most/ of the tools for the job. If you plan on doing it yourself let me know, you're welcome to borrow the tools. I even have an extra unopened tube of that special Audi sealant.

The way I see it, you're not losing anything by doing this preventive maintenance "early". If you replace all the chains, guides, rails, tensioners, etc with the latest versions you'll never have to do it again unless you plan on keeping it past 200k miles or so =P.

[BeerBrent]

Dude! I wouldn't wait if I were you... I was at about 100k when I did mine and replaced it within weeks of learning about the issue. I wouldn't risk it... that's a big bill. Would hate to see a fellow Pacific Northwesterner fall victim to this!

Oh, that reminds me - I already have /most/ of the tools for the job. If you plan on doing it yourself let me know, you're welcome to borrow the tools. I even have an extra unopened tube of that special Audi sealant.

The way I see it, you're not losing anything by doing this preventive maintenance "early". If you replace all the chains, guides, rails, tensioners, etc with the latest versions you'll never have to do it again unless you plan on keeping it past 200k miles or so =P.

Thanks! But cant afford it right now. But definitely starting to save $$ for it.

[old guy]

I haven't read through this whole thread yet so forgive me if this has already been posted. I came across it in the CC forum. vw-audi-timing-chain-tensioner-lawsuit

[Novarider]

Having mine replaced now. I can't do it myself right now (my wife just had a double lung transplant) so I'm paying $900 to have the chains, guides and tensioners replaced. My Avant is at 100k miles and the worrying about the chain is killing me.

[wkhanna]

Having mine replaced now. I can't do it myself right now (my wife just had a double lung transplant) so I'm paying $900 to have the chains, guides and tensioners replaced. My Avant is at 100k miles and the worrying about the chain is killing me.

its good peace of mind......

btw, i have been through lung xplant eval & approved for single, but am still considered too 'healthy', with just under 30% function, to be put on the list.....
honestly, i am not in a hurry ..........

my thoughts are with you both......
...which hospital...?

[wkhanna]

I haven't read through this whole thread yet so forgive me if this has already been posted. I came across it in the CC forum. vw-audi-timing-chain-tensioner-lawsuit

thanks for that, OG...!

[Novarider]

its good peace of mind......

btw, i have been through lung xplant eval & approved for single, but am still considered too 'healthy', with just under 30% function, to be put on the list.....
honestly, i am not in a hurry ..........

my thoughts are with you both......
...which hospital...?

Vanderbilt in Nashville TN.

Good luck. It's a lot to take on but it's worth it.

[wkhanna]

i have heard that it is a good hospital......
it takes special a kind of people to handle such a thing......i am sure guys have what it takes!

you have my admiration & hopes for many more years of creating wonderful memories.
be well,

bill

[Azdramos]

Oil consumption history would be useful to hear. When I have talked to dealers, they tell me to not worry because this failure only happens when someone consistently lets their oil get low, and that you will hear weird noises well ahead of any failure (I know, laughable)

This weekend, I ordered parts to replace my tensioner. Have seen enough tensioner issues now that I feel uncomfortable with the stock unit at 106,000 miles.

mine went out at 106500, you made a good choice

[blbroo]

mine went out at 106500, you made a good choice

Yep. Mine was down to about a tooth and a half before it failed.

[Azdramos]

Yep. Mine was down to about a tooth and a half before it failed.

Mine skipped 11 teeth when i was at a gas station, getting gas on my way to my techs house cus i had ANOTHER misfire issue in the last 4 months, making it my 3rd.
but on the bright side, im getting my engine put back together over the next few days.
Audi also told me i gotta give them 8k for the engine... told me its either 8k, or you take your car. I fixed it under 2k.

[blbroo]

Mine skipped 11 teeth when i was at a gas station, getting gas on my way to my techs house cus i had ANOTHER misfire issue in the last 4 months, making it my 3rd.
but on the bright side, im getting my engine put back together over the next few days.
Audi also told me i gotta give them 8k for the engine... told me its either 8k, or you take your car. I fixed it under 2k.

Nice work

[archangel.308]

I decided to take mine in and get it done in advance of a thermo-nuclear meltdown, also had SS brake lines installed, new Serpentine belt and my APR Stage two was updated to the lasts version, as I was still on the Beta program from years ago. All in all with everything done I got out for just under $1200

One less thing to worry about

[flowhigh]

Haven't read through the whole thread - this is a long one. Isn't it just a matter of calling up your local audi dealership and giving your Vin to see which version tensioner you have? Anyone know what Vin#s do have the failure prone tensioners installed?

[A4x]

Ok, so I was able to dig up my paperwork from my STG II Oil Consumption job...work was done at 62k miles in May 2014. At that time, they replaced the chain tensioner with revision K. Fast forward 47k miles, self destruction. Here is the timing info:

https://flic.kr/p/YucyxG

https://flic.kr/p/CsLrYQ

For a "lifetime" part, it definitely should not fail 47k miles after being brand new. There must have been some other issue which was not addressed at that time which worsened over time (i.e. chain was in rough shape and should have but wasn't replaced) or the new part itself was faulty. But hell...lets be honest...there could have been several different things going on...but hopefully this will help in my pursuit of getting this paid for by either the dealer or AoA...

