Exhaust cam flat spot

[Skip_Brackett]

2002 A4 B6 3.0L 116k miles. I found the source of the knock. This flat spot on the exhaust cam. I'm a driveway mechanic and can handle some repair. What all is involved with repairing this? I am sure another cam, replace the lifter, but what else should I expect? Is this a remove the front end job or not? Thanks for the help


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[csosnowski]

Most defintately a service position job. Youll also need some special tools to time the engine properly.

[hightime80]

Buy a rebuilt head and be done with it. Also do ur t belt, h2o pump, headgasket and vc and ctg and that mother will be bulletproof!!

[ruski.dimachka]

For this you will definitely need to put the front end in the service position, the timing belt will also have to come off in order to remove the cam shaft. Also the cam chain in the back will need to come off. Looks like this will be a pretty involved job.

[imnuts]

I'd recommend replacing both heads, or at least rebuilding both. If you have this on one side, the other likely isn't far behind.

Sent from my DROID Turbo 2

[Furly]

Do you know what the root cause of this was ? A bad lifter?
I'd try and find out what actually caused it, that way you know if the head has to come off or not. And so that it doesn't happen with a replacement cam (or head, whichever you decide to do)

[imnuts]

Do you know what the root cause of this was ? A bad lifter?
I'd try and find out what actually caused it, that way you know if the head has to come off or not. And so that it doesn't happen with a replacement cam (or head, whichever you decide to do)

The 02 & early 03 models had improperly hardened cams which resulted in abnormal wear like this.

Sent from my DROID Turbo 2

[Skip_Brackett]

It had a tap when I bought it 2 weeks ago and against all that was in me to walk away, I didn't. Everything about the car looked new and the 65 yr old first owner probably babied it due to the noise.
I have a cam and lifters in the way. The lobe is covered in oil when the engine runs which makes me think the lifter may have a hole. I will report my findings when I tear it down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Charles.waite]

Seems like a lot of sludge around the cams too. I'm not so certain "babied" is the right term. Seems like the PO might have pushed his oil change intervals or used shitty oil...

[Skip_Brackett]

PO said synthetic every 10k. It has 117k on it. Think I'll go with 5k intervals. I think the extended intervals are plots to wear out your car and make you buy more parts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Charles.waite]

I don't know man. There's a shitload of sludgy looking crap sitting around on the head. I changed the oil every 8-10k on my 1.8t and the head was always clean as a whistle.

Having said that I would run some sort of cleaning additive and do a few short oil changes to try to flush that shit out. Seeing that in the head would make me worried what the pan looks like as well as the oil pickup.

[csosnowski]

PO said synthetic every 10k. It has 117k on it. Think I'll go with 5k intervals. I think the extended intervals are plots to wear out your car and make you buy more parts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct


10k intervals are way too long if the vehicle is ever short-tripped or driven around town or in heat.

There is a very fine line between severe and normal duty. For example, if the car is ever driven on dusty roads - boom - severe duty. OCI is shorter for severe iirc, same with timing belt.

Change the oil at 5k for a few intervals with filter changes at 2500miles. Use big PH3569 fram filter its under $5 usually. I run them on both my 1.8t and all Audi VW that come through my shop that they will fit on. Ph3569 will fit on 2.8 and 3.0 and 2.7, but not 2.7 allroad.

Those AVK (3.0) heads are bad about clogging the oil returns in the corners when the sludge gets that bad, so the oil stays in the head and cooks.


BMW's OCI is even more ridiculous at 15k! Let me tell you what the valve cover gaskets look like on a car that has had 7 oil changes at 100k miles: petrified wood, hard plastic, i.e. no longer rubber.

[Furly]

Correct


10k intervals are way too long if the vehicle is ever short-tripped or driven around town or in heat.

There is a very fine line between severe and normal duty. For example, if the car is ever driven on dusty roads - boom - severe duty. OCI is shorter for severe iirc, same with timing belt.

