Audi phasing out DSG on newer models

[roadrunner_oz]

Interesting article on how Audi is set to move away from DSG to the ZF autos as we now see in the new S4.

Basically stating that the DSG units can't handle the torque over 400Nm, heavier, not smooth enough.

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/a...16-gpkryu.html

[fhwang]

Doesn't the new R8s have dual clutch?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[forbiddenbeat]

That seems like a bad move for RS models. I'll be switching to an M3 in the future if that's true.

[Vermilion]

Better offer a manual then. If the RS3 doesn't have DSG or manual then I will be going to another brand.

[jpy1980]

I've never been in a zf transmission car. How does it compare to the dsg? Is it not as crisp and fast?

[saxon]

I've never been in a zf transmission car. How does it compare to the dsg? Is it not as crisp and fast?

they are pretty damn quick now compared to old autos. still not as fast as a dual clutch transmission but can be plenty good enough as seen in the rs7

[S3Danny]

I've never been in a zf transmission car. How does it compare to the dsg? Is it not as crisp and fast?

My SQ5 has no discernible delay from hitting the paddle to shifting. If it's not as quick as my S3, it's damn close to it.

Torque converters and turbos were made for each other. Coupled with AWD this paves the way for unbelievably quick 0-60 times.

[Z32drifter]

I think the goal is drivability. The auto box is perfect for 90% of the drivers. I think the majority of drivers would opt for the smoother action of the 8 speed auto. The torque converter gets rid of the clunky feeling of the DSG. 400Nm is only 300ft lbs, I don't buy the torque excuse. I like the DSG but would still go with a standard trans given the choice. They better offer a standard with the S4, I wouldn't be interested in a traditional auto tragic trans.

[will13k7]

DCT here we come?

[jpy1980]

Hmmm so what's the difference btw DSG, zf and DCT?

[LINDW4LL]

There have been a few manufacturers switching back from dual-clutch transmissions lately, citing reliability and smoothness complaints. What's interesting to me (and I've mentioned it in several threads at this point), is that Audi cites that "US customers demand the smoothness of a traditional auto" when speaking of the great ZF8 in the B9 S4/S5, yet they just switched to the DSG in all the brand new B9 A4s, A5s, and also the 8V A3...

Hmmm so what's the difference btw DSG, zf and DCT?

DSG and DCT are both dual-clutch transmissions. VW/Audi brands theirs as "DSG"- direct shift gearbox, while BMW calls theirs DCT (dual clutch transmission)

ZF is a company (who also produces dual-clutch gearboxes), but when people say ZF they are typically referring to the ZF 8-Speed automatic with a torque converter.

[roadrunner_oz]

The ZF auto in the BMW's is very good. Feels as quick as a DSG/DCT. Go test drive a 340i or M235i/240i ;)

[jpy1980]

There have been a few manufacturers switching back from dual-clutch transmissions lately, citing reliability and smoothness complaints. What's interesting to me (and I've mentioned it in several threads at this point), is that Audi cites that "US customers demand the smoothness of a traditional auto" when speaking of the great ZF8 in the B9 S4/S5, yet they just switched to the DSG in all the brand new B9 A4s, A5s, and also the 8V A3...



DSG and DCT are both dual-clutch transmissions. VW/Audi brands theirs as "DSG"- direct shift gearbox, while BMW calls theirs DCT (dual clutch transmission)

ZF is a company (who also produces dual-clutch gearboxes), but when people say ZF they are typically referring to the ZF 8-Speed automatic with a torque converter.

Thank you for that! Very informative

[ChrisF1]

I think it's a cost cutting others as some others have surmised. The DSG's seem to be not quite as reliable as the slushbox auto's. I know from personal experience as I Lemon'd my S4. Also had a mechatronics unit replaced in my A3 (common occurrence for high mileage cars). I've driven both Audi DSG's and their 8 speed auto and I'm not a fan of the auto. The DSG is part of what differentiated the product line for me from the competitors. It's sharp, crisp and very good. I will be sad to see them go and it will likely impact my future purchases.

[diztek]

No manual, no dsg, no sale.

[Dubfound]

The ZF auto in the BMW's is very good. Feels as quick as a DSG/DCT. Go test drive a 340i or M235i/240i ;)

Bingo... I currently have one in my 13 F30 335 with 63k miles on it tuned and no issues. It has the sport package with the sport auto shifts fast into gears. Good 8 speed auto!! I was looking at the s3 but ironically the DSG is what scared me away for maintenance and reliability. I crush my cars with miles. 37k miles a year typically

[YegorS]

It's interesting... The upcoming MK3 TT RS has 354 torque, the new S3 about 20 more. The TT RS has the new 7-speed DSG and S4/5 ZF. So the DSG can't handle 20 more torque? I call it BS!

[forbiddenbeat]

I've never been in a zf transmission car. How does it compare to the dsg? Is it not as crisp and fast?

Upshifting is quick, and relatively snappy on newer ZF models. The torque converter locks once out of the lower RPM band, so you get engine braking. But, upshifting feels a little more rubbery than the DSG, and downshifting is awful. There's a rubber-band-like feeling on the downshift where the car sort of surges in a weird way, and doesn't feel at all like a manual/automated manual. I didn't enjoy driving my A4 (which I owned for only a short while) on twisties, whereas the S3 is a pleasure.