Will keep thread updated...

Is this the first evidence we have of the revision K tensioner failing? I thought that this was the updated part that shouldn't fail. I recently paid a decent amount of money to have the revision K put in my car @ 75000 miles!!

[B8_Dude97]

Is this the first evidence we have of the revision K tensioner failing? I thought that this was the updated part that shouldn't fail. I recently paid a decent amount of money to have the revision K put in my car @ 75000 miles!!

I wouldn't call this evidence. Tech didn't check chain stretch. It also makes no mention of replacing the guides/rails. That was a piss poor bandaid job to be frank. Op should've requested guides and new chain due to the twnsioner fully collapsing under load.

If you do a tensioner swap you should change the chain if your close to 100k the guides should also be replaced while your in there


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[craigiemac412]

I wouldn't call this evidence. Tech didn't check chain stretch. It also makes no mention of replacing the guides/rails. That was a piss poor bandaid job to be frank. Op should've requested guides and new chain due to the twnsioner fully collapsing under load.

If you do a tensioner swap you should change the chain if your close to 100k the guides should also be replaced while your in there


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

Knowing what I know now, I would agree that this was poorly handled by the dealer doing the original work. I was not advised with regards to anything timing (and did not know anything about it then either -- that work was done over 3 years ago). I would have paid the extra few hundred dollars at that time to do it if I knew about the issue or was advised about the situation...but then again that was only at 62k (not really close to 100k) miles and there likely were not a lot of chain tensioner failures back then like there are now.

Here's my concern: what happens when you have an owner who is not very technically inclined and would have no idea about engine timing or failure rates about a poorly designed part? I would argue that the majority of A4 (and 2.0T in general, Audi or VW) owners would fall into this category. That would not be true to a lot of people on this forum, given the nature of what this forum is, but in general that is the case. And even still...there are plenty of folks on this forum who know only basics and some even don't know anything about engines and are only concerned with aesthetic changes (i.e. wheels, suspension, etc.). An owner can only make as educated of a decision as they know facts, whether through self discovery or being presented to them (i.e. Service Advisor).

With that said, how many folks are blindly getting bent over because they simply don't know any better? My guess...A LOT. That's my concern.

[audrobotic]

Knowing what I know now, I would agree that this was poorly handled by the dealer doing the original work. I was not advised with regards to anything timing (and did not know anything about it then either -- that work was done over 3 years ago). I would have paid the extra few hundred dollars at that time to do it if I knew about the issue or was advised about the situation...but then again that was only at 62k (not really close to 100k) miles and there likely were not a lot of chain tensioner failures back then like there are now.

Here's my concern: what happens when you have an owner who is not very technically inclined and would have no idea about engine timing or failure rates about a poorly designed part? I would argue that the majority of A4 (and 2.0T in general, Audi or VW) owners would fall into this category. That would not be true to a lot of people on this forum, given the nature of what this forum is, but in general that is the case. And even still...there are plenty of folks on this forum who know only basics and some even don't know anything about engines and are only concerned with aesthetic changes (i.e. wheels, suspension, etc.). An owner can only make as educated of a decision as they know facts, whether through self discovery or being presented to them (i.e. Service Advisor).

With that said, how many folks are blindly getting bent over because they simply don't know any better? My guess...A LOT. That's my concern.

I agree to all that. That’s why I’m like a broken record in saying to avoid the B8 (vs B8.5). People who havent done their research will see a “cheap” Audi and think “what could go wrong?”. And it’s more complicated than just the tensioner part.

The updated tensioner is a very different design. The original was meant to work off of oil pressure. Which when you have oil consumption issues is the worst setup you could have. Now when you have a B8.5 with no oil consumption issues, no tensioner dependent on oil pressure, you are in much better shape relability-wise. The B8 in the other hand is just a perfect storm of compounding issues.

[jfo]

I agree to all that. That’s why I’m like a broken record in saying to avoid the B8 (vs B8.5). People who havent done their research will see a “cheap” Audi and think “what could go wrong?”. And it’s more complicated than just the tensioner part.

The updated tensioner is a very different design. The original was meant to work off of oil pressure. Which when you have oil consumption issues is the worst setup you could have. Now when you have a B8.5 with no oil consumption issues, no tensioner dependent on oil pressure, you are in much better shape relability-wise. The B8 in the other hand is just a perfect storm of compounding issues.

I've seen parts listings that show the same tensioner is used on at least up to 2017 models, and they all use oil pressure. Where did you see it was different?

[Helobubba]

The lawsuit here refers to 2006 to 2016 models.

https://www.carcomplaints.com/alerts...-lawsuit.shtml

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[audrobotic]

I've seen parts listings that show the same tensioner is used on at least up to 2017 models, and they all use oil pressure. Where did you see it was different?

Youre probably right. I’ll have to revist my sources. It’s likely a bit more nuanced. The current models probably use oil pressure but arent as prone to failure in that regard.