Change the oil at 5k for a few intervals with filter changes at 2500miles. Use big PH3569 fram filter its under $5 usually. I run them on both my 1.8t and all Audi VW that come through my shop that they will fit on. Ph3569 will fit on 2.8 and 3.0 and 2.7, but not 2.7 allroad.

Those AVK (3.0) heads are bad about clogging the oil returns in the corners when the sludge gets that bad, so the oil stays in the head and cooks.


BMW's OCI is even more ridiculous at 15k! Let me tell you what the valve cover gaskets look like on a car that has had 7 oil changes at 100k miles: petrified wood, hard plastic, i.e. no longer rubber.

Fram filters are easily the worst. They have plastic internals. An OEM filter from audi dealer is like $8 so why try to save $3 and get a junk filter ? The good non dealer filter is the mann. Essentially the same as oem. Or if you want to save another buck you can get the Purolator.

I agree with 10k being way too long an interval though. 5k is the max I go.

Also all 1.8T filters should be the "big" filter. The small filter was discontinued a long time ago.

[Moncion]

Fram filters are easily the worst. They have plastic internals. An OEM filter from audi dealer is like $8 so why try to save $3 and get a junk filter ? The good non dealer filter is the mann. Essentially the same as oem. Or if you want to save another buck you can get the Purolator.

I agree with 10k being way too long an interval though. 5k is the max I go.

Also all 1.8T filters should be the "big" filter. The small filter was discontinued a long time ago.

We're talking miles? The place I go to put a sticker on my window for me to return in 5k km, seemed really early.

[Furly]

We're talking miles? The place I go to put a sticker on my window for me to return in 5k km, seemed really early.

5,000 miles. If they put 5k km they probably used cheap regular oil and not full synthetic.

[Charles.waite]

Fram filters are easily the worst. They have plastic internals. An OEM filter from audi dealer is like $8 so why try to save $3 and get a junk filter ? The good non dealer filter is the mann. Essentially the same as oem. Or if you want to save another buck you can get the Purolator.

I agree with 10k being way too long an interval though. 5k is the max I go.

Also all 1.8T filters should be the "big" filter. The small filter was discontinued a long time ago.

Parts stores will still sell you the small filter though. Ask me how I know.

And I drove all city, short trips and did oil changes once a year which usually came out to be 7-8000 miles. As I said, internals were clean and no oil pressure issues I knew of. I no longer have the b6 but I do similarly in my 2.0t. Maybe a tad shorter since I drive even less now. The difference being my b7 burns 1qt every 1400 miles and has since I bought it 30k miles ago. I practically don't need to change the oil, just the filter at that rate. I do anyway obviously.

Point being I wouldn't cut the OCI in half just because your drive cycles are a little bit harsher than normal. If you're really curious send an oil sample to Blackstone after 7500miles and see what they say.

[Moncion]

5,000 miles. If they put 5k km they probably used cheap regular oil and not full synthetic.

Full synthetic VW spec surprisingly.

[Charles.waite]

We're talking miles? The place I go to put a sticker on my window for me to return in 5k km, seemed really early.

It's because they want more money.

With a good filter and quality synthetic you can easily go 7500miles or more between changes without issues. What's that, 15,000 km?

Full synthetic VW spec surprisingly.

You ninja'd me. If that's the case ignore the sticker. I would triple their recommendation.

[Moncion]

It's because they want more money.

With a good filter and quality synthetic you can easily go 7500miles or more between changes without issues. What's that, 15,000 km?



You ninja'd me. If that's the case ignore the sticker. I would triple their recommendation.

Thanks pal, I'm thinking I'll do 10k or so

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[SJorge3442]

That head looks pretty bad. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not sure what oil has been used in it, but it hasn't left the head in the best condition. What's the other head look like? You're gonna have to pull that valve cover off in order to time the engine since that's how the 3.0 works.

This looks like it was a combination of oil starvation AND bad cams.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[imnuts]

As far as I know, Audi used Dino oil in 02, which made the improperly hardened cam issue worse. It's possible that the sludge is old, but the oil used just didn't have enough detergents in it to clean out what was there. Several years ago, there were posts that has pictures with worse wear and consistent synthetic oil changes.