To offer neither a manual nor a dual-clutch on RS models seems asinine, but maybe the US market truly has moved to RS models being status symbols and not meant for actual sport driving. The RS7 is probably a good indicator of this - lots of power, but a big car and an automatic.

Unfortunately, I feel like in the next two decades we'll see driving become more and more a niche hobby. Most people will opt to ride in self-driving cars or drive semi-automated electric cars. I joke with friends that someday driving will be relegated to what horseback-riding now is - an expensive hobby with a small following, where we'll only drive on tracks only and not on main roads. Maybe we'll even have special driving pants. :D

[hodrosS42001]

The new A4 has a 7 Speed dsg.. So does the A3.. They aren't phasing out anything.

[roadrunner_oz]

The new A4 has a 7 Speed dsg.. So does the A3.. They aren't phasing out anything.

That's the DQ250 & DQ500 DSG's. The new S4 has the ZF auto.

[RudyH]

It sounds more like Audi is positioning itself under Porsche, now that Porsche is moving into the sedan market with the upcoming smaller sedan 'Pajun'.
Where Audi is using ZF generic slush (transmissions found in Dodge's to Hyundai's), Porsche is using new ZF DCT (found in higher end sports cars)

You see it more and more with simply the S4 / SQ5 vs Cajun GTS, RS7 vs Panamera

[Thumper3]

It's interesting... The upcoming MK3 TT RS has 354 torque, the new S3 about 20 more. The TT RS has the new 7-speed DSG and S4/5 ZF. So the DSG can't handle 20 more torque? I call it BS!

Agree.

I have a ZF in my BMW 328, granted it's a diesel so that changes things a bit......but it is only "smooth" if you drive like a Prius. I drive it just like my Audi's....in SPORT and MANUAL mode only, and if you get on it with the throttle the shifts are harsh. Yes they can be pretty quick, definitely better than a traditional.....but they are cheap compromises for DCTs. It's fine in my 4 banger diesel wagon (wish we got the 6s over here!), it still blows away people that don't expect a wagon to move like that LOL, and the piggyback helps, but come on.....S cars with ZFs?

What they mean is that it would cost them more to design and build DCTs that handle the power. So on their lower ends they are going cheap. That's all it is. And I have no issue with that in the "A" cars, but to see them doing this to the S4 and S5........sad. they should at least offer the option and charge what they have to. I know I would gladly pay more to get a DCT, as it stands, I'm not paying a dime for a performance car with a ZF.

The new TTRS will replace my S4, no idea what we'll get when the lease on the S3 is up but it might not be an Audi based on their new designs and now this.

[JD23]

The DSG in the S4 had abysmal reliability and Audi needs to reduce warranty costs. The ZF8 is not as performance-oriented as the DSG, but it is close enough for the intent of the S4. I doubt that the RS4/5 will have the ZF8. I do find it rather amusing that there are now DSG snobs who denigrate a torque converter automatic in the same fashion that MT snobs deride the DSG.

[S3Danny]

Upshifting is quick, and relatively snappy on newer ZF models. The torque converter locks once out of the lower RPM band, so you get engine braking. But, upshifting feels a little more rubbery than the DSG, and downshifting is awful. There's a rubber-band-like feeling on the downshift where the car sort of surges in a weird way, and doesn't feel at all like a manual/automated manual. I didn't enjoy driving my A4 (which I owned for only a short while) on twisties, whereas the S3 is a pleasure.

To offer neither a manual nor a dual-clutch on RS models seems asinine, but maybe the US market truly has moved to RS models being status symbols and not meant for actual sport driving. The RS7 is probably a good indicator of this - lots of power, but a big car and an automatic.

Unfortunately, I feel like in the next two decades we'll see driving become more and more a niche hobby. Most people will opt to ride in self-driving cars or drive semi-automated electric cars. I joke with friends that someday driving will be relegated to what horseback-riding now is - an expensive hobby with a small following, where we'll only drive on tracks only and not on main roads. Maybe we'll even have special driving pants. :D

The upshifts and downshifts in our SQ5 are as quick and as harsh as my S3. I would wager the trans tuning varies from model to model, with sport models getting more aggressive tuning.


Manuals, torque converter autos, and DCTs can all be either good, great, or terrible. All of it depends on the final execution, not just the list of parts put together.

[forbiddenbeat]

The upshifts and downshifts in our SQ5 are as quick and as harsh as my S3. I would wager the trans tuning varies from model to model, with sport models getting more aggressive tuning.


Manuals, torque converter autos, and DCTs can all be either good, great, or terrible. All of it depends on the final execution, not just the list of parts put together.

Agreed, but it's the downshifts that I think set apart clutch-based or torque-converter-based transmissions. A torque-converter can't disengage, so the downshifts always feel kind of rubbery (at least in my experience).

[Raacerx]

Bingo... I currently have one in my 13 F30 335 with 63k miles on it tuned and no issues. It has the sport package with the sport auto shifts fast into gears. Good 8 speed auto!! I was looking at the s3 but ironically the DSG is what scared me away for maintenance and reliability. I crush my cars with miles. 37k miles a year typically

My A3 3.2L has 170k on it, and 20+ track days on it. I've had the DSG serviced twice.

It slipped a couple times when I had a Unitronic DSG tune; soon as I switched to another, it never happened again.