ultra crapttro

[quattrorally]

All I have to say is that the B8 was my last Audi.

The full time quattro was one of the main reasons that I love Audi, and why I stayed away from the A3 line.

Tesla looks very tempting right now !

[dbuxton13]

Dude, do some research. The ultra Quattro is only on the Ultra variant of the A4, which is only available in Europe. The regular A4/S4 still use the permanent crown gear center diff. Nothing has changed, get a grip.

[quattrorally]

if so than cool, but I read several articles and they all point at multi clutch setup...

[LINDW4LL]

The B9 A4 does have full time quattro.

[jmeenach]

OP, this has been covered pretty extensively on this forum, as it was originally a concern for many of us. I recommend reading up on it. Lots of great info!

[cameraz]

if so than cool, but I read several articles and they all point at multi clutch setup...

The 7-speed transmission has a dual clutch, but the quattro is Torsen-based, the way its been in A4s since day one.

[B7Night]

It is a concern for those of us that drive the Allroad. It's been confirmed that the 2017 will be crippled with the new Quattro Ultra. If you look at the Audi video that showed the system in action, and read the subtitles since its in German, All Audi's except the A8, and S models will be getting the new system as the updated models are released. I'm guessing they held off on the A4 for a bit to see how things go on the Allroad. Since the A4 is something like 40% of sales, it could be financial suicide to release it this soon on their most popular model and have a massive sales revolt. It looks like I'm going to have to switch to the BMW 3 series wagon when my Allroad needs replacing, because there is no way that I will drive a front wheel drive based automatic part time Audi. Complete sacrilege! I can go to other companies for that type of system and spend much less. BMW, Jag, Dodge Charger, and Cadillac ATS, and CTS, at least all disconnect the front axel to preserve handling not the rear, leaving the rear drive handling intact. Besides the old quattro system was nothing more than drive shafts and differentials aided by the ABS, and bullet proof. This new system has clutches, actuator motors, even more sensors, weighs less, and can't handle the power of Audi's more powerful engines, so I question its durability. If it's implemented as well as the direct injection was in 2006, the company is in for a bumpy ride. My 2006 A4 lost the cam follower, and by the time the light came on, The engine head, both cams, the follower, and fuel pump had to be replaced. It was just within warranty but still it would have been somewhere between $3500, to $4000 to fix a car with 108,000 miles. And from what I have heard, to replace the clutch pack on a BMW AWD unit is about $4000, so I can only imagine it won't be cheap on an Audi either.

[dbuxton13]

European market only still. You couldn't get it in the US even if you wanted it.

[LINDW4LL]

European market only still. You couldn't get it in the US even if you wanted it.

My understanding is that it will be equipped on the allroad worldwide. Here is a snippet from Audi Canada's site (B9 allroad is not listed on US site yet).

--

The Canadian premiere of the new and improved quattro technology.

The all-new A4 allroad quattro is the first Audi model in Canada to feature the latest generation of quattro technology. This improvement to the industry-leading quattro all-wheel drive system is designed specifically for Audi models with longitudinally-mounted front engines.

The new system’s intelligent control works predictively and reactively, utilizing an array of sensors that continually analyze driving dynamics, road conditions and driver behaviour. As a result, the quattro all-wheel drive system is always on the ready, yet deactivated when not necessary, to aid in more efficient fuel consumption.

[RudyH]

Besides, threatening to go to Tesla after complaining about ultra Quattro is kind of a laugh...
'I don't like how an electrical clutch governs traction by a computer'

[Mr.Audi]

Besides, threatening to go to Tesla after complaining about ultra Quattro is kind of a laugh...
'I don't like how an electrical clutch governs traction by a computer'

^^^ THIS. lol

[cameraz]

As much as I don't want "Ultra Quattro" in my next car, it will behave so seamlessly that you will never know you have it. But it will give the Bimmer boys just one more reason to claim that all Audis are front wheel drive.