Also, please go away 1.8T owners with the 5k mi OCI recommendations. Any quality synthetic week likely last 7,500 miles minimum, even with short trips. I got my oil sampled after 10k mi before and there was still life left after an analysis. With probably 75/25 highway/city. The NA engine is completely different than the turbo.

Sent from my DROID Turbo 2

[Charles.waite]

As far as I know, Audi used Dino oil in 02, which made the improperly hardened cam issue worse. It's possible that the sludge is old, but the oil used just didn't have enough detergents in it to clean out what was there. Several years ago, there were posts that has pictures with worse wear and consistent synthetic oil changes.

Also, please go away 1.8T owners with the 5k mi OCI recommendations. Any quality synthetic week likely last 7,500 miles minimum, even with short trips. I got my oil sampled after 10k mi before and there was still life left after an analysis. With probably 75/25 highway/city. The NA engine is completely different than the turbo.

Sent from my DROID Turbo 2

Haha this. 5k mile intervals is a waste even on a 1.8t. A big filter plus good oil can last 10k miles no problem...

[Furly]

I wonder why audi didn't issue a recall for the improperly hardened cams (or possibly wrong material used all together)

[Kevin C]

Good read.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012...-what-why-how/

“For all automotive engines currently in use. Introduced in 2004, SM oils are designed to provide improved oxidation resistance, improved deposit protection, better wear protection, and better low-temperature performance over the life of the oil. Some SM oils may also meet the latest ILSAC specification and/or qualify as Energy Conserving.”

In 1992, an API-rated SH oil contained 1,200 parts per million (ppm) of phosphorus; in 1996 SJ contained 1,000 ppm. It was not until 2001, when the rating went to SL, that we all started to see camshaft problems appear.

In 2001, SL-rated oil still contained 1,000 ppm of phosphorous, and it is the phosphorous that limits are set on. But this limits the amount of ZDDP an oil manufacturer can use. The rating was changed due to demands for increased engine cleanliness standards.

Higher levels of detergents were introduced to meet these standards and camshaft problems began. It was not until 2004, when SM rated oils, with their limited 800 ppm phosphorus were introduced, that cam failures greatly increased.

Why then, you ask, have API standards pushed for higher detergent levels and lower levels of ZDDP? ZDDP attacks or “poisons” catalytic converters. The same attraction properties that allow it to adhere to or “plate” cams and lifters also happens to the catalyst in converters, thus rendering them ineffective.

[csosnowski]

Fram filters are easily the worst. They have plastic internals. An OEM filter from audi dealer is like $8 so why try to save $3 and get a junk filter ? The good non dealer filter is the mann. Essentially the same as oem. Or if you want to save another buck you can get the Purolator.

I agree with 10k being way too long an interval though. 5k is the max I go.

Also all 1.8T filters should be the "big" filter. The small filter was discontinued a long time ago.

5k OCI is cheap insurance on an expensive engine/repair for a car that has low value these days. 10k OCI on a severe duty car is rolling the dice.

Pricing and availability of filters depend on geographic area and dealer / vendor preference.

Ive been using the fram filter on my Audi cars with more than 100k miles logged on them. Why would I waste my money on what someone else says is what I should buy?

I put the fram filters on my customers cars too, no complaints there either. Lots of miles logged with those as well.

As for the small filter being discontinued, go walk into any parts store and ask for a filter for a 2004 1.8t and youll get some shitty small filter unless you ask for the M1-301 which is a rebrand Purolator and at my cost its easily $14 if you can get it.



I work on these for a living, so I see the best and worst of this stuff and have to explain to the customer why my oil changes cost close to $100 and <insert lube place> says they can do it for $25. Its frustrating and ends up adding to the engines like the OP.

The fram filters are junk crap is a myth, its garbage and old news. I picked the fram because of the bypass valve spring and if you look up the filter youll see that it has a rubber bypass valve, bonded ends, and cellulose/synthetic media just like oem/mann/Purolator. My decision was not soley based on cost and if it was it would have centered on a cheaper one since there are cheaper/worse options.