[jfo]

Youre probably right. I’ll have to revist my sources. It’s likely a bit more nuanced. The current models probably use oil pressure but arent as prone to failure in that regard.

They use oil pressure while the car is running. The piston is locked by the notches and retainer to keep it in place when the engine shuts down. The retainer on the old design was not robust and simply wore out, allowing the piston to retract and chain to slacken. The K version has been in place since sometime in late 2014 I believe, and is still current. Hopefully, this means it will last a long time!

[TyFoxx]

Any update on the lawsuit?
Have the same issue now.
107k
Turbo rebuilt at 60k
Rear main seal at 80k
Engine at 82k for the oil consumption
Common intake manifold issue at 89k
Steering wheel shakes as well which is ANOTHER common issue I think with the control arms.
Can’t sell this thing with the light on.
Parts are about 300-550 plus labor for the timing chain kit.
2 Door actuators are broken.

I want to drive this thing into a lake.

Edit. Can I just get the tensioner replaced and not the full kit?

[sm0kie]

Hey gents, just discovered this nightmare about the tensioner after the dealership tried to make me pay additional parts+labor during a Stage II piston job. I was pretty lit up they wanted any labor dollars at all with the motor already pulled, so I basically ignored them about it. Do you guys know if replacing the tensioner is completely at the dealership's discretion or are they all doing it as part of Stage II?

[Spawne32]

Hey gents, just discovered this nightmare about the tensioner after the dealership tried to make me pay additional parts+labor during a Stage II piston job. I was pretty lit up they wanted any labor dollars at all with the motor already pulled, so I basically ignored them about it. Do you guys know if replacing the tensioner is completely at the dealership's discretion or are they all doing it as part of Stage II?

As far as I understand, it is NOT part of the stage 2 because audi will not cover those parts as part of that recall. Most people are paying extra to have that stuff replaced. Unless it is already otherwise damaged when the engine is pulled apart, i guess in select circumstances they WOULD replace it under warranty.

[wkhanna]

at the dealer i am using..... no help till failure.....

i asked the AoA rep if they would cover just looking my 2011 A5 now that my wifes' A4 just imploded.....
she said no...

i believe they are not acknowledging the issue for now to limit their costs....
once/if they do, everyone will want to have their tensioner, chain & guides replaced on audi's dime when 'letter' goes out to owners that there is a problem.....

[mtroxel]

I wouldn't call this evidence. Tech didn't check chain stretch. It also makes no mention of replacing the guides/rails.

I agree. I did this job last week. Updated to the K tensioner, but gee after all the hours it takes to get there, do the chain and guides too. I saw a tech friend of mine doing this job on another car. Tensioner was fine, but it was all the way out! Meaning the chain had stretched so far the tensioner was about to be useless, even though it was still healthy.

Here's a side by side of my 85,000 mile chain and the new, revised chain. Note the old one had stretched a bit, and also note the revised design to correct the stretch issue on this "lifetime" chain.

[jfo]

I agree. I did this job last week. Updated to the K tensioner, but gee after all the hours it takes to get there, do the chain and guides too. I saw a tech friend of mine doing this job on another car. Tensioner was fine, but it was all the way out! Meaning the chain had stretched so far the tensioner was about to be useless, even though it was still healthy.

Here's a side by side of my 85,000 mile chain and the new, revised chain. Note the old one had stretched a bit, and also note the revised design to correct the stretch issue on this "lifetime" chain.

Thanks for the pic. Your stretch looks quite small, which is good to see at 85K. How were the guides?

[mtroxel]

Thanks for the pic. Your stretch looks quite small, which is good to see at 85K. How were the guides?

Yea that stretch isn't bad for 85,000. And my guides were all brown, but almost no visible wear. Still, once you get in there, don't know why you wouldn't do it all. And I've seen much worse stretch on some others.

EDIT:

When I said the guides were OK, I was thinking of the cam chain guides. But I was about to put the cover on when I noticed this on the oil pump chain tensioner guide. This didn't have but a month or two left:

[Spawne32]

it is shocking to me that these plastic guides do not have metal sleeves in the through holes to prevent the torque of the bolt from causing that exact kind of cracking.

[jfo]

Yea that stretch isn't bad for 85,000. And my guides were all brown, but almost no visible wear. Still, once you get in there, don't know why you wouldn't do it all. And I've seen much worse stretch on some others.

EDIT:

When I said the guides were OK, I was thinking of the cam chain guides. But I was about to put the cover on when I noticed this on the oil pump chain tensioner guide. This didn't have but a month or two left:

I agree and would spend the $$ to change out these parts while in there. It's good to see reasonable or minimal wear at your mileage(exception noted) on those parts though. I'm only at about 55K miles and my chain looks good based on the extension I see on the tensioner. Looks like I'm good for a while longer before tearing it open. My dealer did the tensioner, upper guide and cam bridge as part of the stage 2 fix about 2 years ago. They did it on their own and I didn't notice until I looked at the parts list and asked them about it. Unlike many of the reports we see, there are some good, customer oriented dealers out there.