[JD23]

I shudder when I even ponder the reliability of Gen 1 quattro ultra.

[LINDW4LL]

As much as I don't want "Ultra Quattro" in my next car, it will behave so seamlessly that you will never know you have it.

Agreed 100%


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[hyperunion]

I shudder when I even ponder the reliability of Gen 1 quattro ultra.

Exactly... Especially when over 375lbs of stg 1 torque goes through those clutch packs that's replacing the older rear diff setups..

[Jet Jockey]

Here's a new article on the new A4/Allroad and the new Quattro Ultra...

Exactly what I thought and glad I bought the new B9 A4 now because I'm not sure if the A4 will continue with the TorSen based Quattro in the long term.

http://jalopnik.com/maybe-audi-doesn...-wa-1784389819

[cameraz]

Here's a new article on the new A4/Allroad and the new Quattro Ultra...

Exactly what I thought and glad I bought the new B9 A4 now because I'm not sure if the A4 will continue with the TorSen based Quattro in the long term.

http://jalopnik.com/maybe-audi-doesn...-wa-1784389819

Anybody want to draft a petition? I'll gladly sign it.
.
.
.

[Fantasiamon]

I have my heart set on a B9 Allroad (really only because I can't get an Avant) as a replacement for my TDI JSW and am not very pleased with the news about Ultra. Going to try to at least hold out until a 2018 model but with the buyback timeline for my TDI I'm not sure if I will make it or not. I sudder at the thought of owning first model year.


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[chris690]

Just got out of a small training session on the new Allroad, unfortunately the max torque that the quattro ultra can take is around 365 ft-lbs in order to still decouple/couple on the fly. The coupling process takes about 250 milliseconds, in dynamic and offroad it'll stay fully active, it's actually a good system by the sound of it, other than if you want to mod the power.

[Fantasiamon]

Just got out of a small training session on the new Allroad, unfortunately the max torque that the quattro ultra can take is around 365 ft-lbs in order to still decouple/couple on the fly. The coupling process takes about 250 milliseconds, in dynamic and offroad it'll stay fully active, it's actually a good system by the sound of it, other than if you want to mod the power.

365 ft-lbs is not too shabby though (at least to what I'm used to with my TDI). The question is though is if you tune it to around 365 will it hold up still.

[hyperunion]

365 ft-lbs is not too shabby though (at least to what I'm used to with my TDI). The question is though is if you tune it to around 365 will it hold up still.

Exactly... Since a simple stg 1 is already at 375lbs... The tuning companies will most likely have to restrict torque when offering b9 allroad tunes... Fun!

[LINDW4LL]

Keep in mind, that may just be Audi's typical conservative figures at work. Just like how Audi says they couldn't use the DL501 DSG in the RS7 because it is only rated for 406ft/lb, and yet tuned S6/S7s are putting over 700 ft/lb through them without issue.




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[phanatic]

Just got out of a small training session on the new Allroad, unfortunately the max torque that the quattro ultra can take is around 365 ft-lbs in order to still decouple/couple on the fly. The coupling process takes about 250 milliseconds, in dynamic and offroad it'll stay fully active, it's actually a good system by the sound of it, other than if you want to mod the power.

So, are you saying it doesn't decouple in dynamic mode? Does this mean you could have a high torque tune with program switching and just leave it in dynamic with the tune activated and then switch to stock program and use a different mode if you want?

[hyperunion]

Keep in mind, that may just be Audi's typical conservative figures at work. Just like how Audi says they couldn't use the DL501 DSG in the RS7 because it is only rated for 406ft/lb, and yet tuned S6/S7s are putting over 700 ft/lb through them without issue.




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That's for a transmission.. and that's only a matter of time... .. this is a specific decoupling clutch pack attached to the rear differentials... Yes we have no idea how tuning will affect this for early b9 allroad owners... Time will tell.. and those early owners will be the brave souls of early testers and guinea pigs... Especially for the over 380,lbs to 400lbs torque potential of downpipe stg2 tunes and possible mqb s3 ihi is38 turbo upgrades... Unless the tuners begin to say these upgrades will only be reserved for the standard quattro system in the a4s......