Also when you do this for a living you see the results of the 7500 10k and 15k OCI. Saying that 5k OCI are a waste is like saying youre going to drive without insurance for awhile and see how it goes. I don't take that chance for my customers.



Now in my own vehicle ive been doing an experiment with the durability of the rotella. Ive been changing the filter at 5k and left the oil in until just recently. The oil maintained its properties well past 10k even though it looked horrible when drained.

The 3.0 is probably the worst for sludge, especially if conventional oil has been used for any length of time since it cokes easily.

[Skip_Brackett]

So I've read the posts about how to run a cleaner but which is the best way to clean it? A motor flush additive, sea foam in the oil, the 50wt and ATF thing, adding diesel? Who has done what to theirs for the best outcome?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skip_Brackett]

It's the back exhaust cam on the #6 cylinder. You can see it at the beginning and the very end. It is running terrible because the other side is still closed up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MikTip]

Shell Rotella T6 5w-40

Cleans gooooood!

[Charles.waite]

Shell Rotella T6 5w-40

Cleans gooooood!

This x10000

[Skip_Brackett]

This x10000

Does using the Rotella clean it like that? Or does it maintain the a clean engine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[old guy]

Does using the Rotella clean it like that? Or does it maintain the a clean engine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rotella is very high in detergents since it is formulated primarily for use on turbo diesel engines that tend to run a lot dirtier than gasoline engines. Consequently it does a great job of cleaning. It definitely cleaned my engine up after using Mobil 1 0w40. Rotella T6 is now available in a 0w40 as well as the 5w40 formulation. That's what I'm currently running.

[Skip_Brackett]

Rotella is very high in detergents since it is formulated primarily for use on turbo diesel engines that tend to run a lot dirtier than gasoline engines. Consequently it does a great job of cleaning. It definitely cleaned my engine up after using Mobil 1 0w40. Rotella T6 is now available in a 0w40 as well as the 5w40 formulation. That's what I'm currently running.

Now here's another question: Should I just start using the Rotella to handle the cleaning or run a cleaner first? I was going to do the 50wt and dextron flush. Should I bother?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[old guy]

The deposits in your engine look hard and dried out. I don't see anything all gummy and soft. I would do several 5000 mile oil change intervals with the Rotella and take another look.

[Skip_Brackett]

Thanks for the help old guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skip_Brackett]

Here is where I am so far. A stripped hex bolt on the crank pulley is holding me up. Took the pan off and there was sludge and some shine from the cam and lifter. Hoping this bolt extractor gets the stripped one out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skip_Brackett]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[john_gonzo]

Skip_B, if you need some down time from wrangling that crank pulley bolt, the valve cover baffles can be removed for cleaning.

[A4alaska]

Skip,
I am in the middle of getting my 2002 3.0 back together after exhaust cam change out. From my research for some reason it is usually the passenger side that has the most failures. So I would inspect that as well.
I replaced the cam shaft and all lifters. Bought these items at Europa parts.
In addition ypu will likely find your PCV hoses broken so I replaced these also from Europa parts.
In addition you will likely find many vacuum hoses torn or hard lines broken.
In addition you will want to perform the timing belt change out. I bought the kit from blauparts. You will also need to buy or rent the camshaft locking tools to keep relative position in place when you remove the belt.

Right now I am in the middle of investigating and replacing parts on the actuator and air diverted cylinder parts inside the intake manifold.

Long story short. Be prepare to find many other items to work on when you get in there and be as gentle as you can because the plastic component are rediculously fragile.

[csosnowski]

Purolator at retail price is $5 and Purolator gold is $7. If you get them for $14 at your cost you're getting yanked. If you put a fram filter on my car I would never bring my car back to you.
I wouldn't even put a fram on a hoopty.

Maybe I like being yanked.

Go back to your boutique jeans and oils and filters and belts guy. Results talk bullshit walks.

[audinutt]

Maybe I like being yanked.

Go back to your boutique jeans and oils and filters and belts guy. Results talk bullshit walks.

You obviously don't know much.
I have dissected filters and fram is shit.
Questionable european tech at best.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk