Camshaft installation questions

[evehill]

I'm in the process of replacing my cam chain tensioner gaskets and seals using the blauparts kit, and I have questions regarding the installation of the camshafts. Looking at the passenger side camshafts, I've counted and marked 16 rollers on the chain (as per blau instructions), and installed the camshafts and tensioner. Problem is, when I align the notch in the chain sprocket with the arrow on the intake side bearing cap, the exhaust side is out of alignment as pictured.





The blau instructions mentioned that the exhaust cam mark would be at a slight angle on the drivers side, but did not mention anything about the passenger side. It also seems to be at more than a slight angle in my case.

Am I safe to install it like this so long as there are 16 chain rollers between the notches in the chain sprocket? Also, should the intake or the exhaust notch be aligned with the mark on the bearing cap when installing?

[vavJETTAw36]

If you were only replacing seals, why did you have to muck with the timing? With cam lock bar on and tensioner tool you don't have to mess with it. Did you pull the tensioner and cams?


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[evehill]

If you were only replacing seals, why did you have to muck with the timing? With cam lock bar on and tensioner tool you don't have to mess with it. Did you pull the tensioner and cams?


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Yes, I pulled the tensioner and cams, as I'm replacing the cam tensioner gaskets and in addition to the valve seals. Maybe I didn't have to pull it all out, but I followed the instruction provided with the kit, and it would have been difficult to properly clean the valve surfaces otherwise.

[Tiluleshpingen]

bump for this guy.. am guessing tensioner slack ?

[vavJETTAw36]

Ah that makes sense. If you were only doing gaskets you do not have to pull completely...

Another bump for you. Not sure the tolerances but there is another thread on here with a good image for reference.


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[4rings2turbos]

Did you mark the chain and cam before you removed anything? If you did and they're still lined up and you didn't touch the timing belt then you're all good to go. Counting teeth will only get you so far. The teeth aren't exact and the chain stretches a few mm over time. The arrow and cap notch are the most accurate indicator. If you're off a link it will be WAY off. When you have new chains they line up 100% dead on, if they're old chains then bank 1 exhaust cam will be a bit to the left, bank 2 exhaust cam a bit to the right.

In your pic though it looks like your mark is one link to the left. And the arrow looks like it's also 1 link too far.

My best advice is to not count links though. Go by the arrow and cam cap alone.

[evehill]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I was out one link and with the cam tensioner tool still on, it also made it look even further out. I also dug out my bentley manual and found this page useful, in case anyone has a similar issue:



There are approximately 16 roller links between the two notches, but there is definite offset on the exhaust side. And like 4rings2turbos mentioned, the stretching of the chain would increase the offset.

[evehill]

Okay so, I finally got around to finishing this up, however the alignment of the camshaft and bearing cap marks still concerns me. Could someone verify for me that it looks okay?

Passenger side camshafts:


Intake side:


Exhaust side:

[Tiluleshpingen]

on the passengers side they look good to me...bump to help this guy

[ColinGruenfeld]

Evehill,

Did you get this figured out? I am currently dealing with bad timing on my passenger bank as well.

There is so much mixed info out there on this issue. My questions is: Did the slightly offset exhaust cam alignment solve the issue?

Thanks.

[ElementR]

I was just about to create a similar thread when I saw this one just now. I'm doing a full engine build and still have 2.7l cams and heads (not 2.8l). I get good alignment on the RH (passenger) side... the valley on the sprocket where the roller sits is just outboard of the exhaust cam alignment mark and I can count 16 rollers over to the intake cam roller which lands directly in the valley which is above cam alignment mark on the intake cam. That's all with the cam tensioner applying pressure to the chain so I know I'm good there.

Question I have is on the LH (driver) side... it appears that there is a slight off set built into the intake cam where the valley on the sprocket sits slightly inboard of the cam alignment mark. Does this make sense? I see no mention of it in the Bentley manual. I just want to be sure I have the right cam in there before I cause any damage. These were used (but supposedly fully functioning and tested) heads that I bought and upgraded the valvetrain + valve job, etc. My pictures below of the LH head...

And looking at the OP's pics, I wonder if your tensioner is applying full pressure because it seems that you are good with 16 rollers between notches but looks like a bit more pressure on the chain would pull the cam notch further inboard and align better. Otherwise it looks good IMO.

[Wagonholic]

Perfect timing for this thread to get bumped because I'm having the exact same problem on my passenger side. Installed 2.8 intake cams, installed new timing belt, and at TDC the driver's head is perfect but on the passenger side the exhaust cam lines up but not the driver's cam.

I'll need to get some pics later showing my problem

[Zba]

It's fine. If you move the sprockets one tooth to the left or right you are going to be further out than that. Therefore, this is it.

[ElementR]

Anyone have a pic of the LH (driver) side head with 2.7l cams at TDC? I would like to compare my cam lobes and make sure they are in the same position/look the same so I can verify my cams are the right cams for this engine. Thx

[zillarob]

This is one of those things that is kinda fkd on these cars and will bite you in the ass if you arent on top of it.
Trying to count the links and line up the marks is tough because of how the tensioners work.

The way I am most comfortable with is to line them up before you drop them in the head.
Just put the cams in the chain and pull the slack out, the notches should both point straight up.
Slip the tensioner in without letting the chain move on the sprockets, and drop it in the head.

Like this

[KSEADUB]

I've found the ross-tech schematic (linked below) to be very helpful.

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...5/P1347/004935

As others have stated, you can't worry too much about the position of the intake cam relative to the timing mark thanks to the variable position of the CCT. Position your exhaust cam at TDC (timing mark) then count rollers as per the ross tech diagram, and you should be good. The resolution of the cam chain is quite large so it should be fairly easy to see if you have done it right or not. I typically install the exhaust cam and chain first, then work the CCT and intake cam into the head while ensuring the correct link count. I don't have enough hands to drop both cams in at the same time AND keep the chain in the right spot. :)

After setting the cams relative to one another, you can rotate the cams a revolution and check the link count to be sure. Its as simple as that.

PS- make sure the pistons are off TDC or the heads are off the car first!


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[narth327]

what zillarob said. i also pay attention to where the chain lines up with the cog/gear, and use that as a reference due to the tensioner and angles the chain sits at. good luck

[tchuck]

This:

It's fine. If you move the sprockets one tooth to the left or right you are going to be further out than that. Therefore, this is it.

.
Considering the alignment in terms of teeth rather than distance makes it much easier.

[ElementR]

This is one of those things that is kinda fkd on these cars and will bite you in the ass if you arent on top of it.
Trying to count the links and line up the marks is tough because of how the tensioners work.

The way I am most comfortable with is to line them up before you drop them in the head.
Just put the cams in the chain and pull the slack out, the notches should both point straight up.
Slip the tensioner in without letting the chain move on the sprockets, and drop it in the head.

Like this

That image is very helpful so thanks for that. I see my intake cam lobes are pointed in the same direction. What threw me off is that the valley in the gear where the roller sits on this cam is slightly offset inboard of the notch on the cam. The RH side intake cam has the valley directly over the notch. I just didn't want to put the head on with the wrong cam and end up crashing valves. I did check the valve positions and seems like everything matches the piston position (engine at TDC with crank stop in place) so no obvious crashing of valves at least at TDC. Will rotate very slowly initially of course, but this gives me enough confidence to button down the cam caps now. Thx again.

[zillarob]

I gave up on doing it in the head a long time ago- just too many variables to get a 100% accurate read in the head.
If you cant tell with them in front of you, bout a snowballs chance in hell anybody on the interweb can tell you with any certainty.

Oh ya, double check the part #'s on your tensioners and make sure they are on the correct side. This is another one that happens often. (the 087 and 088 are the important parts)

[ElementR]

I set them and buttoned everything down last night. Timing marks look good and cam lobes match picture above so I feel fairly confident they're accurate. I actually had to move one cam a tooth after I initially bolted everything down since after releasing the tensioner lock, the cams moved enough off TDC to have me concerned... nothing like pulling all cam caps again, wiping RTV off and applying fresh RTV and blue Loc-tite again.

LH Head is now on the engine block, finally. Next up is new water pump, t-stat and timing components... have the lock bar for that and using the ECS writeup, Bentley manual and JHM CD as references. Then it's time to pull the engine from the car and swap over intake, turbos & manifolds, accessories, sensors, etc. Hope to have the car running this month - have been without it ever since my clutch gave up last Fall so I'm ready to drive it again.

Thanks for the tip on the tensioners. Looks like mine should be good as I can see in the last pic in my post above that it says 087 and that's the LH head (cylinders 4-6).

[RocksForsSale]

I set them and buttoned everything down last night. Timing marks look good and cam lobes match picture above so I feel fairly confident they're accurate. I actually had to move one cam a tooth after I initially bolted everything down since after releasing the tensioner lock, the cams moved enough off TDC to have me concerned... nothing like pulling all cam caps again, wiping RTV off and applying fresh RTV and blue Loc-tite again.

LH Head is now on the engine block, finally. Next up is new water pump, t-stat and timing components... have the lock bar for that and using the ECS writeup, Bentley manual and JHM CD as references. Then it's time to pull the engine from the car and swap over intake, turbos & manifolds, accessories, sensors, etc. Hope to have the car running this month - have been without it ever since my clutch gave up last Fall so I'm ready to drive it again.

Thanks for the tip on the tensioners. Looks like mine should be good as I can see in the last pic in my post above that it says 087 and that's the LH head (cylinders 4-6).

Where does the blue loc-tite go?


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[KSEADUB]

Where does the blue loc-tite go?


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Hopefully NOT on the cap bolts that feed the oil galleys in the caps...


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[01'C5 A6]

So it should be worded like this...
Passenger side cam timimg is to have 16 roller pins from notch to notch on camshaft.
Driver Side cam timing should have 14 rollers BETWEEN notches on camshaft

[ReggieNoble]

So it should be worded like this...
Passenger side cam timimg is to have 16 roller pins from notch to notch on camshaft.
Driver Side cam timing should have 14 rollers BETWEEN notches on camshaft

16 both sides

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[vavJETTAw36]

16 both sides

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Incorrect.

there are 16 rollers between the marks on Bank 1 (the outer links are ON the marks)
there are 14 rollers between the marks on Bank 2 (there are 2 links outside of the marks that arent part of the 14 count)

[01'C5 A6]

I've set my timing chains like this..using lock bar and crank pin..group 093 is telling me -25.0 bank 1. -24.0 bank 2....

[01'C5 A6]

Passenger side 2.7

[ReggieNoble]

Incorrect.

there are 16 rollers between the marks on Bank 1 (the outer links are ON the marks)
there are 14 rollers between the marks on Bank 2 (there are 2 links outside of the marks that arent part of the 14 count)

Seriously, I know you've been around awhile but I've done a lot of 2.7 and 2.8 heads. It's always been 16 both sides .Screenshot_2019-04-03-20-36-06.jpeg

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[vavJETTAw36]

Seriously, I know you've been around awhile but I've done a lot of 2.7 and 2.8 heads. It's always been 16 both sides .Screenshot_2019-04-03-20-36-06.jpeg

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You can see in the picture that they bend the reference point to the marks as to include the 2 outer marks. Unfortunately, these lines they depict do not exist. Its 14 between the marks


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[vavJETTAw36]

Here is some clarity without the added lines by Bentley:




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[01'C5 A6]

HMMM..I was certian i set it up this way.. with the ross-tech info.
this has my brain on scramble..
the pic i posted is bank one.. does this look like im counting teeth correctly?

[vavJETTAw36]

HMMM..I was certian i set it up this way.. with the ross-tech info.
this has my brain on scramble..
the pic i posted is bank one.. does this look like im counting teeth correctly?

Your marks from above look spot on.


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[01'C5 A6]

good to hear that...so im confident the other side is good.
p1340 and p1347...could these sensors infact be bad? how to test them?
and in group 093 im -25.0 and -24.0

[vavJETTAw36]

good to hear that...so im confident the other side is good.
p1340 and p1347...could these sensors infact be bad? how to test them?
and in group 093 im -25.0 and -24.0

Where’s your driver side head pics?


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[01'C5 A6]

couldnt get good photos but im certian count is good

[vavJETTAw36]

couldnt get good photos but im certian count is good

Cool. Yea that’s the easier one. You sure the belt was pretensioned correctly? Also, did you put on new tensioners?


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[01'C5 A6]

11 ft lbs pretension... while i tightened cam sprockets to 46ft lbs.
strumming the belt, it did sound tighter on one side of the idler bearing than the other.used the same tensioner..felt good ..only has 15k mi.on it oh chain tensioners....nonew pads tho

[vavJETTAw36]

11 ft lbs pretension... while i tightened cam sprockets to 46ft lbs.
strumming the belt, it did sound tighter on one side of the idler bearing than the other.used the same tensioner..felt good ..only has 15k mi.on it oh chain tensioners....nonew pads tho

Ok so you pulled the tensioners out. Can you confirm the part numbers on each side? Make note of which side.


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[01'C5 A6]

yes and did them one at a time, driver ends in 87 pass ends
in 88