[B7Night]

I wish I could find it, but the US press release does mention Quattro Ultra for the USA Allroad. Other than a small fuel economy improvement, 100% torque shift to the front is said to be possible. All that means is that the clutch is opened and the car runs in front drive. The entire industry likes to talk about pushing power back and forth. For the most part its a matter of clamping down on the spinning wheels brakes, or just opening the clutch powering the slipping wheels. Without the center diff, driveline and tire wear will be pronounced if the system is engaged to often. Just like the old part time pickups. If you leave the system engaged, the front and rear axels can't rotate independently, causing tire scrub, and driveline strain going around corners. Depending on how much the system engages, you could also end up having to rotate tires really often. Front drive cars wear front tire rubber 3 times faster than the rear rubber, just ask the tire manufactures. Eventually that causes difference in tire diameter, so when the system engages and the clutch locks the axels together, the axel with the more worn tires will want to rotate slightly faster, but it can't. That will cause tire scrub, which isn't exactly conducive to grip and causes driveline strain.

BMW is also entering this sacrilege world of front drive. the new 2016 X1 is based of the front drive Mini Clubman platform. It engages the rear wheels as it sees fit. If both companies aren't careful, the purists will leave. Close to $50,000 for a primarily front drive German road car won't go over well with that group. Like I said in a previous post, I can spend way less for a front drive based part time 4WD system from a different company. I'm not willing to pay the German price premium unless its permanent full time, or a rear drive based system that disconnects the front axel. Sadly, way to many people are buying these cars because of the status of the Label on the grill, and not really caring about the mechanicals.

Because of my kayak, and one car garage, I need the Allroad wagon. It has more storage than an A4. The roofline is longer than a cars, making it easy to spread the crossbars to the proper distance. The low height makes it easy to get the boat on and off by myself, unlike the taller Q5. The low height also makes it possible to hang the kayak from the ceiling over the Allroad without the two hitting when I park underneath, unlike what would happen with a taller Q5. Maybe by some miracle, Audi will offer the 3.0 TDI, as rumor has it that that engine will keep the 8 speed ZF and the torsen center diff.

[hyperunion]

I wish I could find it, but the US press release does mention Quattro Ultra for the USA Allroad. Other than a small fuel economy improvement, 100% torque shift to the front is said to be possible. All that means is that the clutch is opened and the car runs in front drive. The entire industry likes to talk about pushing power back and forth. For the most part its a matter of clamping down on the spinning wheels brakes, or just opening the clutch powering the slipping wheels. Without the center diff, driveline and tire wear will be pronounced if the system is engaged to often. Just like the old part time pickups. If you leave the system engaged, the front and rear axels can't rotate independently, causing tire scrub, and driveline strain going around corners. Depending on how much the system engages, you could also end up having to rotate tires really often. Front drive cars wear front tire rubber 3 times faster than the rear rubber, just ask the tire manufactures. Eventually that causes difference in tire diameter, so when the system engages and the clutch locks the axels together, the axel with the more worn tires will want to rotate slightly faster, but it can't. That will cause tire scrub, which isn't exactly conducive to grip and causes driveline strain.

BMW is also entering this sacrilege world of front drive. the new 2016 X1 is based of the front drive Mini Clubman platform. It engages the rear wheels as it sees fit. If both companies aren't careful, the purists will leave. Close to $50,000 for a primarily front drive German road car won't go over well with that group. Like I said in a previous post, I can spend way less for a front drive based part time 4WD system from a different company. I'm not willing to pay the German price premium unless its permanent full time, or a rear drive based system that disconnects the front axel. Sadly, way to many people are buying these cars because of the status of the Label on the grill, and not really caring about the mechanicals.

Because of my kayak, and one car garage, I need the Allroad wagon. It has more storage than an A4. The roofline is longer than a cars, making it easy to spread the crossbars to the proper distance. The low height makes it easy to get the boat on and off by myself, unlike the taller Q5. The low height also makes it possible to hang the kayak from the ceiling over the Allroad without the two hitting when I park underneath, unlike what would happen with a taller Q5. Maybe by some miracle, Audi will offer the 3.0 TDI, as rumor has it that that engine will keep the 8 speed ZF and the torsen center diff.

That would be the dream allroad..v6 diesel and zf8speed that can handle well over 460lbs of torque.

[Fantasiamon]

That would be the dream allroad..v6 diesel and zf8speed that can handle well over 460lbs of torque.

We can all wish......but there is nothing in the press release even hinting at this. VW/Audi likes to crush our dreams.....not make them come true.

[B7Night]

We can all wish......but there is nothing in the press release even hinting at this. VW/Audi likes to crush our dreams.....not make them come true.

The Germans have a tendency to decide on something, and it's expected that everyone falls in line, regardless of what we think is right/wrong. We Americans aren't wired that way. Last time that happened to us, we told the Britts to go fly a kite, and formed our own country. The really sad thing is that Audi must know of the potential revolt. Go look at the Allroad info on the Audi site, and the brochure. All that is said, is that the new system distributes torque and helps efficiency. Nothing about disconnecting the rear axel and running in front drive. it's really misleading information. Also, there wasn't much of an efficiency gain. The new model gets 2mpg better in the city, and the same on the highway. It'll be interesting to see how long before there are failures of the driveline. Both BMW and even Subaru, can and do have clutch pack failures, and they're not cheap to fix. BMW's is $4000 to fix. Chris690 mentions that the system stays locked or active in "offload" and "Dynamic", that's another source of trouble. Without a center differential, if the clutches are locked, the wheels will scrub going around a corner. The front and rear axels turn at different speeds in cornering, that can't happened if the clutch is locked, This scrubbing will put wear on tires, and stress, bearings and other driveline components. The only way to stop that is to open the clutch letting it slip the rear driveshaft when the car goes around a corner, both giving the car a front wheel drive bias, and over time really wearing the clutch pack. Rotating your tires will be absolutely critical. If this system is a proactive as it says, the clutch will lock before slippage occurs, meaning lots of 4WD on dry pavement. If you are lazy about rotation, one axels tires will eventually become slightly smaller diameter that the others, and since there is no center diff, and only a locked clutch, the axels won't be able to rotate according to the diameter of the tires on them. The axels will start fighting each other, and tear up the system. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope the whole Quattro Ultra thing backfires on Audi, worse than the diesel debacle, They've already had issues with new technology, such as the direct injection 2.0t cam follower issue, which turned into a big headache for them. I ended up with an entirely new engine from the head up because of that. Though, nothing can top the "unintended acceleration" issue from the 80's. As you can probably tell, I'm kinda furious at Audi at the moment. Hey Audi, if you're listening, I refuse to spend $50,000 on a front drive based automatic part time 4WD Audi, the system can't even qualify as AWD. i'll by a BMW 3 series wagon instead. At least that car disconnects the front axel and leaves the rear drive intact. Give us our 40/60 split Torsen diff back!!!

[Fantasiamon]

The Germans have a tendency to decide on something, and it's expected that everyone falls in line, regardless of what we think is right/wrong. We Americans aren't wired that way. Last time that happened to us, we told the Britts to go fly a kite, and formed our own country. The really sad thing is that Audi must know of the potential revolt. Go look at the Allroad info on the Audi site, and the brochure. All that is said, is that the new system distributes torque and helps efficiency. Nothing about disconnecting the rear axel and running in front drive. it's really misleading information. Also, there wasn't much of an efficiency gain. The new model gets 2mpg better in the city, and the same on the highway. It'll be interesting to see how long before there are failures of the driveline. Both BMW and even Subaru, can and do have clutch pack failures, and they're not cheap to fix. BMW's is $4000 to fix. Chris690 mentions that the system stays locked or active in "offload" and "Dynamic", that's another source of trouble. Without a center differential, if the clutches are locked, the wheels will scrub going around a corner. The front and rear axels turn at different speeds in cornering, that can't happened if the clutch is locked, This scrubbing will put wear on tires, and stress, bearings and other driveline components. The only way to stop that is to open the clutch letting it slip the rear driveshaft when the car goes around a corner, both giving the car a front wheel drive bias, and over time really wearing the clutch pack. Rotating your tires will be absolutely critical. If this system is a proactive as it says, the clutch will lock before slippage occurs, meaning lots of 4WD on dry pavement. If you are lazy about rotation, one axels tires will eventually become slightly smaller diameter that the others, and since there is no center diff, and only a locked clutch, the axels won't be able to rotate according to the diameter of the tires on them. The axels will start fighting each other, and tear up the system. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope the whole Quattro Ultra thing backfires on Audi, worse than the diesel debacle, They've already had issues with new technology, such as the direct injection 2.0t cam follower issue, which turned into a big headache for them. I ended up with an entirely new engine from the head up because of that. Though, nothing can top the "unintended acceleration" issue from the 80's. As you can probably tell, I'm kinda furious at Audi at the moment. Hey Audi, if you're listening, I refuse to spend $50,000 on a front drive based automatic part time 4WD Audi, the system can't even qualify as AWD. i'll by a BMW 3 series wagon instead. At least that car disconnects the front axel and leaves the rear drive intact. Give us our 40/60 split Torsen diff back!!!

If they gave us the much desired Avant again wagon lovers (like myself) wouldn't be forced into the Allroad and therefore wouldn't be forced into the Ultra. It's a bummer all around to be honest. I don't really want more ride height in my wagon but have no option.

[Jet Jockey]

The Germans have a tendency to decide on something, and it's expected that everyone falls in line, regardless of what we think is right/wrong.

This is partially true and present in other Euro cultures (English, French, Italians and so on). They are "old cultures" with pre-set ways that are still to this day hard to change.

This said Americans (and Canadians) are not better in a lot of other ways... Americans (politicians via foreign policy) stick their noses in everyone else's affairs and try to tell other countries how it should be... This in return gave you a bloody nose more than once so let us just leave the "cultural" thing behind please.

On another subject you brought up and again this is "typically American"... It is all the bullshit around the Audi "unintended acceleration" problems in the 80s... This is a totally made up American thing with stupid drivers that were actually pressing on the accelerator instead of the brakes or a combination of both! In one of these "high profile" cases, it was proven that the mother that killed her child by running over her was totally drunk! What didn't help was the 60 Minutes show having a segment on these "out of control Audis" which later was proven wrong and 60 Minutes had to retract and apologise on the air for that segment.

Anyway it is not the first time us North Americans wonder why we don't get certain Audi models here on this side of the pond but that's all up to their marketing department (they don't even listen to inputs from their deal dealers for Christ sake, do you think they are going to listen to you? So if they lose sales and their numbers drop because of this, they will eventually readjust the models they bring over to North America, that's if they survive the Dieselgate!

[Fantasiamon]

This is partially true and present in other Euro cultures (English, French, Italians and so on). They are "old cultures" with pre-set ways that are still to this day hard to change.

This said Americans (and Canadians) are not better in a lot of other ways... Americans (politicians via foreign policy) stick their noses in everyone else's affairs and try to tell other countries how it should be... This in return gave you a bloody nose more than once so let us just leave the "cultural" thing behind please.

On another subject you brought up and again this is "typically American"... It is all the bullshit around the Audi "unintended acceleration" problems in the 80s... This is a totally made up American thing with stupid drivers that were actually pressing on the accelerator instead of the brakes or a combination of both! In one of these "high profile" cases, it was proven that the mother that killed her child by running over her was totally drunk! What didn't help was the 60 Minutes show having a segment on these "out of control Audis" which later was proven wrong and 60 Minutes had to retract and apologise on the air for that segment.

Anyway it is not the first time us North Americans wonder why we don't get certain Audi models here on this side of the pond but that's all up to their marketing department (they don't even listen to inputs from their deal dealers for Christ sake, do you think they are going to listen to you? So if they lose sales and their numbers drop because of this, they will eventually readjust the models they bring over to North America, that's if they survive the Dieselgate!

Such a cheery read....

[Jet Jockey]

Such a cheery read....

Yes it is, isn't it?

But then again it is a thread on the "Ultra Crapttro". :-)

[LINDW4LL]

quatto ultra is utilized on the 6MT B9 A4

https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/new...l-transmission

The A4 quattro manual, like the A4 allroad, features a new quattro all-wheel drive system with ultra technology that is optimized for fully-variable torque distribution and efficiency. The new drivetrain utilizes an electronically controlled multi-plate clutch along with a decoupling rear axle differential to achieve fully variable torque distribution. This quattro system with ultra technology allows for intelligent, proactive control of the all-wheel drive system to predictively modify the torque application as the driving situation or road conditions require.

[RudyH]

The Germans have a tendency to decide on something, and it's expected that everyone falls in line, regardless of what we think is right/wrong. We Americans aren't wired that way. Last time that happened to us, we told the Britts to go fly a kite, and formed our own country. The really sad thing is that Audi must know of the potential revolt.!

I wish someone would revolt against America, so we wouldn't have these disgusting things called SUV's and CUV's littering the highways and roads.

Unfortunately the Germans listened to Americans, and now have a Q3, Q5 and Q7 to replace the A3 Sportback, A4 Avant and A6 Avant



Interesting fact as well...the largest ancestry group in the US is Germans. So in the end this is completely an American German problem...it sucks for us Canadian Germans, and Canadian French (ya I am looking at the folks in Quebec) cause they are the only other group that seems to get it

[o1turbo30v]

So is it safe to say that Ultra Quattro is basically a re-branded Haldex unit?

[LINDW4LL]

So is it safe to say that Ultra Quattro is basically a re-branded Haldex unit?

In principles, yes. In engineering details, no, because the key components are developed by supplier Magna. The biggest difference is the multi-plate clutch. While Haldex is actuated hydraulically, the Magna clutch is operated by electric motor via spindle drive. This results in smoother engagement and disengagement, and thus the switch between FWD and 4WD modes is nearly imperceptible. Another key difference from the Haldex arrangement is that the Quattro Ultra can disconnect the propshaft completely.


Also, Ive not heard yet what percentage of power this system can send to the rear. I believe even the latest gen Haldex is limited to 50% unless the front wheels lose ALL traction, which isn't much of a real world scenario IMO. If the ultra system is similar, that would be a big downgrade from the 80+ % that can be sent rearward with the Torsten T3 and Crown Diff in the B8 models.


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[hyperunion]

quatto ultra is utilized on the 6MT B9 A4

https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/new...l-transmission

That's a dumb decision!. Especially for manual Lovers who wish to tune...

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[JD23]

That's a dumb decision!. Especially for manual Lovers who wish to tune...

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By restricting the MT model to an AWD system that will not appeal to enthusiasts, Audi will use the likely poor sales as a reason to discontinue the MT in a few years.

[hyperunion]

By restricting the MT model to an AWD system that will not appeal to enthusiasts, Audi will use the likely poor sales as a reason to discontinue the MT in a few years.

Most likely!!!! Besides who gets a low torque stg1 file these days.....

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[LINDW4LL]

Of course this is speculation, and time will tell, but given Audis history I am quite confident that the torque rating will not present an issue.


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